Talk:Editions of Dungeons & Dragons

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[edit] Individual AD&D entrys

Since there is a large difference between the different edditions of D&D, I was wondering if it would be worthwhile to construct seperate articles for each eddition of D&D (Basic-Expert, AD&D 1e, AD&D 2e, I'm not sure about constucting one for the current game, as much of the main article has most of the information on that. My primary reason for stateing this that there are several fans of the previous games who do not appriciate the current rulesystem as demonstated by Dragonsfoot.org, and if information from this page were taken, and given lengthy expansions, it could easily make exellent individual articles. Avador 05:52, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

I have no objection to this but no motivation to be involved in it either. So if you want to make an article just make sure you have enough encyclopedic edition specific information tand write it. I think this article is important as a comparison for people interested in the game but only familar with some editions (old or new) to understand the key differences - Waza 06:15, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
I agree: this article is about the changes between the editions, and should not detail everything in each. Separate articles, however, are definitely a good idea. Secondary Oak 19:31, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Yes AD&D is a completely different game than the various forms of D&D. While both originate form the same concept it should be noted that they are NOT the same game and not intended to play compatibly with each other. As those people who may use Wikipedia to find out information may not understand and be confused when picking up used older editions thinking they can join their friends who have copies of materials currently in print only to find they have little in common for rules other than general roleplaying ideas and place/people names. 71.71.79.235 15:23, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 4th Edition?

Is there any information about 4th edition, either on the internet or otherwise? Rumors, etc.? I'm not eager to get there---on the contrary, I'm hoping all my books don't become outdated! Just was wondering if it's been talked about at all.

The awnser is simple: no such thing exists. Given the amount of time between the updates & releases of the previos editions and the current popularity of the d20 system, I'd say you do not have to worry about that happing for a long time. Avador 08:17, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

There was a rash of rumours over the early part of August, but it's died down. There was no announcement at GenCon, or anything like that; the closest thing was a strong hint that there would be a big announcement, which may or may not be 4E, at Winter Fantasy early next year. So it seems pretty safe to say there's no definite information and won't be until next February at the earliest. And of course, there is bound to be at least several months, most likely around a year, between any announcement and the actual release. PurplePlatypus 23:53, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

There is information look at the D&D Editions article

Okay, on the wizards forums, people found a hidden forum for moderators to talk about 4th edition. People started posting what was said from that forum in the main forums, but then their posts got edited. Does anyone know what was said in that forum before it got closed to non moderator's eyes? Maybe someone here can contact one of the people who saw into the forum before it was shut down? --74.140.132.156 04:49, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

http://digital50.com/news/items/BW/2001/07/14/20070816005037/dungeons-dragonsr-flashes-4-ward-at-gen-con.html announces fourth edition, currently (Aug 16th, 2007) the wizards D&D site displays onlyu a countdown with 5 hours left.

Someone has recently updated the class lists for 4th edition stating that Barbarian will also be removed and 'Warlord' will be added as a class. There is no link to a source supporting this and I was wondering if anyone could supply a source, if not it should be removed as speculation. Stoney2020 (talk) 15:39, 6 May 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stoney2020 (talk • contribs) 15:28, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

is any of the 4th edition rumors actually confirmed? I refuse to believe that WotC would be SO stupid... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.47.161.191 (talk) 18:20, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Mr. Holmes

Is there a reason why John Eric Holmes isn't named in this article? If DCS gets a mention for his cover for the first Basic set, shouldn't JEH get a mention for his work on it?

The Holmes Basic set served as a introduction to either D&D or AD&D. (I need to look up a citation for this.) The original set remained in print until 1979, until it was replaced by the 1980/81 Expert set.

Just wanted to mention them & look up the cite before making these edits.

--Malirath 21:56, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Stupid template usage

Section Specific differences between versions of Dungeons & Dragons: "This article does not cite any references or sources!" Oh!! Isn't it obvious what are the sources?? Some fool littering around templates again! Said: Rursus ☺ ★ 10:19, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

I came to the talk page to add exactly the same message. The sources are the books themselves, just like you don't reference a novel when discussing its plot. Removing the template now. -- Mike Blackney 00:44, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
While the template was probably overkill, the article could use more specific <ref>-style citations. Knowing which page a given detail is from would make it easier to other editors to check citations. Something like Dungeons & Dragons#Game mechanics, which I think does an exceptional job. — Alan De Smet | Talk 16:24, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reliability verification for Slashdot.org claim

Someone has requested a reliability check on the Slashdot.org claim about anecdotal negative response for 4th ed. Here's what I can turn up. Next Generation called the author, Michael "Zonk" Zenke one of "Gaming's Top 50 Journalists" [1]. In addition to writing for Slashdot, he writes for respected sites The Escapist ([2], click "Advanced Search" then select his name from the Author list) and writes "Massive Update" for 1up. He's a professional game journalist with wide experience in the field and accolades from others. He was present for the announcement and at the convention immediately after the announcement. He seems about as reliable as any games journalist can be. — Alan De Smet | Talk 01:39, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:MonsterManual-v35-Cover.jpg

Image:MonsterManual-v35-Cover.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 02:22, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 4dventure to be deleted

