Talk:East Midlands Airport

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I was born in Nottingham and lived there 'till I was 27. I have never before heard the word 'nottinghamite', and it just sounds wrong to me.

Oh, also, there is already an airport in Nottinghamshire (at Tollerton), and I would think of that if anyone ever said 'Nottingham Airport' to me.

Removed 'nottinghamite', was just an informalism of mine. And yes, so would I. But nontheless the suggestion is seriously made and has got TV coverage on East Midlands Today. Morwen 12:34, 6 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Changing the name to NEMA was a very good idea. Nottingham is where nearly all the toursits go to beacuse of Robin Hood and so on.

Contents

[edit] Actual location in relation to the original RAF Castle Donington.

I was wondering whether this article should point out that East Midlands airport is not actually directly on the site of RAF Castle Donington but rather just East of it. The original RAF station is now Donington Park race-track. (The peri-track forms the course of the racetrack). - Any thoughts on whether to include this info?

[edit] Location of NEMA on a map

The article says 'that the city (Nottingham)had greater international recognition through its size and historical connections. This was theory was somewhat blown to pieces when the BBC's local news program East Midlands Today travelled to Amsterdam. Whilst there they asked locals the location of Nottingham on a map of the UK. The vast majority failed.'

I wonder how many of the Amsterdamers would know where Derby or Leicester was on a map? How many people in the UK could indentify accurately where the likes of Birmingham, Manchester or Leeds was on a map. The argument against NEMA seems pretty pedantic to me. Bevo74 15:27, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

I think the argument is just mainly focused on the fact that the airport is in the county of Leicestershire. It has a Derbyshire postcode and is nearer to Derby than any other major city. If anything is should be classed as Leicester Airport as it's in that County geographically. As you said that most people would not be able to point out Derby and Leicester aswell as Nottingham and that the best argument for keeping it as East Midlands Airport as anyone with half a brain can find the east of the middle part. But if you have to give it a city name then it should be Leicester, it is in the county for Christ sake. jimmmmmmmmm 23:32, 20 November 2005


Geographically 'Nottingham' is not a correct name and of course there was already a 'Nottingham Airport' I think the point of the name change was an attempt to raise the profile of the airport, not give an accurate geographical location. Unsatisfactory as though NEMA is nobody seems to have a better idea. Although I wonder if after two years there has been an increase in foreign vistors? or are they all flying to Doncaster........... Bevo74 07:52, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Just a note about RAF Castle Donington. It is true that the military did occupy Donington Hall, formerly owned by the Hastings Family, now the HQ of bmi british midland. Donington Park motor racing circuit is in the former estate of Donington Hall. The present airport IS located on the site of the former RAF Castle Donington. It was the RAF that laid the initial runways, the current 09/27 orientation being one of them, just on the north side of the perimeter fencing it is still possible to see features such as an air raid shelter and gunner posts in the fields. Also - a very old windmill, a landmark stood at the top of Diesworth Lane, was pulled down during WW2 as it was such a visible feature right next to the RAF station. The site of the windmill is were the present day emergency access gates block the former continuation of Diseworth Lane from Castle Donington to Diseworth, Leicestershire.


Shouldn't there be something about the recent change of flight plan and the controversy over a second runway?


[edit] Morwen

What in the name of God have you been smoking and can I have some!!! The is no such thing as a Derbyshire post-code? Are you serious? http://www.nottinghamema.com/en/contact/index.html try checking thing out before you mess up articles eh!

Jimmmmmmmmm 26th April 2006 18:39

While the point that it is patently silly to call it Nottingham East Midlands Airport is valid, it is already sufficiently well covered in the article, I'm afraid. Noisy | Talk 18:02, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

I think the point that it has a Derbyshire post code is very valid and highlights the stupidity. Also Morwen said in her edit notes "no such thing as a Derbyshire post code" which by clicking above lick is obviously not true.

Jimmmmmmmmm 26th April 2006 19:16


Morwen is correct post-codes are based on postal towns, not on counties. NEMA's postal town is Derby. I live on the Notts/Derbys border from where I can see Sandiacre which is in Derbys but has a NG postcode. Bevo74 20:49, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


I have since been made aware of this fact but surley all it warrented was Morwen deleting the word 'Shire' rather than the whole statement.

