Talk:Edip Yuksel

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QA- What is wrong now? I added nothing that you removed. QA- Ok i think that should do it. Is it enough cleaning?

Contents

[edit] For any further criticism please contact us directly

[edit] Edip Yuksel

Phone no: 001-520-481xxxx

[edit] Khizar Zamurrad Janjuah aka Johnny K.

Mobile no: 0049-17629291362

Just wondering do you guys really think it's a good idea to give out your phone #'s? You leave yourself open to prank phone calls because wiki is a popular site and there are all kinds of people here.

Johnny- Well i want them to call me so they can hear my voice and i beleve in this way more info can be conveyed much better. If it's possible i would even like my phone numbers to be on the main index. No one called me so far.

[edit] What more do you want to be removed???

We already removed a huge amount of the section and again it's not enough. How come? Wht's wrong now. We don't see you giving Ali Sina's article that much trouble? Why's that?

[edit] WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON

WHO REMOVED THE CRITICISM REGARDING ALI SINA???

[edit] NPOV

This needs some work in this department. It's not so bad but there is some confusion between what is being asserted as truth and what is being asserted as claims by Edip. gren 29 June 2005 10:27 (UTC)


==The stuff on JOHNNY K. == ... is irrelevant to the entry here. It is an attempt to piggyback on the fame of another individual. This person appears to be the initiator of the page and wants undue credit.

Please resist and STOP putting yourself and your ego into this entry.

Johnny- As i said im currently one of bro Edip's greatest supporter and i think that Edip Yuksel should decide whether i be allowed to publish my name on his article or not.

[edit] Speedy deletion

This article has been deleted twice and the user has re-created it each time. It is thus a candidate for speedy deletion. Zora 29 June 2005 12:37 (UTC)

QA- If this article is deleted then Ali Sina and all his stuff should be deleted as well. Ali is way less notable than Edip Yuksel. No one even knows the true identity of Ali Sina, yet he has been given an article on Wiki. Pleaase stop this bias of yours.

Khizar- On behalf of Edip Yuksel and myself i strongly DISAGREE that this article should be deleted.


[edit] JOHNNY K. --- Please READ

The article is actually important and Edip Yuksel deserves this mention here as he is a significant figure in Islamic reform that commenced with Rashad Khalifa.

The person who is vandalising this page is Johnny K. who keeps inserting his own tenuous affiliation to Edip Yuksel.

He is overzealous and does not realise that his attempts to constantly shoehorn himself into this page is jeopardising its existence.

Please direct your anger towards Johnny. Edip is innocent of what you claim in your comments.

Best regards.

Johnny- Im here and listening. Well first of all Edip is not responsible for me to publish a section of myself under his article so i dont think it's fair to delete his article based on this premise. On the other hand as long as Edip permits it why can't i add a section for myself. I am one of his greatest supporters currently and i feel i have the right to do this. Anyways direct this to me. If you have any probs with me call me on my no.

[edit] Johnny --->

You can have your own member page on Wikipedia and link to Edip's page from YOUR page.

It's not about 'great support' etc. Does a page on a football club deserve a mention of all its great supporters??

Please do not vandalise the page any further. Control your ego.

Johnny- If those great supporters you mention are in direct contact with the manager then i guess those should be mentioned. In case of Edip and myself it is a similar situation. We ARE A TEAM.

[edit] Johnny K. PLEASE STOP YOUR EGO.

You are being obnoxious.

[edit] WHY WAS THIS ARTICLE DELETED AGAIN???

Everything was set straight yesterday and yet someone deleted the article. Why?

[edit] I CANT FIND YESTERDAYS LATEST UPDATE OF THIS PAGE

COZ OF THE ONE WHO SPEEDILY DELETED THIS PAGE I NOW HAD TO PUT UP THE OLD VERSION. WHERES THE HISTORY??? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.130.57.122 (talk • contribs) 06:38, 30 June 2005.

