Talk:East London line

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject London Transport, an attempt at creating a standardised, informative, comprehensive and easy-to-use resource on London's transport system. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page or visit the Portal.
B	This article has been rated as B-Class on the assessment scale. (add assessment comments)
High	This article has been rated as high-importance within the London Transport WikiProject.

The route diagram template for this article can be found in Template:East London Line.

Contents 1 Early Rollingstock 2 Wapping and Rotherhithe 3 East London Railway 4 Opening Date?! 5 Extension completion update (January 4, 2006) 6 ELLP\East London Line Extension 7 Privatisation 8 NLL: along or parallel? 9 Northern City Line 10 The Londoner 11 Closure Date 12 Name literally 13 Leaflets and links 14 Future of the ELL 15 Wapping, Rotherhithe Short Platforms and Canada Water 16 Updating the articles 17 Requested move 18 Merge with Overground 19 Why the shift from Underground to Overground? 20 North Battersea station??? 21 Dead Ending at Clapham Junction???

[edit] Early Rollingstock

I think it would be a good to say something about the early locos and rollingstock that worked this line, such as The Terriers, The D1s, and later the Buckjumpers. To this end I've just added a little mention of the famous Terriers (after all Stroudley designed them specifically for London suburban work). Would anyone like to add more, perhaps about Stroudley's coachs, or the various other locos that worked the line in its steam days? Skekayuk 11:00, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wapping and Rotherhithe

I just received this email from the ELLE mailing list, so have amended the comment about these two stations in the section Proposed Extensions.

Subject: Wapping and Rotherhithe
From:   <admin@ellp.co.uk> 
Date:   Wed, August 18, 2004 14:57 
To:     Owen Blacker 
Priority:       Normal 
Mailer:         Microsoft CDO for Windows 2000  

Dear Owen

The Mayor of London has formally announced that the stations at both Wapping
and Rotherhithe that have been classed as being 'under review' will now
remain open when phase one of the project is delivered in June 2010.

It has also been confirmed that responsibility for delivering this project
will be transferred from the Strategic Rail Authority to Transport for
London in the autumn.

Yours

Peter
 
 
 
Peter Boxell
Head of communications
East London Line Project

— OwenBlacker 14:08, Aug 18, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] East London Railway

There are a large number of references to the East London Railway in other articles. There was, however no article as such. This is one of the penalties of writing articles about present-day situations - ie the East London Line - and then putting in its history. Like many early joint railways (which this one undoubtedly was since it was owned by six mainline/suburban railway companies), this began as a steam-operated line giving its owners access to each others' lines by-passing London. I have therefore written an article giving much of the information shown under 'History' here. Peter Shearan 10:49, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Nice work, but can you put a link in East London Railway to the East London Line somewhere? Frankie Roberto

[edit] Opening Date?!

Intro to the article claims -

Its history is connected with that of six other railway companies since its opening in 1865.

Very next line -

The ELR was originally opened in 1869,

And yet none of the stations appear to have opened until 1884.

What's the truth here?

[edit] Extension completion update (January 4, 2006)

From admin@ellp.co.uk Wed Jan  4 16:51:11 2006
From: admin@ellp.co.uk
Return-Path: <admin@ellp.co.uk>
To: XXXXXX@XXXXXX.XXXXXX
Envelope-To: XXXXXX@XXXXXX.XXXXXX
Message-ID: <05dc01c6114f$01c60100$1942140a@shrgb.hbxgb.win2003.hostway>
X-Mailer: Microsoft CDO for Windows 2000
Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 16:50:45 -0000
Delivery-date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 16:51:11 +0000
Subject: East London Line 4 Jan 06

Dear Owen

As we enter 2006, the project continues at pace.  The project remains on
schedule to be delivered by June 2010 in accordance with Olympic
documentation.

Construction:

Repair and replacement of 21 bridges along the Kingsland Viaduct began in
May 2005 and remains on schedule to finish in the autumn of 2006.

Status of contracts:

Bids for the £500M main works contract will be returned to the project on 31
March 2006.  Once evaluation has taken place, the successful bidder is
likely to be announced in the summer of 2006 and begin work in autumn 2006.

Proposals from four train manufacturers arrived today and will be evaluated
to determine who will be chosen to provide Rolling Stock for the operational
railway.  A decision will be made at Easter 2006.

More specific details are available on the project website at www.ellp.co.uk

Yours

Peter Boxell
Head of stakeholder Management
East London Line Project

ellp@tfl.gov.uk
0800 XXXXXXX

15 Bonhill Street
London EC2A 4DN

[edit] ELLP\East London Line Extension

Hi, just to say i created articles on Shoreditch High Street station, Haggerston station and Hoxton station but they need improvement. This is in preperation as they are now under construction or at least soon will be, i think. Anyway, i have used station instead of tube station or railway station as it is unclear whether this will actually be part of the London Underground or National Rail due to stock etc. Simply south 14:36, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

It definitely will not be part of the Underground. MRSC 15:55, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it's clear at this stage whether the line will be branded as part of the Underground. Have you any evidence one way or the other? I expect that it will be branded in the same way as the North London Line (currently Silverlink) that TFL is going to take over soon. But we don't exactly know how AFAIK. BTW I've noticed some new bridges up along the viaduct now, so work is well underway. Trious 12:54, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

