Talk:Eastern Romance languages
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- User:Node ue wrote: "Eastern Romance and Sardinian share some features, including the mutation of Latin "ngu" to "mb" and "qua" to "ba"/"pa":"
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- So what? That is indeed true, but it's just one sound change and most likely just a coincidence and nothing more. bogdan | Talk 16:51, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
- Most likely a coincidence? Prove that it is not because a closer relationship? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.251.68.75 (talk • contribs) 13:27 25 December 2005 (UTC).
- We have two similarities out of hundreds of sound changes. Which theory is easier to accept: that they are just coincidences or that the Romanians and Sardinians, who lived in different corners of the Roman Empire, somehow influenced each other. The Occam's Razor says the former must be true. bogdan 22:39, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
- I don't know -- out of all descendants of Latin, only two linguistic groups, the Sardinian and the Romanian, manifested those sound changes. Many Sardinian and Romanian words look similar. --Node 06:42, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
- We have two similarities out of hundreds of sound changes. Which theory is easier to accept: that they are just coincidences or that the Romanians and Sardinians, who lived in different corners of the Roman Empire, somehow influenced each other. The Occam's Razor says the former must be true. bogdan 22:39, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
- Most likely a coincidence? Prove that it is not because a closer relationship? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.251.68.75 (talk • contribs) 13:27 25 December 2005 (UTC).
- Are you defending your past edit or merely commenting? Alexander 007 07:02, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
- Defending it. I can understand skepticism on your part, but it almost seems as if you're just as anti-Sardinian as you are anti-Russian. --Node 01:05, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
- It does not surprise me that you label me anti-Russian (though I am against Russian expansionism and aggresion, not against the nationality or even the current nation), but to call me anti-Sardinian is plain childish as well as defamation. How does it "almost seem" that I am "anti-Sardinian"? Alexander 007 01:16, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
- Defending it. I can understand skepticism on your part, but it almost seems as if you're just as anti-Sardinian as you are anti-Russian. --Node 01:05, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
- So what? That is indeed true, but it's just one sound change and most likely just a coincidence and nothing more. bogdan | Talk 16:51, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
- "Alex doesn't like my edit: WAAAAAAH! Maybe he's anti-Sardinian! Or maybe I don't even really think that, I just want to defame him a bit. Yeah! Didn't he practically accuse me of being anti-German and anti-Romanian?" It seems that Node was having one of those days today; he just vandalised User:Theresa knott's talk page:[1], [2] Alexander 007 01:50, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
- And thank you for admitting only two linguistic groups. Alexander 007 09:43, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
- Hmm? --Node 01:05, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
- And thank you for admitting only two linguistic groups. Alexander 007 09:43, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
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- "Hmm?" is what I'm thinking, Node. Dalmatian and Romanian share a number of sound-changes only between them, and similar words (copsa, coapsa, etc.) but the languages are very different. Alexander 007 01:16, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
- By the way, what's the Dalmatian treatment of Latin aqua? This question is not addressed at Node (more likely @ Bogdan who has studied Dalmatian a bit) but to whoever has the datum available. Alexander 007 02:26, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
- "Hmm?" is what I'm thinking, Node. Dalmatian and Romanian share a number of sound-changes only between them, and similar words (copsa, coapsa, etc.) but the languages are very different. Alexander 007 01:16, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
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- Actually, it has a quite peculiar form, I can guess it's from aquae -> acve -> vi: (here's in a sentence:)
- E la vústra súnta búca da bar la vi dumandúa, col fiél e col acáid ve la intoscúa. (1860)
- And your holy mouth asks water to drink; with gall and vinegar they poison it.