Jimmmmmmmmm 10th May 2006 13:08

Can you cut out the abuse, please. Thanks, Morwen - Talk 16:51, 15 May 2006 (UTC)


Can you stop being such a fool then! Jimmmmmmmmm 16th May 2006 13:08


Since when was Nottingham 'capital' of the East Midlands? A few hundred civil servants does not a capital city make. As the Wikipedia page Capital says, the term isn't used for English Regions. Nottingham is 'administrative centre' at best, but the Regional Assembly meets in Melton Mowbray so even that honour is shared. (Incidentally, 'Loughborough East Midlands Airport' has a certain ring to it don't you think?) Breazecatcher 22:50, 19 August 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Name Change

Now that the name has been changed back, this article should really be at East Midlands Airport with this page redirecting to that one, rather than the other way round. If there's someone who could do this without getting into the mess that I would be likely to get it into, it would be appreciated.--Michig 08:57, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

OK, done. Thanks.--Michig 09:57, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
On the BBC, it just mentioned that the official name of the Airport was to change to "East Midlands Airport Nottingham Leicester Derby". Simply south 11:04, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
But, how is this long form of the name punctuated? The logo has bullet points in it and stuff. I'd be happy to have it at East Midlands Airport Nottingham Leicester Derby if that really does pick up in usage: I think though common usage, and the airport's own usage, will just be to remove the "Nottingham" in general usage, and reserve the mouthful for hyper-formal occasions or marketing. Morwen - Talk 11:31, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm actually use to East Midlands and didn't read the article propoerly. Probably leave it as is. Simply south 11:34, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
The 'Nottingham-Leicester-Derby' part is really just a subtitle. Most people continued calling it 'East Midlands Airport' last time the name was changed, and I can't see that being any different now.--Michig 11:37, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Unsurprisingly, there are still sites/articles out there referring to the airport by its old name. This does not mean that the old name is still valid. Please don't cite these as evidence that the airport is still known as 'Nottingham East Midlands Airport'. If anyone feels the need to change this back once again, please discuss it here and reach a consensus before doing so.--Michig 19:26, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nottingham East Midlands/East Midlands

First off it is not my intention to try and get the airport name changed or the article moved but just to get accuracy in what different "official" names there are currently in use.

Right now there seems to be a real misunderstanding as to how airport naming works. The operating authority will call the airport what they want and this is one "official name", in the case of this article "East Midlands Airport" is what the agency uses. This name will in turn tend to be used by other airports, airlines, travel agents and the International Air Transport Association. This is also for the most part what the public will call the airport and where the article will be in Wikipedia as per Wikipedia:Naming conventions#Use common names of persons and things.

There is however sometimes a second name and this is also an "official name". This name is used by the government, through the Civil Aviation Authority, in this case the United Kingdom Civil Aviation Authority, the International Civil Aviation Organization and by extension this is the name that all pilots or other operating states will see when they refer to official documents about the airport. This is the document known as the Aeronautical Information Publication which includes the aerodrome chart and text data with the name on it. In the UK the AIP is published by UK Aeronautical Information Service (AIS), which is a department of the National Air Traffic Services, which is in turn 49% owned by the UK government as a Public-private partnership. They are also a member of the Civil Air Navigation Services Organisation as is the United States Federal Aviation Administration. The AIP is also available from European Organisation for the Safety of Air Navigation.

As you can see this is not some minor organisation or a random web site like this that is using the name Nottingham but the UK government, etc. There was also a reversion saying the materials were out of date. They are not out of date because they don't change until there is a change necessary. Now in the case of airport names this could happen tomorrow but it can also take years for it to happen which is also why the other name should be in the article until then. An example of this is the Liverpool John Lennon Airport which was renamed in 2002 but is still listed in the UK AIP as "Liverpool Airport", four years later. If you look at other airports on Wikipedia you can see that several airports hae this dual naming, City of Derry Airport is in the AIP "Londonderry/Eglinton Airport". CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 08:06, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

