Talk:Eastern Gray Squirrel

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[edit] Photo, links.

I've changed the picture on this page, because the one we had looked more like a Fox Squirrel. I have also removed a whole lot of links, that were either unnecessary or frankly unhelpful - I think it's overdoing things to link from a page like this to the forks of trees or the exterior walls of homes. seglea 04:16, 4 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Reduction in reds.

"At the turn of the 20th century it was introduced into South Africa and England, spreading across the latter and leading to a reduction in the population of the native Red Squirrel in most parts of England and Wales."

This has always bugged me. How did grey squirrels manage to get rid of most of the red ones? Or is this just a misconception? -- Smjg 12:21, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)

No, It's very likely to be the true scenario. It seems it's mostly due to competition for resources, with the larger, stronger greys winning a larger share of the available food. Also in there is a bit of biological warfare - the greys are more resistant to a disease that kills many reds (the greys are carriers) and a bit of adaptability on the part of the greys - reds simply aren’t as at home in the city parks the greys thrive in - so habitation loss hits the reds harder.

http://www.wildlifetrust.org.uk/durham/RedAlert/RedAlert.html gives quite a good summary of all this. -- sannse (talk) 19:12, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Just looked at it. But it still amazes me how one little species, of which there can't have been millions to start with, can have managed to virtually wipe out another, closely related species. I suppose that, if only there were sufficient food and habitats that appeal to only the red ones, the two could happily coexist. And if only someone set up an anti-parapox immunisation programme.... -- Smjg 17:20, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Because they are American squirrels, and as we all know everything American is far superior to its European counterparts. 137.21.66.141 19:53, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

If you have access to the technical biological literature, look up research papers by the Belgian ecologist L. A. Wauters, who has documented in depressing detail the impact of the greys on the red squirrels' fitness, in both Britain and Italy. I'll add an example reference to the page in a tick. seglea 19:41, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

>> Hi, I just want to comment about this because I've been following it for sometime. Unfortunately, I'm away and I don't have any of the references. The idea that the greys out compete the reds is fallacious in my estimation - and I have been following both species for some 25 years now. It is the infection which is the primary problem - the greys brought the illness, which the reds have no resistance to. The reds survive in good numbers where the disease did not reach, such as the Isle of Wight (where I grew up). There are several reasons why I doubt that overcompetition is a major factor in the greys beating out the reds, chiefly:

1. The habitat and hence diet of the two species differ. The red squirrels primary habitat is coniferous forests; they eat the seeds of pine cones. Grey squirrels rarely if ever each pine seeds, preferring the seeds of broadleaved trees, as as the acorn. (The greys also occupy cities, of course, which the reds avoid). 2. Although the red squirrel and the American red squirrel are different species, in forests in Canada both the American red squirrel and the grey squirrel co-exist quite comfortably - chiefly for the reason mentioned in (1) above 3. In Scotland, they have managed to provide the grey's immunity to the relevant infection to the local population of red squirrels. Result? Both species coexist, and red squirrel populations are on the rise again.

I haven't read the sociobiology paper quoted, but I am somewhat doubtful of its conclusions. It is certainly possible that there is direct competition between the species in places where greys and reds coexist but it is highly unlikely that this is the key factor in their forcing out the red squirrels given the issues raised above.

At the very least I suggest rewriting this piece to upgrade the importance of the infection and downgrade the importance of inter-species competition, which I consider to be highly speculative, and quite possibly skewed by prior assumptions.

Anyway, I don't really know how this aspect of the Wikipedia works but as I am starting to realise that I am close to being an expert on squirrels (which is odd, because professionally I am a game designer!) and therefore I wanted to contribute some perspective.

Do with this information as you will - discard it if you wish. Best wishes! (CMB) <<

Hello again! I wish to continue to push that the infection carried by the greys is a bigger factor than overall "fitness". I acknowledge that the evidence for the competition for resources has shored up quite considerably, and also I have confirmed that greys will eat pine nuts (although still suspect reds are better adapted for this) - but I wish to provide this link from the BBC as further evidence in my claim that the disease is as much or more of a factor in the decline of the red in the British Isles, thus: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/highlands_and_islands/7364769.stm

Best wishes! (CMB) [[[Special:Contributions/67.187.96.11|67.187.96.11]] (talk) 13:44, 30 April 2008 (UTC)]

Back once more... I found this webpage: http://www.grey-squirrel.org.uk/reds.php which supports my claim that greys are very unlikely to outcompete red squirrels in pine forests, but contradicts my claim that the parapox virus is a factor. I'll be investigating this further, but if what is being said here is validated it means I am correct about the point I was uncertain about (that grey squirrels don't outcompete reds in the red's native environment, only in deciduous and mixed forests - i.e. in the grey's own environment) but in error about the thing I was most certain about (that the parapox was a major factor).