- bogdan 09:47, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
- Actually, it has a quite peculiar form, I can guess it's from aquae -> acve -> vi: (here's in a sentence:)
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- Most likely it is from aqua. I don't know the etymology or if such a mutation is possible in Dalmatian. At a superficial glance looking at that sentence, Dalmatian looks more like Portuguese rather than like Romanian.Alexander 007 09:57, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
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- The anonymous genius (User:24.251.68.75; edits done by this IP to User:Node ue's talk page indicate to a high degree that this is an IP used by User:Node ue, and Theresa knott has concluded that this is indeed so) should realize that in terms of Wikipedia, the burden is on him to cite references that indicate it is more than just a coincidence. Alexander 007 01:45, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
- Alex, see WP:AGF. You're assuming I've got some sort of bad intentions here. You could've just asked on my user talkpage if this IP belonged to me (which it does), and I would've told you straight out that it did. This is a violation of AGF... also, your message comes across as a bit brusque, was that your intention? --24.251.68.75 09:32, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
- The anonymous genius (User:24.251.68.75; edits done by this IP to User:Node ue's talk page indicate to a high degree that this is an IP used by User:Node ue, and Theresa knott has concluded that this is indeed so) should realize that in terms of Wikipedia, the burden is on him to cite references that indicate it is more than just a coincidence. Alexander 007 01:45, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
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- Well okay, I apologize Node. You were however rather aggresive yourself in defending your idea. Alexander 007 09:42, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
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- Actually, those are two sound-changes (-ng->-mb; -qua-> -pa-), but I agree that it is not very relevant to mention this. If it is mentioned, it should be made clear that linguists (AFAIK) do not draw any great conclusions from these features, which do appear to be a coincidence. -Alexander 007 05:46, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
And FWIW, Romanian and Sardinian are part of only a small handful of languages which are not considered "Western Romance". So whether you consider Sardinian to be "Eastern Romance" or "Insular Romance", it would definitely be silly to include it in a group with Portuguese, Spanish, French, Catalan, Italian, Occitan, etc.
And a sample (in this case, Nuorese):
"Fenòmenu linguìsticu de una pessone o pòpulu chi faeddat in sa matessi manera e livellu duas limbas, ponende s'una o s'àtera sena perder informatziones colende dae una limba a s'àtera. B'at bilinguismu cando unu territòriu, in ue sa zente faeddat zai una limba, est assuzetadu e privadu dae sa soverania o colonizadu, e sa zente imparat sa limba de s'istadu dominadore. A su sòlitu, sunt pagas sas pessones chi resessint a manizare sas duas limbas in sa matessi maneras, àmbitos e usos. Su bonu de sa zente nde connoschet una mezus de s'àtera, chi est assuzetada e faeddada petzi in unas cantas ocasiones. In pràtica, una limba, s'esterna, si impreat in sas ocasiones comunicativas artas, e s'interna pro sas ocasiones bassas, familiares. In custu casu, si faeddat de diglossia."
"Linguistic phenomenon of a person or peoples who speak in the same manner and level two languages, putting the one or the other without losing information from one language to the other. Having bilingualism when a territory, in which the people already speak one language, is associated and privated by the sovereignity or colonised, and the people learn the language of the dominating state. [...] In this case, it is called diglossia."
- Yes, the similarity can be notable, I never denied that and I'm aware of that. I have gone through Sardinian texts before, including the Sardinian Wiki. But I (and, unless I'm mistaken, most linguists) am satisfied to view this as convergent evolution. As I understand, Sardinian is more specifically included as Southern Romance, not Western or Eastern. Wikipedia is about citing references, but for the sake of discussion: I challenge you to find evidence that this is not simply a case of convergent evolution. As you said yourself, Sardinian was insular (thus, isolated, at least from Romanian), so I don't consider a connection to Eastern Romance to be worth considering.
- Even an argument that the substratum of Eastern Romance and Sardinian was a kindred language is barely worth considering. Even if you suppose the Eastern substratum to be Illyrian, there was no sizable populations of Illyrians or kindred tribes on the island.
- A more possible theory is that the Roman colonists who went to Sardinia were from the same stock of colonists who formed the basis of Eastern Romance. But I don't know of any proof of that, or even a compelling reason to propose that. Months ago, I searched through the online Sardinian dictionary and found numerous close parallels: Sardinian circuvoglia, circuvolla, chirchiola, circannoeu all meaning "rainbow". Compare Romanian curcubeu, also meaning "rainbow" and furthermore of unclear etymology. These forms don't seem to be common in Romance, but I'm not sure, I haven't really checked. And this is not nearly enough. It's just too unlikely a scenario. Sardinian and Eastern Romance were isolated from each other and the similarities are due to convergent evolution from Latin.Alexander 007 12:45, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
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- I don't think so. I'll detail this in a few minutes. The Romanian and Sardinian words for "rainbow" have something to do with Latin circus, "a ring", etc., but the details are obscure. I am not saying they derive from circus (the Romanian word cerc and the Sardinian words circu and tzircu derive from circus, not curcubeu), but obviously there is a connection. Alexander 007 14:23, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