When a page is deleted the history goes too. The main goal is so that people don't just revert to an old version. I really don't think your (or User:Edip Yuksel's) involvement in the article is going to help admins stop deleting it. Maybe if you stop editting the article (which makes people see it as vanity) some other users may feel that the claim for notoriety exists and will right you an NPOV article. If you keep on creating that same page the admins will delete it I'm afraid to say. gren 30 June 2005 12:41 (UTC)

QA- Why? Why do the do that? The article is written in a neutral as well as factual manner. If anyone feels the info is lacking accuracy she/he should edit that part instead of the admins deleting the whole article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.130.57.122 (talk • contribs) sometime.

Users voted it for deletion (WP:VFD) and therefore it was. If that happens you cannot just recreate it and expect it to stay. It was originally voted for deletion because User:Edip Yuksel looked like he was doing self-promotion, and he was, rightfully or wrongfully. Therefore when people believe this is a vanity page and users just recreate it instead of going to votes for undeletion (WP:VFU) as should be done then admins are just going to delete it and possible ban whomever recreates it. You cannot just arbitrarily overturn a vote. I think the vote passed mainly because Edip was self-promoting. I think that if you tried to make a case for its recreation in a civil manner on users' talk pages then maybe some would support your cause but just recreating it only goes against wikipedia policy and will anger users. gren 30 June 2005 15:35 (UTC)

Johnny- If anyone is to be balmed for the above then it's me, Johnny K. , for i made this article NOT Edip. He only gave me permission and left it up to me to formulate it. I believe now the article has been put in an orderly fashion.

[edit] Hi Edip -- It's Brandon

AOA -- hope all is well with you, and sorry you're having trouble here.

  • Edip, the reason the article has begun a pattern of disappearing is that the tone is not right for Wikipedia. (I'm not an admin or anything, but I can tell you that the tone of the current page is no less likely to be zapped than the one that you put up yesterday)
  • Admins are going to have to be sensitive about content that looks like self-promotion.
  • Would it help if I offered my services on an encyclopedia-friendly redraft of the article? (Even though I'm, gasp, a hadith-cherishing Sunni?)
<smile>

(Warning -- my redraft would likely be somewhat shorter than what you have now, and would not be partial to any side in the debates associated with the Quran-alone movement.)

Please let me know. Hope I can help here to find a good outcome.

Peace and blessings, BrandonYusufToropov 30 June 2005 18:00 (UTC)

  • Would it help if I offered my services on an encyclopedia-friendly redraft of the article? (Even though I'm, gasp, a hadith-cherishing Sunni?)

Quran Aloner: Yes i would appreciate that but im amazed that after so much rewriting it still upsets the people.

[edit] VfD

This article has been properly deleted several times as a result of a VfD discussion. The archived discussion is located here: Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Edip Yuksel. If you believe there is a case for undeletion of this article, feel free to make your case at Wikipedia:Votes for undeletion. Any attempt to recreate this page without a proper undeletion decision at that page will likely result in a speedy deletion by an admin, under the speedy deletion policies. --MikeJ9919 30 June 2005 18:21 (UTC)

[edit] Vote for undeletion if you want to keep this article

Sorry, I removed the tag when I shouldn't have. Then reverted.

People who want to keep this article should vote at Wikipedia:Votes for undeletion, where I have nominated it. BrandonYusufToropov 30 June 2005 19:06 (UTC)

Okay Edip/Johnny, here is the problem. Everytime someone replants the vfd again tag on the page, you remove it. I would be happy to nominate your article for undeletion, like Brandon did, on two conditions which comply with wikipedia policy:
  • You agree to stop removing the tag until a final decision is reached.
  • You stop making this an autobiography article where you self-promote yourself and start devoting large sections about other supporters. This article needs to be neutral.
I am sorry, but you have undeleted this article without any discussion 4 times now and if you continue I will have to report you. I am happy that you have taken an interest in wikipedia, but still remember this is an encyclopedia and not a personal website. Thank you, Anonymous editor June 30, 2005 19:13 (UTC)