One thing is certain, this issue remains both complex and controversial, just as the wikipedia page says. :) Thanks for your patience with my sideways contributions, and best wishes! (CMB) [[[Special:Contributions/71.196.177.117|71.196.177.117]] (talk) 02:59, 25 May 2008 (UTC)]

Albino (white) squirrels are also fairly common in Westerville, Ohio (a suburb of Columbus), especially on the campus of Otterbein University in Westerville.

[edit] Michigan.

hi i have a vacation house in pullman michigan usa, and i have seen gray, black and red squirrels, all apparently similar to the eastern gray squirrel. also it was suggested to me that much of the squirrel poluation of europe was killed by starving people in WW2. thanks!

[edit] Chicago area.

I've seen black squirrels as far north as Mount Prospect, and as far west as two miles west of the Fox River.

[edit] Red Eurasian, songbirds.

The Wikipedia article on the Red Eurasian Squirrel suggests that a factor favouring the grey in competition with the red in places where the grey has been introduced is the ability of the grey to easily digest acorns, something the reds lack.

Reports in the UK press (24/05/06) suggest that the Grey Squirrel is a factor in the decline of songbirds through predation. These seem to originate from a UK chaity called Songbird Survival whose website suggest that greys eat bird's eggs and fledglings (see http://www.songbird-survival.org.uk/squirrels.html?link=predators).

It would be useful if the Eastern Gray Squirrel entry could clarify these assertions by having a paragraph on diet.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.168.69.241 (talk • contribs) 2006-05-29t10:27:29z

[edit] Spelling

An anon. has been through changing "Gray" to "Grey" in the name of the animal throughout. Since the species originates in the US (mainly), standard practice is that it should have US spelling (except when referring to its name in Europe, which is clearly "Grey Squirrel" - it doesn't get the "Eastern" either). However it may be that for some historical reason the usual spelling in the US is in fact "Grey" - can an American with access to authoritative local sources comment please? thanks. seglea 17:07, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Just one more example of the problems using common names as synonyms - If we simply used the binmomial name it would solve so many problems here and elsewhere ! However, for what it is worth (and probably not much) Google gives 1.15 million hits for Eastern Gray Squirrel and 1.22 million for Eastern Grey Squirrel. Given that a number of those hits probably come from European and British sites, it looks as if it is about even between Gray and Grey. Interstingly the split does seem to have no logic, with a site in Mitchigan using Grey [1] and a site in Virginia using Gray [2] . It is isn't helped by the inconcistenecy between this articles title and its text. As it is an American species, I would be content with a consensus view from the American side of the argument as long as the specific references in the text to the issues in the UK can continue to simply call it the Grey squirrel. Mrs Trellis 13:20, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I use "gray", and consider it the normal US spelling. "Grey" sounds very British to me. --Blah2 01:58, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Grey doesn't sound British to Canadians Pendragon39 22:04, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm reverting to gray. If someone wants to open a name change proposal they should do so, but it simply looks like bad editing to have two different spellings of the same word in one article. Durova^Charge! 22:25, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

A name change isn't necessary as long as references to this species in Canada and the UK are kept as they are: Grey Pendragon39 00:49, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

It's probably simpler and more sensible all round to have one spelling throughout, but I have to say this makes for a very odd sentence: "In the United Kingdom, the animal is known simply as the gray squirrel and it has few natural predators." Harry R (talk) 09:47, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I have reverted spelling in the British section to 'grey'. There are some external refs for which the original spelling is 'grey' so I have corrected those also. --Graminophile (talk) 16:08, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Black squirrels

Without objections, I'm going to add Princeton University to list of places noted for large numbers of black squirrels (they're pretty well known here - they even mention the squirrels in the university tour!) BethEnd 21:32, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I just added Ottawa, Ontario, to list of locations with melanistic colonies, as well. Esseh 04:36, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Calgary Alberta has thousands of these all over the city.Twhanna 21:59, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[[3]]

[edit] New pictures

Use them if you want.

Gray squirrel 1.jpg

Gray squirrel 2.jpg

Gray squirrel 3.jpg

Good lord those are beautiful pics. I live in Spokane WA, USA and I'm trying to determine whether the one living in my yard is an Eastern, a Western, or a Douglas. The pictures I've taken of it very clear, and I'm probably about 50% sure its not a Western. (it seems to have more color, like an orange tint on the belly, but this is out of my own hazy recollection- Also, I'm told Westerns are nearly extinct in this area) I'm trying to research some definative differences, but does anyone have any quick ideas?--Arkcana 19:20, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Quick response: easterns have fluffier tails and are more tolerant of humans. Put a few peanuts into your hand and sit very still for about five minutes. If the squirrel is bold enough to take the food it's almost certainlly a gray. Durova^Charge! 22:29, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

This is not remotely encyclopedic, but one of our cats carefully carried a dehydrated young squirrel, who was small but had fur and eyes open, to my housemate. She treated him like one of her kittens. When wildlife rehabilitators in our area had no space, my housemate, who really does have rehab experience, and not being willing to euthanize him, decided to foster him. He has grown greatly, and, although we'll see in adulthood, tolerates humans very well. After weaning, he started enjoying a wider range of foods. On his first exposure to acorns, however, we have concluded they have a squirrel equivalent of methamphetamine.