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- Curcubeu looks like it is derived from an ancient *Cucurbius. Could it be related to Latin curvare (possibly Vulgar Latin "curbare", hence Old French "corber") ? bogdan 14:29, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
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- BTW, there's a Curcubăta Peak in Bihor Mountains, showing another example of cucur -> curcu. bogdan 14:29, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
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- I still think a connection to cucurbita is unlikely. See the Sardinian words, beginning with circu-, and circu in Sardinian derives from Latin circus. It also makes excellent sense: a rainbow is an arc or ring in the sky. But who knows. I'll study this some more. In Latin there was Cercius as a variant of Circius (a wind in southern Gaul known as "the circulator"), and there was the word curculio (a corn-worm; "a curved creature"), that Perseus says is related to circulus and circus. Perhaps curcubeu derives from some unattested Vulgar Latin form (*curcubeus? *curcubeum?) brought from Italy. Alexander 007 14:32, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
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- The idea of a link is that, historically if I recall correctly, both colonies (Sardinia and the Balkans) were sort of "abandoned" by the Romans and became rural backwaters almost entirely neglected by the Romans, who had lost interest. I don't know about the Balkan Romance languages situation in this case (I didn't read a lot about their historical development), but I know that Sardinian people are said to have maintained for a very long time a sort of Romance language which tried to imitate "proper" Latin but failed sorely -- Dante Aligheri said that the Sardinians "mimic Latin grammar, just like the monkeys mimic humans". So, while their words sounded Latin enough, they never totally mastered the grammar, and ended up with something just a little bit more complex than most Western Romance languages but certainly not as complex as Classical Latin. Sardinian and Balkan Romance have in common, I think, that they were excluded from many of the changes that effected the Western Romance languages. Speaking of which, I saw some sources which included Italian as Eastern Romance, based on the La Spezia-Rimini line. Is it possible then to argue for a distinction between "Eastern Romance" and "Balkan Romance"? It seems confusing because in terms of the line, Romanian and Italian can indeed be grouped together, but in terms of grammar, they cannot, most likely due to influence on Balkan Romance from the surrounding languages, and perhaps those languages it supplanted.
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- That's interesting, but that's not what linguists would call a real link between Eastern Romance (as understood in this article) and Sardinian. Rather, that proves my point: convergent evolution, due to some similar historical circumstances as the languages evolved from Latin. I see many more differences between Romanian and Sardinian than similarities. If you change the terminal -u's (which at a cursory glance seem to mimic the Romanian definite article, but this is an illusion) in Sardinian to -o's or -a's, for example, Sardinian begins to look more like Italian:
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- Sard (o/u)"Fenomeno linguistico de una pessone o populo chi faeddat in sa mattesi manera e livello duas limbas..."'
- Ital: "Fenomeno linguistico in qui una persona o un popolo chi parla in la medesima maniera e livello due lingue..."
- Rom: "Fenomen lingvistic în care o persoană sau un popor care vorbeşte în acelaşi mod şi nivel două limbi..."
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- Close to Romanian? Not really. It totally lacks the Latin-like Romanian grammar. Sardinian and Romanian developed from Latin, but on completely separate lines that happened to converge in some areas. Regarding the La Spezia-Rimini Line, I see no evidence that contradicts the accepted theory that Proto-Romanian developed separately from Italian as well; again the similarities are most likely convergent evolutionary paths from Latin, though possibly with a dash of some other factor at work, which I'll have to look into. Alexander 007 12:22, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
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- And by the way, Node, if you're so interested in Sardinian, can you take some time out to clean-up Sardinian language? I cleaned up some stuff already. Alexander 007 12:34, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
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- Node, both Sardinian and Romanian developed from older versions of Vulgar Latin (due to their isolation, they couldn't get the latest version :-), unlike the other Romance languages. But the grammar and vocabulary of Sardinian is far closer to Italian than to Romanian. bogdan 12:48, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
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- Exactamento (is that Spanish? :). Alexander 007 13:08, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
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- I don't think that is in any language :-) "Exactamente" would be Spanish, "Esattamente" in Italian. bogdan
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"The Greeks have proven that the so-called Aromanian is actually a dialect of a mixed composition, containing 60% Latin and 40% Greek words and syntax" - This sounds like a very linguistically naive statement. And who exactly are "the Greeks"? Max 23:16, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
I'd translate that small bit of text above a bit different in Romanian. I'd make it:
- Sard (o/u)"Fenomeno linguistico de una pessone o populo chi faeddat in sa mattesi manera e livello duas limbas..."
- Ital: "Fenomeno linguistico in qui una persona o un popolo chi parla in la medesima maniera e livello due lingue..."
- Rom: "Fenomen lingvistic in care o persoana sau un popor care vorbeste in aceiasi maniera si nivel doua limbi"
Mirc mirc 16:37, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
