Talk:Edgard Varèse
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
| This article is within the scope of the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Contents |
[edit] Zappa
Noticed no mention of Frank Zappa and the influence Varese had on his work. Kemkerj 23:35, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
Probably because that has very little to do with Varese, and more with Zappa. (Who I love to death.)-FeralCats
- I seem to recall Zappa's favourite quote of Varese being "The present day composer refuses to die" which he might have quoted as said by Varese and which he certainly altered on one of his very first albums to read "The present day Pachuco refuses to die". Not sure if anyone thinks that this is worth including in the article, and if so, then where? In the trivia section, perhaps? Hi There 02:44, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] pronunciation?
How the hell do you pronounce this guy's name? The Guilty Undertaker 18:50, 27 July 2006
- As if written, in English, Edgar Varayza. Or do you need IPA? -- megA 18:37, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
-
- Yes, IPA please. OlYeller 06:44, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Cleanup
The biography needs to be cleaned up a bit and put into sections. Right now it's kind of just one big lump of information. I personally volunteer to do this once I get the time, though anyone else willing should feel free to do so. JesusjonezTalk 22:34, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
- Indeed, it's a mess. Nothing pre-1915! he was married to Suzanne Bing. See chronologie (in French), and this biography (in German). If needed, I can translate parts of either upon request. Lupo 14:02, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
-
- I can't read French or German but I'll see what babelfish can do. JesusjonezTalk 23:24, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Compositions Mentioned in Section "Early Life"
The section mentions two works, "Rhapsodie romane" and "Bourgogne". Is there any particular reason why they are not listed amongst his works at the end of the article? Also, more generally, he seems not to have been a very prolific composer; was he able, throughout his life, to support himself by his composing and other musical endeavours? Hi There 02:44, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Varese and Charlie Parker
I found this in the WP Charlie Parker article: At various times, Parker fused jazz with other musical styles, from classical (seeking to study with Edgard Varèse and Stefan Wolpe) to Latin music (recordings with Machito), blazing paths followed later by others. Hopefully I will get around to finding out a little more about this, as it would be an interesting factlet to have in the article, if true. Hi There 09:43, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
- Oellette's biography of Varèse contains this: "After the death of Charlie Parker ... the latter's wife came to see Varèse to tell him that her husband had followed Varèse up and down the streets of Greenwich Village for two years without ever daring to speak to him" AllyD 10:29, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Spelling of Edgar[d]
My understanding is that he was born as Edgard, but initially published under Edgar, and around 1942 decided to resume the original spelling Edgard. Hence, both versions appear in the literature. If these are the correct facts, is there a better cite than the ones I've been able to drag up ([1] [2])? -- JackofOz (talk) 04:29, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
- Malcolm MacDonald has a useful footnote about this at the outset of his book (cited in the article as ref. 4) Astronomer in Sound, p. xi. He points out that the French version of the name is 'Edgar', same as English, but Varese's birth-certificate shows 'Edgard' and thinks this may be something to do with his Piedmontaise ancestry - a sort of half-way house to the Italian 'Edgardo'. Cenedi (talk) 11:24, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
[edit] External links
I previously deleted an external link to an "Edgard Varese at Pytheas" page which had been added by user 2021music, as I feel that the linked page contains a list of Varese's works, plus various links, plus a banner ad. The user has re-added the link and has also placed a rationale on User talk:2021music which confirms his/her association with Pytheas. I don't want to get into a to-and-fro edit war, so maybe the best thing is for others to look at the link and see if they feel that it adds anything or falls within the scope of Wikipedia:EL#Links_normally_to_be_avoided in which case it should be deleted again? AllyD (talk) 17:43, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
- Link removed. It fails all the What should be linked points and the conflicts of interest..."You should avoid linking to a website that you own, maintain or represent..." Lame Name (talk) 18:33, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] External Links
This is the last time I’ll comment on this issue.
Concerning Lame Name’s comments:
How does the Pytheas link FAIL all the "What should be linked" points???
1. Articles about any organization, person, web site, or other entity should link to the official site if any.
There is no “official Edgard Varese website”. I do not see how there could ever be one. Varese has been dead for 43 years and cannot sanction an “official” website.