Johnny- Thts fine with me. I wont remove it. I thght the discussion was over. I had many discussions before. Anyways i say the article should be KEPT now. Ive even posted my phone number for direct discussions so u cant say tht. Thanku

Okay good to see that you agree and I am sure the other editors here will also welcome this. I really don't think posting your telephone number is a good idea, though. Thanks, Anonymous editor June 30, 2005 21:24 (UTC)

Johnny- Leave that to me please. I think it is good and shows my honesty. However i see that the article has once again being deleted. I strongly object to that and request that the article be put back immediately.

You will have to ask administrator User:ALoan for the reason. He/she removed the article. Hope that helps. Anonymous editor June 30, 2005 22:23 (UTC)
I have replied on my talk page - it does not help to keep recreating the article while the discussion is under way on VFU. However, it looks like the VFU vote may be for undeleted and reference back to VFD. In the meantime, if you can write a suitably NPOV version, I'll be happy to replace the {{deletedpage}} template with it. -- ALoan (Talk) 1 July 2005 11:35 (UTC)

I agree with ALoan. Khizar if you have any concerns about whether the article is going to be restored please see Votes for undeletion. Last time I checked it was at 6 votes for undeletion vs. 3 votes for "keep" deletion. --Anonymous editor July 1, 2005 14:56 (UTC)

[edit] ARTCILE SHOULD BE RESTORED IMMEDIATELY!

[edit] NPOV

I'm worried about this paragraph...I've tried to NPOV it, but I'm not sure it's possible. I'm tempted to delete it in its entirety. Anyone want to take a shot? --MikeJ9919 5 July 2005 15:23 (UTC)

Yuksel promotes monotheism and freedom, protection of the environment, peace, critical thinking, scientific method, and philosophical inquiry. As an individual and as a member of the Islamic reform movement, he stands against what he sees as evil, such as hero-worship, injustice, racism, violence, imperialism, unreasonable discrimination, oppression, torture, apathy, arrogance, greed, corruption, waste, misogyny, xenophobia, jingoism, sexual promiscuity, alcohol, drugs, gambling, economic exploitation, fraud, usury, condensation of wealth in the hands of few, and manipulation of masses via nationalistic and religious hormones.

I think the whole dang article should be deleted (and will be voting that way) but this para is egregious. Delete delete delete! Zora 5 July 2005 15:42 (UTC)

Alright, I agree. Deleted. With that, though, I think my NPOV work is done. Hopefully Brandon can add some content. --MikeJ9919 5 July 2005 15:47 (UTC)

Khizar- Y shld this para be removed? Those are Edip's views. They really are. It is a fact. If Ali Sina's views can be mentioned y cant Edip's be. Im sorry but i have to object here. -- user:idmkhizar

[edit] PLEASE REFRAIN FROM CALLING QURAN ALONE A SECT

We find this very iinsulting.

I'm sick of playing this game, I really am. Read Wikipedia:Assume good faith, which is a widely accepted guideline. Sect, as defined by the American Heritage Dictionary:
  1. A group of people forming a distinct unit within a larger group by virtue of certain refinements or distinctions of belief or practice.
  2. A religious body, especially one that has separated from a larger denomination.
  3. A faction united by common interests or beliefs.
Christianity was once a sect of Judaism, and I don't find that insulting. I will admit that in modern usage the word "sect" has a slightly negative connotation, but nothing requiring such an over-the-top response from you. I strongly suggest you stop it with the Caps, for example. It's rude and tends to make people want to ignore you entirely. --MikeJ9919 5 July 2005 20:08 (UTC)