At least six of our cats are utterly fascinated by him, with no signs of predatory interest. They sit near his enclosure and watch him move, rather like spectators at Wimbleton, but politely mystified. While we had tried to avoid it, a couple of the cats did get up to the edge of his enclosure, and the two species touched noses, making species-specific noises. His now having no fear of cats may prevent full release, although we plan on an even larger indoor-outdoor enclosure. Howard C. Berkowitz 19:11, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Predators

Should domestic cats be added to the list of predators? 87.113.53.89 13:39, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Can you verify that domestic cats actually eat the things?--Marhawkman 11:26, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

My cats have brought full grown grey squirrels up to the porch. I have also seen them catch and eat them. I used to have a picture but i seemed to have misplaced it.

How can their predators include domestic cats and owls and yet at the same time have no natural predators in the UK? Either there are no domestic cats or owls in the UK; domestic cats and owls are not their natural predators; or they do have natural predators in the UK. Which is it? 193.130.154.29 08:40, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

would this count as proof that cats are predators? http://www.flickr.com/photos/shotage/1552013372/ --Marhawkman 12:25, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

You're correct -- it's sort of a bizarre statement. Strangely enough (and perhaps this indicates my own bizarre nature), I understand fully what is meant by it. Natural predators is often used as a sort of shorthand for saying "predators co-adapted to the species within their native range". I think it would be a stretch to call domestic cats natural predators of grey squirrels although they are, without question, predators. There probably is a cat species (bobcat?) or two (lynx?) within the species' native range that are co-adapted. Owls are a darn good question. I don't know enough about owls to know whether there exists in the UK a species of owl that also exists in the grey squirrel's native range. (It wouldn't surprise me if there were.) The sentence, as it is written, has a specific meaning to an ecologist. That does not make it, however, factually correct. Nor does it mean that the article should be written solely to be understood by ecologists. — Dave (Talk | contribs) 14:52, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Well the picture is specific to the problem of Grays in Britain. The cat in the picture lives in Wales(it's not mine so I'm not 100% sure). It seems to like reducing their population. Britain seems to have been so heavily urbanized that natural predators as a whole are largely extinct. Thus leaving domesticated predators as the only ones. There's certainly a lacking in natural predators in much of the gray range in the US, but it's not completely lacking. Then again in this case, as you mentioned, there are no natural predators in Britain, since the gray isn't native to Britain at all. --Marhawkman 17:06, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

well, the feral domestic cat might be considered a "natural predator"; there also exist a remnant population of European wildcats in britain, but undoubtedly they're too rare to have an impact on any squirrel populations. there have been many reports over the past couple of years on a (new?) breeding pop of Eurasian eagle owls. doesn't the u.k. have common buzzards? i'm sure they prey on many many rodents of all types. - Metanoid (talk, email) 17:03, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] grey squirrels that have red hair?

First off I'm no expert, I just really like squirrels but this has been puzzling me for a while. I have observed a number of squirrels in London (Hyde Park/Kensington Gardens maybe also Brompton Cemetry Park) with rather red hair. I know they must be grey squirrels: red squirrels in the UK are limited to the islands and up north, and also by their diet (they eat most things unless they smell peanuts on you!) I also know that white (albino greys) and black squirrels are technically grey squirrels by classification. Does anyone know about greys that look red? 141.2.215.190 15:17, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Based on my observations and descriptions of various squirrel species articles on Wikipedia, the gray squirrel is not completely gray, as the Delmarva fox squirrel seems more close to a "pure" coloration. The gray squirrel is quite red, especially on top, on the face, and sometimes in the tail. I wouldn't assume that a species couldn't appear somewhere - wildlife migrates erratically especially under human influence - however a fox squirrel would be easy to recognize and differentiate from a gray squirrel. --71.231.39.153 (talk) 21:05, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] living in the attic

i have a aquirrel living in my attic. there are two ways he gets in and out and i fear he might have some babies in there. any suggestions on what to do if anything. i would like it gone.