2. An article about a book, a musical score, or some other media should link to a site hosting a copy of the work if none of the "Links normally to be avoided" criteria apply.
This does not apply to the Wikipedia Edgard Varese webpage.
3. Sites that contain neutral and accurate material that cannot be integrated into the Wikipedia article due to copyright issues, amount of detail (such as professional athlete statistics, movie or television credits, interview transcripts, or online textbooks) or other reasons.
The Pytheas Edgard Varese webpage does contain “neutral and accurate material that cannot be integrated into the Wikipedia article due to … amount of detail … or other reasons.
4. Sites with other meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article, such as reviews and interviews.
The Pytheas Edgard Varese webpage DOES contain “meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article”. Where else in the Wikipedia Edgard Varese webpage article can one find 25 links to websites with general information regarding Varese, 32 links to websites with detailed articles regarding Varese and his music, 11 links to online books that have sections devoted to Varese, and 7 links to websites that have streaming audio of music by Varese.
I do agree that I have a conflict of interest regarding the proposed link. The link may secondarily have some promotional effect on the Pytheas website, yet the primary overriding purpose of the proposed link is to make information regarding Edgard Varese and his music MORE accessible.
I will not try to reinstate the link that has been removed, though I do find some of the other “External Links” already in place highly questionable. (i.e. Edgard Varèse at Allmusic??? – adds very little and has overt commercial purposes; BBC.co.uk: Music Profiles: Edgard Varèse – a non-functioning link to the BBC home page; Edgard Varèse Bust, a sculptural tribute to the composer – I fail to see how this link has any relevance to the understating of Edgard Varese, and that it mainly promotes the work of sculptor Michael Keropian).
My one request would be to ask anyone really interested in Edgard Varese and his music to please consider reinstating the deleted link and thus enhance the Wikipedia Edgard Varese article and the understanding of Varese. Thank you for your time and consideration.
2021music 2021music (talk) 14:36, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
- 1 - Pytheas is not an official Varèse web site
- 2 - Pytheas hosts nothing of interest
- 3 - Any such material could be integrated into the article or used in a separate The Works Of Edgard Varèse article
- 4 - Wikipedia is not a repository of links
- Agreed the other external links could do with some pruning. Lame Name (talk) 15:14, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm truly sorry you have such strong feelings regarding this issue. The only valid point you make concerns my comment regarding the other external links. No.1 has nothing to do with anything (there could be no official Edgard Varese website); No. 2 is your strong opinion, but only YOUR opinion; No. 3 may be correct, and at the time that all the information linked to at the Pytheas Edgard Varese page is integrated into the article or other related articles I would gladly have the link removed - at this point in time the information is NOT integrated into the article and therefore is valid information related to the article; No. 4 is true, but the PYTHEAS EDGARD VARESE PAGE is the repository of links, not the Pytheas link at the Edgard Varese Wikipedia page. As stated under [3] "Links to be considered" ...Long lists of links are not appropriate: "Wikipedia is not a mirror or a repository of links. IF YOU FIND A LONG LIST OF LINKS IN AN ARTICLE, YOU CAN TAG THE "EXTERNAL LINKS" SECTION with the External links template. WHERE EDITORS HAVE NOT REACHED CONSENSUS ON AN APPROPRIATE LIST OF LINKS, A LINK TO A WELL_CHOSEN WEB DIRECTORY CATEGORY COULD BE USED UNTIL SUCH A CONSENSUS CAN BE REACHED. The Open Directory Project is often a neutral candidate, and may be added using the dmoz template."
I still have not heard any reason why the link would DETRACK from the Edgard Varese Wikipedia article, and an fuller understanding of Edgard Varese and his music.