Mike -- not wanting for a moment to disagree with you on the etiquette notes -- I did want to mention that this "sect" busienss can be a sensitive issue among Muslims (all Muslims). Qur'an commands that believers not divide into sects -- which makes it a sin to do so. And yet, there they all are, these ... various approaches to Islam.
As a practical matter, I've noticed that some Muslims use the word to describe distinctions between Sunni/Shia/etc., while others are quite eager to avoid it. Note that the various madhabs are careful not to describe themselves as sects, or to act like sects (by excluding worshippers of different madhabs), even though they sometimes conflict in their rulings on matters of deen. I believe a centrist Sunni jurist issued a famous fatwa holding that Shia were in fact a madhab and not a sect. (Not a unanimous opinion among all Muslims, of course, but you see what I'm getting at.) Nobidy wants to disobey the Qur'an, or be seen as doing so.
Thank you for enlightening me. It's always good to be aware of cultural issues, and I'm happy to inform you on the finer points of Wikiquette. --MikeJ9919 5 July 2005 22:21 (UTC)
Person Mike Was Addressing: There is no reason to treat your fellow editors shabbily by shouting, which is what leaving the caps lock on amounts to. Please do read Wikipedia:Assume good faith. BrandonYusufToropov 5 July 2005 20:46 (UTC)

QA- Oh im sorry if i offended anyone but it just annoyed me when i saw that we are being labelled as a sect. I wont use caps next time God Willingly. GOD Bless!

Not a problem! God bless right back. :) Ma-salaam, BrandonYusufToropov 5 July 2005 21:41 (UTC)

[edit] Brandon please look at whats on Ali Sinas article

I quote: "Mr. Sina claims:

  • "Islam is not a religion of love but a doctrine of hate." [3]
  • "The ultimate goal of Islam is to rule the world; Islam is political and political Islam is fascism." [4]

He has consistently claimed that Islam is the greatest danger Mankind is facing today. However he also says that Islam is “a house of cards that will collapse if sufficiently pushed”, and that we may see the end of Islam within the next few decades. He has compared Islam both to Communism and Nazism, claiming that it will either collapse from within as the former did or have an apocalyptic end like the latter, after causing the death of millions and even billions in a nuclear Armageddon. [5]." Here i dont see any phrase like "Ali's supporters claim him to be..." but a straightforward "Mr. Sina claims:...". So y these limitations on Edip's aticle?


Please look at that article more closely: Everything you're citing is contained within quote marks. It's not like WP is stating that these are facts, or that Ali Sina, as channelled through Wikipedia, is the sole determinant of what the relevant facts are. There's nothing in that article in Wikipedia's voice that says:
Ali Sina's opposition to Islam arises from his conviction that little babies should be cared for tenderly and that homeless people should be provided with food and shelter. Note too Ali Sina opposes child pornography and takes care of small wounded animals like newborn kittens; his opposition to Islam must be understood as expressions of these convictions. What's more, in opposing Islam, Ali Sina has stated on numerous occasions that he approves of all that is good in the human spirit, and opposes all that is evil.
No. You don't find that. That would be biased. That would not sound like an encyclopedia.
What there is, to the contrary, is a series of quotes and claims about a controversial figure, reported more or less neutrally.
And that's what you'll find in the version of this article I last edited: quotes and claims, reported (if I've done my job as an editor properly) with something approaching neutrality. If there are brief quotes (not monologues) of Edip's that you feel are relevant to the article and should be included, why not post them here on the talk page so we can discuss them?
Also, with all respect, you may want to read Wikipedia:NPOV carefully if you have not done so -- before you try to make any more page edits. BrandonYusufToropov 6 July 2005 18:24 (UTC)

Khizar- You ignored the following part of Ali's article which ain't all quote: "He(ali sina) has consistently claimed that Islam is the greatest danger Mankind is facing today. However he also says that Islam is “a house of cards that will collapse if sufficiently pushed”, and that we may see the end of Islam within the next few decades. He(ali sina) has compared Islam both to Communism and Nazism(see no quote but a phrase stating his beliefs), claiming that it will either collapse from within as the former did or have an apocalyptic end like the latter, after causing the death of millions and even billions in a nuclear Armageddon. [5].