In the UK it's illegal to remove a breeding animal without permission from the council in many jurisdictions, even common mammals like Eastern Grey/Grays. In the US it's apparently determined by state law. Phone up your local authority and ask them. If they can't tell you then I would advise hiring pest control to destroy the Squirrel's Nest, as in the UK they can be legally considered pests in many situations, and in the US if it's bothering you, it's a pest ;). [Drey] JavaJawaUK 18:01, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edit war over the low-pitched sound

I'm mildly amused by a succession of edits trying to reproduce what appears to be the squirrel version of a purr -- a contented or possibly affectionate sound to a human on whom a young squirrel imprinted. It sounds like "urk urk urk" to me. Would a recording of Waffles be a primary or secondary source, or would he be accused of OR? Howard C. Berkowitz 21:51, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Well.... trying to interpret the sound's meaning would be OR. Adding a recording of the sound along with a referenced source for interpretation is cool.--Marhawkman 21:32, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I shall inquire, of Waffles, if he can recommend a source for interpretation. Just for the record, he is an Eastern Gray Squirrel, who probably thinks he's a cat. Howard C. Berkowitz 22:40, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Best food to attract squirrels

I hunt e.g. squirrels. what are the best plants to plant to attract e.g. squirrels?Redneckhb1 23:51, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Depends I think, sunflower seeds attract one near my home (nuts are probably more likely to be collected in winter for storage), so I think the season needs to be kept in mind. --71.231.39.153 (talk) 21:06, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Historical range versus modern/actual range

So there are reports of people seeing these in places much farther away from what is listed in the article (i.e. west coast of the U.S. - Washington). How do we deal with this? --71.231.39.153 (talk) 21:12, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

isolated reports do not require mention. If the Department of Wildlife in a state has stated that they live there, then that may be worthwhile.--Marhawkman (talk) 11:57, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

There's also a chance that amateur reports misidentified the western gray squirrel. Durova^Charge! 16:19, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Squirrel soup vs. fertilizer

Obviusly an ecologically friendly person, such as myself, cannot in good conscience endorse extermination as a means of population control, but soup? Soup is both tasty and a good way to reduce the population. (insert smiley with fork and spoon) It helps control populations, thus leading to longer healthier lives for the squirrels (at least the ones you don't eat). It also really tasty. (insert drooling smiley here)

Any ideas on whether we could work this into the article? I'm only halfway joking.--Marhawkman (talk) 10:06, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Yet another classic idea that oh so many people would oppose. I doubt that we would be able to get it into an encyclopedia without an article to back it. So there is the option of writing one, if you have a newspaper that would publish it. I wonder if there is a squirrel trapping season that you could get a license for. Hmmmmm.... --Cynops3 (talk) 14:41, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

There is something already in the article that heads in this general direction. Some guys in Britain tried to get the public to think of squirrels as food. It seems that only cats took their advice though.

Here's an article on the recent popularity of squirrel meat: http://lifeandhealth.guardian.co.uk/food/story/0,,2279357,00.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by Augerik (talk • contribs) 20:14, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't know of anywhere that actually has licences for squirrel hunting. in the woods no one cares, and you typically aren't allowed to shoot things in the city. thus leaving live traps as the only capture means in cities.--Marhawkman (talk) 19:06, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

In some rural areas of the eastern United States people occasionally hunt squrrels, I've heard. You'd need a cite for that and I don't have one. They don't have much meat on them and aren't a popular game species. Durova^Charge! 19:23, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

That's why you cook 'em to make soup. :p You skin, and clean them, then toss 'em in a pot to cook takes the work out of removing the meat from the bones. They're not a popular game species as there's little risk involved in hunting them, and little difficulty. They can't really hurt you, and you don't have to stalk them for hours.--Marhawkman (talk) 22:13, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Recipes are outside Wikipedia's scope. Durova^Charge! 17:09, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

What about adding a link to an outside source?--Marhawkman (talk) 13:46, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Try Wikibooks. Durova^Charge! 03:21, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Proposing new pic for infobox

current

proposed

The angle of the current pic is a little weird. The proposed pic looks brighter/more crisp and gives a better view of the tail. The left side could be cropped to give more focus on the squirrel. --220.255.7.245 (talk) 03:26, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

I like the lighting on the old one better. The new one is too bright.--Marhawkman (talk) 07:24, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Distribution

Something needs to be done with this section. It currently says: "The eastern gray squirrel is common throughout most of its natural range and wherever it has been introduced." What kind of shit is that? That doesn't tell you a single thing about their distribution. It basically says "they can be found wherever they live". (14 April 2008)

Some species are only rarely encountered. regardless of where in their range you look. grey squirrels are very common in their range.--Marhawkman (talk) 10:40, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Image in taxobox

Image:Eastern Gray Squirrel.JPG appears to be a fox squirrel. It should not be restored to the taxobox. --Aranae (talk) 01:54, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Ah, Edit it to fix the title. :)--Marhawkman (talk) 10:24, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] area occupied

I don't know the technical name for this concept (it's apparently NOT "range"...) but how much land area does one gray squirrel occupy? And how many gray squirrels co-occupy a given land area? That is, are the ones in my yard covering the whole neighborhood, and how many are in the whole neighborhood, approximately?