I've put 4dventure up for deletion. Not even WotC is using "4dventure" anymore, having abandoned the term after only a few months. And the core topic, 4th ed, isn't published yet, so it's hard to justify its own article instead of the coverage already in Editions of D&D. I'm just giving people a heads up in case they see anything in 4dventure they think should be copied into this article. I don't see anything that important myself, but a second opinion seems a good idea. — Alan De Smet | Talk 00:30, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cutting explanation of TSR's bankruptcy

I realized I cut the paragraph that explained TSR's bankruptcy almost completely. But causes are something that have to be interpreted, and hence it's important to have citation and frequently to make it clear in the article who thinks that explanation is the correct one. In this case, I felt that at least some of the causes given were fan complaints more than real explanations. TSR failed because of "raised costs"? I was given to understand that one of the reasons they failed is because the Encyclopedia Magica set was sold at below cost. Did "the relentless persecution of perceived copyright infringement" really have any major effect on TSR? Were the supplements produced really of "of declining quality and little value to players or DM's"? I find "AD&D 2nd edition came perilously close to being the last version of the game ever published." completely bogus; the D&D name held and holds great value, and would have been sold to a buyer in about any conceivable circumstance.

Before any of it is replaced we should find a source that we actually quote as to the causes of TSR's decline.--Prosfilaes 01:44, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

According to Ryan Dancey, "AD&D 2nd edition came perilously close to being the last version of the game ever published" because TSR had so heavily borrowed against the valuable copyright and intellectual property of AD&D (their only real thing of value at the time) that it was doubtful that Wizards of the Coast could extricate the game from all of the loans on which it was held as collateral. - Iceberg3k —Preceding unsigned comment added by 135.214.42.68 (talk) 19:53, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
That would be a really good addition. What's the source for the quote? — Alan De Smet | Talk 02:55, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
that would be the "Ryan Dancey Report". no idea what better to call it, but it is included in the third post of this thread on WotC website. the above sums up pretty much what Dancey said about TSR and AD&D in general. http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=919702 . also there is a page http://www.highprogrammer.com/alan/rants/tsr.html that has a link at the very bottom, to an archived version of the "Dancey Report" shadzar-talk 07:00, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
I've re-read the report, and I'm not sold on the summary that was deleted, and I'm certainly not finding the quote that Iceberg3k/135.214.42.68 gave. That said, thanks for the reminder, it did let me add a useful entery to TSR, Inc. — Alan De Smet | Talk 20:26, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Deleting link to dnd4.com

I've deleted the link to dnd4.com several times and plan to continue doing so. My reasoning, in a nutshell, is that we should keep our links to a minimum. If two sites present significantly different information, linking both might be appropriate. But if they present the same information, we should try to pick the more complete, better cited one. Between dnd4 and enworld, the choice is clear. dnd4 doesn't cite where its information is from and it doesn't provide a feed of new information announcements. enworld does. — Alan De Smet | Talk 16:58, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Alan has requested that I support the reasons for putting a link on to dnd4.com on the external links section of the dungeons and dragons page. Although enworld.org does a better job at citing it's sources it is my belief that dnd4.com does a better job at giving readers a clear cut and dry place to inform themselves regarding upcoming dnd 4e information. Enworld.org also has information on a broad range of topics, sometimes almost too much information, and the user interface can get confusing because of this. If you want to go to a site that has citations, go to enworld.org. If you want a site were the information is easy to read and only dungeons and dragons 4th edition related, dnd4.com is probably a better choice. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.179.11.2 (talk • contribs) February 15, 2008

Thanks for replying. Perhaps unsurprisingly, I disagree. I agree we should link to a site collecting information about 4e. It's not appropriate for Wikipedia to collect every rumor, nor to be an exhaustive listing of every possible detail. So such a link is appropriate as a "Sites with other meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article...." Wikipedia's goal is to be a great reference, so links to external sites that are good references are superior to those that aren't. enworld provides citations, dnd4 doesn't, so as a reference site it's better. Now, we could include two links, but given the goal that Wikipedia is not a mirror or a repository of links, we should err on the side of fewer external links, not more. All that said, I'd love for another opinion on the matter. Am I being overzealous in trying to keep the external link list pruned? — Alan De Smet | Talk 23:57, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Inaccuracy

It says that unlike previous editions, there will be more than three core books, yadda yadda yadda. This is untrue, though not for the reason that people might think. The problem is that previous editions -also- included more than three core books - all core means, in WotC parlance, since at the end of second edition in fact, is "non campaign specific". Claiming this is a change new to 4th edition is erroneous. 208.51.48.155 (talk) 19:21, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

You are correct, however "core rules" and "core rulebook" refer specifically to the 3 main rulebooks. -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 01:33, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
Until 3.5, there was a singular PHB and DMG. The PHB II and DMG II only showed up very late in 3.5. The citation for the claim quotes WotC staffers (you can check the podcast yourself), and is pretty clear; this is a different view of "core." He speaks of specifically withholding mosters from the first MM to communicate this new expectation. Why would the speaker feel the need to "train people" if it's the current status quo? — Alan De Smet | Talk 05:29, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
The product pages for the PHBII and DMGII describe each of them as a "D&D Rules Supplement", while the product pages for the 3.5 PHB and DMG describe each of them as a "Dungeons & Dragons Core Rulebook". "Core" is a broad, ambiguous term, but "core rulebook" specifically and unambiguously refers to the 3 main rulebooks, not to non-campaign-specific rulebooks in general. -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 07:35, 13 June 2008 (UTC)