So then what is wrong with Edip's para:

Edip Yuksel CLAIMS to promote monotheism and freedom, protection of the environment, peace, critical thinking, scientific method, and philosophical inquiry. He claimed to have come to the conclusion that the Quran Alone promotes all these values and hence should be the only source of religious guidance for mankind without hadith and that only this would lead to happiness both in this life and the hereafter. As an individual and as a member of the Islamic reform movement, he CLAIMS to stand against WHAT HE SEES AS evil, such as hero-worship, injustice, racism, violence, imperialism, unreasonable discrimination, oppression, torture, apathy, arrogance, greed, corruption, waste, misogyny, xenophobia, jingoism, sexual promiscuity, alcohol, drugs, gambling, economic exploitation, fraud, usury, condensation of wealth in the hands of few, and manipulation of masses via nationalistic and religious hormones.


Guess what? You have successfully identified areas where the Ali Sina article could be improved. They probably do need to source their text better. Once you've got the concept of NPOV down, you could go over there and edit the Ali Sina article yourself. But the fact that someone fell asleep over there doesn't mean I should take a nap here.
You are arguing for inclusion of a long paragraph citing Edip's claims to support ideals that few people, if any, will go on record as opposing. This paragraph culiminates in a condemnation of "religious hormones" and "manipulation of the masses." Do you really think this is the kind of writing we will find in, say, the Columbia Encyclopedia?
So let's say you and I disagree. We discuss this on the Talk page for three days. You won't budge. I won't budge. Here's the problem with your version: it is so biased, and so over-the-top, that you're going to have a very hard time finding people who will support your edit. Especially (if I may add) when you attack people all the time. You're attacking me (see use of caps lock above, and use of loaded phrases like "You ignored..."), and I'm one of the people trying to keep this article from being deleted. So how are you going to win over people who are skeptical that this article should even exist, when you aren't even willing to try to build a constructive dialogue with me?
Again: Let's focus on a few relevant quotes from Edip that you feel should be in the article. Let's talk about them here on the talk page together. If we work together, we can make the article better and more informative. BrandonYusufToropov 6 July 2005 18:54 (UTC)

Khizar- Finally wer getting somewhere. Im glad that you admit that Ali Sinas article needs improvement. However i dont think it has not be done coz ppl fell asleep there which is quite impossible since this is suich a famous enc. which is browsed daily n articles r taken care off. No i believe it was left there deliberately hence introducing bias. Anyways as for my use of caps i believe i apologized earlier. I tend to analyse things critically. Now for the quotes. Lets take the above to phrases out ok i agree. tht leaves us with: "Edip Yuksel CLAIMS to promote monotheism and freedom, protection of the environment, peace, critical thinking, scientific method, and philosophical inquiry. He claimed to have come to the conclusion that the Quran Alone promotes all these values and hence should be the only source of religious guidance for mankind without hadith and that only this would lead to happiness both in this life and the hereafter. As an individual and as a member of the Islamic reform movement, he CLAIMS to stand against WHAT HE SEES AS evil, such as hero-worship, injustice, racism, violence, imperialism, unreasonable discrimination, oppression, torture, apathy, arrogance, greed, corruption, waste, misogyny, xenophobia, jingoism, sexual promiscuity, alcohol, drugs, gambling, economic exploitation, fraud, usury, condensation of wealth in the hands of few, etc." Or put it in quotes like this. Edip Yuksel claims:

  • "I believe in monotheism and freedom, protection of the environment, peace, critical thinking, scientific method, and philosophical inquiry."
  • "I came to the conclusion that the Quran Alone promotes all these values and hence should be the only source of religious guidance for mankind without hadith and that only this would lead to happiness both in this life and the hereafter."
  • "I tend to stand against evils such as hero-worship, injustice, racism, violence, imperialism, unreasonable discrimination, oppression, torture, apathy, arrogance, greed, corruption, waste, misogyny, xenophobia, jingoism, sexual promiscuity, alcohol, drugs, gambling, economic exploitation, fraud, usury, condensation of wealth in the hands of few, etc."