The issue here is that proper citations are required, or if they can't be provided, consensus needs to be reached to avoid continuous reverts. The EMA website provides sufficient evidence for the East Midlands Airport name. Of the three citations that are now included in the article for Nottingham East Midlands Airport, one is a website welcome page that doesn't mention EMA (if a more useful page appears after logging in to the site then this perhaps isn't a suitable citation), one is dated from March 2006 (and hasn't been updated since the name change), and the other is a map from 2006. If Nottingham East Midlands Airport is still used but only for certain purposes, perhaps this could be clearer in the article. We might then be able to agree to leave the article alone (until the relevant agencies get round to updating their documentation).--Michig 09:39, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
You need to take another look at the article there are now 5 links to government documents showing the use of Nottingham in the name:
  1. CAA’s initial price control proposals for Heathrow, Gatwick and Stansted airports December 2006 Supporting paper I Separate Regulation of Airports is a poor example as it's a propsal paper.
  2. UK Aeronautical Information Service (AIS) - "UK AIP, Aerodrome Chart 2-EGNX-2-1 31 August 2006", I agree that this is not a great example either because of the need to register but there is no way around that.
  3. North & Scotland frequency reference card 11 May 06, publised by the United Kingdom Civil Aviation Authority (UKCAA) with the card shows the name that pilots around the world will currently see.
  4. East Midlands/Birmingham 04 Aug 06 a map, again published by the UKCAA, with the name that pilots would see.
  5. "UK AIP, Aerodrome Text Data 2-EGNX-1-1 16 March 2006" from the European Organisation for the Safety of Air Navigation , which links directly to the text data but could be changed to link to the aerodrome chart.
I may be wrong but the impression I get is that you are saying the UKCAA (a government body) is not a valid source for this airport even though it is for other UK airports. As to the dates of the information, there is no new date because the information has not changed. Yes, the airport operator changed the name but the government didn't. In fact have just reviewed the "Aeronautical Information Regulation and Control" update for 15 March 2007 I see that the name is still given as Nottingham. Here are two links that I just found on the AIS site that don't require a log in, LONDON FIR & AERODROME IFR/VFR BRIEFING and NAVIGATION WARNINGS both of which are dated 07/02/09 and mention Nottingham East Midlands. Also here is the user guide to the AIS site. I don't mean for you to read the whole thing but hus look at the page numbered 2 which explains about AIS and what the AIP is. By the way in the East Midlands Airport#Identity section I did try and explain who uses the other name. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 12:05, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
You may be absolutely correct that some agencies still refer to the airport as Nottingham East Midlands Airport, but that isn't really the point. References to documents produced prior to the name change only provide evidence of what the name was, not what it is now. The 'native name' field in the infobox is incorrect, as the native name is the same as the 'name' (common usage and the name that the airport itself uses would seem to me to override other alternatives). The detail in the Identity section is sufficient to explain the usage, rather than presenting two alternative names at the start of the document, which is at present misleading (unless, perhaps, you're a pilot).--Michig 12:22, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Calling the UKCAA "some agencies" isn't really correct when it's the UK government. If you look at Wikipedia:WikiProject Airports/Infobox it says "{{{nativename}}} - (optional) the native name of the airport if using Western characters; can also be used for two different names in the same language (see Toronto Pearson International Airport)" It's used in cases like Toronto where the government and the operator have different names. "nativename" in this case is similar to when you edit the line in the box that says "closest town" but in fact is shown as where the airport serves otherwise that would say "Castle Donington" which would not really be correct. On the other hand haing just remembered Singapore Changi Airport and the Talk:Singapore Changi Airport#Names in multiple languages, Talk:Singapore Changi Airport#Names in multiple languages (Reprise) and Talk:Singapore Changi Airport#Result of Mediation on name in multiple languages I will remove it from the opening sentence but leave it in the box as is standard with other airport articles. The reason there aren't any documents after the operators name change is because the government hasn't changed the name.
Thanks for the changes. I think the article makes more sense now. Some agencies seem to be using 'East Midlands Airport' now (e.g. IATA if the article is correct) - if the UKCAA is not an 'agency' I think that's stretching the point a bit. Whilst the UK government may have 'official' names that it uses, I think it's up to the company running the airport in question to decide what the name of the airport actually *is*. Hopefully this aspect of the article can be left alone now. --Michig 13:16, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Should Nottingham East Midland still be used at the top of the info box then. If it confusing to have two names at the start of the article surley this is just as confusing. Jimmmmmmmmm 13:23, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
It would be better if the Infobox made it clear what the 'second' name refers to, to avoid confusion. If the 2 most recognized bodies are IATA and ICAO, it would perhaps be better to have fields in the infobox for 'IATA name' and 'ICAO name', to be used if different to 'name', but that's one for discussion elsewhere, I think. Maybe CambridgeBayWeather could advise on whether such a change to the infobox would be appropriate? --Michig 13:35, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure that clarifying the names has ever come up before. In the infobox of most of the articles the common or operators name is used first with the government name used second so as to comply with Wikipedias naming convention. It's hard to be sure what name IATA use as there appears to be no free listing of names available at their site. I tried a couple of other code searches but they produced odd results such as East Midlands Castle Donington as a name or were outdated. However, A-Z World Airports, a usually reliable source uses East Midlands. I also checked what the airlines listed in the article are using and the all use East Midlands, except for BA which uses "Nottingham (East Midlands)". Some of the airlines in the article are also part of the National Air Traffic Services who would be the ones to make the AIP chage from the Nottigham part. The whole thing of what is the "real official" name can get very confusing. Look at Winnipeg James Armstrong Richardson International Airport. In December of 2006 the Canadian government announced they were changing the name as shown here. There is no indication if the airport operator wanted the new name. Also as of 18 January the Canadian version of the AIP was still calling the airport Winnipeg International. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 14:43, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the info - clearly not as straightforward an issue as I had hoped. Would it help to have (ICAO) after 'Nottingham East Midlands Airport' (perhaps with a suitable comment)? It would then be (more) obvious why that version of the name was there and would hopefully dissuade anyone from removing it, thinking it to be a mistake. We could then perhaps remove the citations from the infobox. --Michig 15:01, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Took the rest of the day off yesterday. You might be right that there may need to be some way of explaining why those particular names are used. One way that might work is, as you suggest, using the term ICAO in the box and was done at the City of Derry Airport. Another possible way is too link the name in the infobox directly to the reference section. However, I am not that good with templates and not sure if it would be possible. On top of that I just saw this edit. I think that I will bring both issues up at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Airports to try and get some concensus as to what should be in the box and the first line. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 12:35, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

have u got that snsfsoefoigniwoeg —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.158.209.65 (talk) 13:16, 9 March 2008 (UTC)