2021music2021music (talk) 17:09, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
- The crucial purpose is to develop Wikipedia as a source of solid, well-sourced and reliable information in itself (hence not link-farming, etc.). One of the guidance articles suggests that a valid External Link is one which would provide extra value if and when the WP article was already a Good Article in itself. That is a good point to help evaluate when one is adding a link - aside from the WP:COI point about adding one's own link. 2021music, why not start making substantive edits to the actual articles on WP, on Varèse and on other subjects, rather than just seeking to add links to your Pytheas pages? Nobody is suggesting the Varèse page is perfect, it can benefit from knowledgeable improvements for everyone's benefit. AllyD (talk) 17:32, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
These links, available on Pytheas, are of primary interest to those exploring Edgard Varese: Edgard Varese - Father of Electronic Music Isabelle Chapuis Starr on Varese Chou Wen-chung and the Varese Story (by Stanley Fefferman, showtimemagazine.ca) Edgard Varese: Complete Works (by Bob Halliday, Mappi.mundi Magazine) Edgard Varese @ Musem Tinguely (also press release) On Ameriques (1922) (by Chou Wen-chung) Varese (by Grant Chu Covell, La Folia) Composers Who Broke Their Reins (Bernard Holland, The New York Times) No Apolgy (Time Magazine) Struggles of an Electronic Pioneer (by Bayan Northcott, The Independent @ bnet) Edgard Varese: Composer Portrait (by John Hammel, Bella Cantare) Varese: Ameriques (@ LA Philharmonic) A Bomb to Blow Up Music World (by David Stevens, International Herarld Tribune) Boulez Conducts Varese (review by Daniel Felsenfeld, Andante.com) Masterpieces of 20th Century Multi-channel Tape: Varese Engineer's Son (Time Magazine) Poem electronique by Varese: Authenticity, Reproduction and Mediatization (by Tim Stephenson, Intellect) Edgard Varese: Offrandes (1921) (time4time) Edgard Varese @ A42 On Hyperprism (1923) (@ Renewable Music) Varese's Hyperprism (by Christopher Meister) Frank Zappa on Edgard Varese (by John Diliberto and Kimberly Haas, Downbeat Magazine) Sound Space and Edgard Varese's Poeme electronique (by Densil Cabrera/Masters Thesis) Edgard Varese and the New Music of America (by Dane Rudhyar, Rudhyar Archival Project) Varese, Image, Science (by Alain Montesse) [translated by google from the Frech original] Pierre Boulez on Edgard Varese: "Octandre", performance and analysis (Creative Arts Television) On Octandre (1923) (by Chou Wen-chung) The Composer's Eye (State University of New York at Buffalo Exhibition) Composer Portraits: Edgard Varese (Darcy James Argue's Secret Society) Back to the Future, Unmade: Glittering, Playful Varese (Anne Midgette, The New York Times) Edgard Varese: Collection of Scores and Other Materials (Stanford University Libraries)
These links are of general interest regarding Varese: Varese @ 20th Century Arts and Humanities (Dr. Michael Delahoyde, Washington State University) Varese @ allmusic Varese @ aworks Varese @ Biographybase Varese @ Boston Modern Orchestra Project Varese @ Brain-Juice Varese @ Center for New Music & Audio Technologies, University of California at Berkeley Varese @ Centrebombe Varese @ dbpedia Varese @ edgard-varese.com (french website) Varese @ Electro-acoustic Music Varese @ enotes [Varese's name misspelled as "Vareoe"] Varese @ IRCAM (translated by google from the French original) Varese @ Kunstbus (translated by google from the Dutch original) Varese @ Musical Time.com Varese @ My Space Music 1 & 2 Varese @ Sapientiam Autem Non Vincit Malitia (translated by google from the Portuguese original) Varese @ Theremin.info Varese @ Theremin Vox Bio and Links Varese @ Virginia Tech Multimedia Music Dictionary Composers Biographies Varese @ Zappa Wiki Jawaka
Streaming Audio Varese @ Classical Masterpieces Varese @ Connexions: Listening Gallery Varese @ UBUWEB Varese @ USC Music of the 20th Century
Links to Amazon.com and other commercial sites appear only at the request of the composer. For example, the recordings and links listed on Karen Amrhein's Pytheas page were suggested by the composer after contacting her regarding her Pytheas page and what information she would like added. Recordings of Varese's music are available at so many commercial sites that there would never be a need to link, and therefore promote, their commercial interests. The Pytheas links to last.fm and Rhapsody are made because some of Varese's music is available at these site FOR FREE.
2021music 2021music (talk) 23:19, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Sheesh. To make an absurdly long story short, the Pytheas link should not be reinstated. SethTisue (talk) 13:53, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