How abt tht now?


It still seems a bit overcooked to me, but let's hear what other editors have to say. BrandonYusufToropov 7 July 2005 13:29 (UTC)

Khizar- Ok.

I like the current version (the short one). It presents a one-sentence summary of his most important beliefs and ties it in to his teachings very neatly, which gives it a broader perspective. I don't support re-adding the long (and, in my opinion, egregiously POV) paragraph. I would like to see it moved out of its own section, though...while "Views and Beliefs" would be important in a larger article, I don't think there's enough meat there to justify it at the moment. --MikeJ9919 7 July 2005 17:31 (UTC)

== I believe the deletion tag should be removed now == user:idmkhizar

Hi Khizar -- I am checking on this. Peace, BrandonYusufToropov 13:51, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] vfd closed - result was "keep"

This article was nominated for deletion. The result was keep. For details, please see Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Edip Yuksel 2. -- BD2412 talk 06:02, July 14, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] If it's to be kept, it must be edited

I don't think anyone save Edip and his followers wanted to work on this page while it was in limbo. Since it's to be kept, then it should be brought up to a better standard. Right now, it is STILL a vanity page.

I am concerned about the claim to be a best-selling author in Turkey. I have been looking for someone familiar with Turkish literature and publishing who could support this claim (on Wikipedia and on Usenet) and have found no one willing to respond. I have tried to research the Turkish publishing industry online, and have found two articles, both from Qantara .de, a German site.

The first article [1] discusses the book market in Turkey. It says that there are some 4000 original works in Turkish published each year; average press runs are 2000 copies. No statistics on average sell-through, no mention of best-seller lists.

The second article [2] merely discusses the failure of most Turkish writers to find any market outside Turkey.

I think I probably should have done this research before the VfD closed, as it seems to me that the people who voted to keep the article did so on the basis of the claims to Turkish fame, and didn't ask for any proof of this fame. I'm obviously skeptical, but willing to be proved wrong. Could Edip and his supporter Janjuah point me to some supporting material? I've already looked at the list of books on Mr. Yuksel's resume [3] and see no information there re best-seller-dom that is not supplied by Mr. Yuksel. Zora 05:57, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] After an evening of assiduous googling

I have rewritten this article to reflect what I can confirm of the former page, stripping it of the boasting and unconfirmed claims. I have made attempts (on Wikipedia, Usenet, and LiveJournal) to communicate with English-speaking Turks who might be able to tell me if Mr. Yuksel is indeed "notable" in Turkey. I got very few answers; one fellow said vaguely, "I think I saw him on a couple of TV interview shows ..."

Since I don't speak Turkish, I'm hampered. But I do think it unwise to rely on Mr. Yuksel to tell the truth about himself, since he seems to be prone to self-magnification. As are we all, alas! I'm not sure I'd trust myself to write an article about me <g>. If this rewrite spurs some input from Turkish-speaking Wikipedians, or anyone who can confirm some of Yuksel's claims, that's all to the good. Zora 07:07, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for all the hard work on this, Zora. If Edip or anyone else who might have preferred the previous version would like to discuss future changes, can I ask that we all do so here on the talk page, rather than simply spinning our wheels by making non-consensus edits to the article that may be quickly reverted? Many thanks. BrandonYusufToropov 15:28, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
Good work indeed, Zora. One major question that I'd like resolved...was he in prison, and why? The current version claims it was because of Islamist views. A previous version, I believe, said it was because he had converted to Qu'ran alone. Brandon, I believe you were the one who originally mentioned that he had been a political prisoner. Where did you get this information? If we can get just one piece of independent confirmation, I feel this is an important fact that shouldn't be qualified by "Yuksel says..." --MikeJ9919 15:59, 19 July 2005 (UTC)


This was in conversation with Edip. It should be independently confirmed. BrandonYusufToropov 17:03, 19 July 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Edits(apparently) from Mr. Yuksel

An anon contributor added long details on the books, many of which talked about the books in first person ("I wrote" etc). While the anon may or may not be Mr. Yuksel trying to add to the list, much of the description sounds like a personal webpage containing commentries to the book contents. This is an encyclopedia, so please stick to the encyclopedic style in adding that. I also removed the best-selling claims as there is no proof other than hand-waving to back those claims. --Ragib 05:19, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Argumentation in publication list

The publication list (which cannot be verified) was edited so that the summaries of the (claimed) publication contents were glorification of Edip and argumentation for his positions -- written by someone with a grandiose and wordy style. I have, as much as I could, edited out the puffery and argumentation. Others may wish to review my changes -- there may be more verbiage that could be pruned. Zora 20:00, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] No one is puffing Edip Yuksel

The liness which i added on 30th november were FACTUAL QUOTES MADE BY EDIP HIMSELF and i can well quote those. Ali Sina has also been allowed to quote bad and nasty things against "islam".

The extended quote from Edip that you added was meaningless drivel about how he loved children and flowers and cute puppies -- the kind of thing a politician says, trying to please people. It contributed no useful information to the article. Zora 12:57, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Johnny- Well many of Sinas nasty comments dont contribute much to his article either, yet they are QUOTES and i believe that that quote is relevant because from there it can be derived clearly that Edip is unlike the majority of "muslim" scholars who employs the SCIENTIFIC METHOD in his studies. Johnny K.

Other Muslim scholars don't love children and flowers and peace and goodness? That quote fails to articulate any coherent position. It is meaningless. It is not necessary. Zora 13:44, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Jonny- No 99% of them dont. They believe in hadith which motivates them to send out young teenies to strap themselves with bombs and blow up innocent people. This is exactly the message that needs to be clearly delivered. Unless those "muslim" scholars are jailed altogether wer all gonna be in deep trouble.

[edit] To Mr. BrandonYusufToropov

The quote is relevant because from there it can be derived clearly that Edip is unlike the majority of "muslim" scholars who employs the SCIENTIFIC METHOD in his studies. This point needs to be stressed in particular and it is from a factual quote. Johnny K.

Reza Aslan employs the scientific method and does it without making grandiose claims for himself. The self-praising quote stays out. Zora 19:24, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Jonny- Once again id like to remind you that Edip Yuksel does not and has never participated in the creation oif this article. It is me who did it and i took the quote to be relevant and so put it in the article. Therefore we cannot be talking about Yuksel praising himself by any means. Now ive browsed through Reza's website. Sounds like hes a Quran Aloner too coz the name of his books is "no god but God" NOT adding "(and) Muhammad is his messenger". If he is then thats perfectly fine as all Quran Aloners, including Edip employ the scientific method. A this point in time Edip seems to be the most famous of Quran Aloners though, thus the relevancy of the quote. He will be appearing on TV in Turkey and extend it God Willigly to international TV in the near future. Plans or that are running as ive been discussing this with him.

Johnny, with all respect, it's an encyclopedia. George Bush may consider himself to be any number of praiseworthy things, and may be quoted factually in various media as having said so. But that doesn't mean the quote is by definition relevant to the George W. Bush article. See WP:NOT. We're not a propaganda machine (today's mainpage featured article notwithstanding). If you have a quote dealing with the scientific method directly, we should all review it and talk about it.BYT 19:37, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of quotes

Why are the quotes I posted consistently being removed by user "Clown will eat me"? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.130.76.191 (talk • contribs) 12:10, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

As I explained on your talk page [4] Wikipedia is not the appropriate place for a long list of quotes. Please use Wikiquote instead. Thanks. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 12:14, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I am looking for?

I need to know if you can help me look for turkish pray in audio....i am finding a hard time and i really want to hear the quran out load in turkish. please let me know thanks