It is totally clear. It will be managed by London Rail, not London Underground and will use mainline rolling stock. Read the docs available on the TfL/GLA websites. They have not shouted from the rooftops that the line will be converted to heavy rail as many people will perceive this as less good than an "Underground" service, particularly folks in south London who beleive "the tube is coming". House prices increase more when there is a tube station than a rail station, even if the rail service is quicker or more frequent. MRSC 14:57, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

If it is overground and not underground, does this mean goodbye ELL? (btw what does AFAIK mean?) Simply south 15:25, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Hmm well I've just looked into this, and it seems from here [1] that it will be branded with the LU roundel but with the word "Rail" on the blue bit. But unless we have any concrete statement by TfL about this, I'm not sure we should mention it. (I'm sure people will think of it as an Underground line though - as they'll see the roundel and will think no more about it...) (AFAIK="as far as i know") Trious 17:23, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

All TfL divisions use the roundel now, despite not being part of the Underground, even the Public Carriage Office. MRSC 18:59, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Well I think that if the London Rail roundel is used, in red and blue, then to the average man/woman on the street, these stations will be called "Undergound" stations. That's all I meant. However, if we don't categorise the new stations as Underground Stations, what will happen to the old ELL stations? Maybe we should make a new category for London Rail stations, and put the new ELL stations in, the NLL stations etc, and then move Rotherhithe, Wapping, etc to this category when the extention opens.Trious 21:12, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

That's not red and blue, that is brown and blue, the colour combination used by London Rail on its version of the Roundel. personally I think that just leaving it as station would be fine, we only need to make the distinction when there are two stations of the same name, eg West Hampstead MrWeeble Talk Brit tv 22:33, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

I would leave the existing stations as they are now. We are talking about something that is due to open in 2010. MRSC 06:21, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I just found an interesting new brochure [2] - it has some pics of the new bridge to be built over the canal. I liked the old one personally. Trious 17:27, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

I have taken the plunge and changed the wording concerning the roundel. I think it always was clear that it would not be a true underground symbol. I have described it as best I can (if you can do better ...). I know we have not had a definite statement but I think we can treat the various TfL commisioned artists drawings of the new stations as sufficient evidence of this.--Pedantic of Purley 17:05, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I think that the colour isn't supposed to be like the current East London Line colour, but it's a new colour for London Rail to be used on the North London Line, etc, too.Trious 23:23, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

BBC news (see below, as in whovever posted Privatisation) seems to say that the East London Line is the first Underground Line to be privatised. So i am assuming they are saying that this will be still a London Underground line and not National Rail\Overground Simply south 13:45, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

The free newspaper that Londoners get (called "The Londoner", an original title I think you'll agree) has a story in the latest edition stating "Hackney to get its first tube station", going on to describe the basics of the northern extension to the ELL. I think this is reasonably conclusive that the East London Line is staying as part of London Underground. As speculation, could it be that London Rail are responsible for getting the extension ready to avoid London Underground "paying" for it? [3] Hammersfan 24/05/06, 22.15 BST

I'd guess that the ELL extention will be branded "London Rail", but using the similar roundel to the LU, so most people won't notice or appreciate the difference, and TfL etc will probably try to blur the difference anyway. Trious 10:59, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

To jump into this debate at a late stage, I'd like to say that there is absolutely no "official" confusion over who will run the ELL upon completion - it will NOT be London Underground. BBC News is a poor source of information on this topic, as they consistently get the facts wrong - for example, the previously-mentioned story on the alleged leaked memo showing that the ELL would be closed for two years was not a "scoop" at all and was not even news - it had been in the public domain for months beforehand.

Upon completion, the entire ELL will be run as part of TfL's North London Railway concession, managed by their London Rail division, as demonstrated in this press release. The track will be maintained by Network Rail, and the only involvement London Underground will have with the line is management of the ELL platforms at the interchange stations of Whitechapel and Canada Water. They will not be involved in anything to do with the rest of the line.

The use of the term "tube station" in The Londoner is nothing more than a marketing simplification to avoid the long-winded explanation given above. --Dave A 12:10, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

LU will continue to control signals and power between Dalston and New Cross/New Cross Gate upon reopening as this section will not become part of the National Rail (or Network rail) systems. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.129.87.65 (talk) 20:01, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Privatisation

interesting news, but I'm not sure of accuracy, so don't treat it as gospel... 193.62.111.10 09:41, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Interesting stuff... I don't understand why they'd need to shut the entire line though, given that the work would be done at the far ends? -- ChrisO 10:02, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

I had already always assumed that once it became a NR line it would be franchised out, like all the others. Interesting that it will join the North London Line franchise though, definately suggests a move to orbirail MrWeeble Talk Brit tv 10:08, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

The closure of the entire line is needed to upgrade signaling to NR standards. I think they also need to lay new track and change the electrification from four rail to three (with the return current passing through the running rails). Wilmot1 17:45, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NLL: along or parallel?

The article currently says:

In phase 2, the line will be extended to run parallel to the North London Line, going through Canonbury and terminating at Highbury & Islington'

I think this is wrong Every piece of literature I can find says "along", not "parallel", and some of the proposed eventual service patterns imply the existing NLL track will be used. --88.110.189.21

I can't see how it could possibly run parallel to the NLL, considering it's a two-line track in a rather confined space! -- ChrisO 13:39, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

There's an intermediate; some extra track may need to be constructed to allow overtaking of freight trains. Some parts are already three-track; these parts may need to be extended or a fourth track added along others. However, in either case, ELL trains will still share with NLL services. --Dave A 15:29, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Northern City Line

It will become the first-ever line to "secede" from the London Underground

what about the Northern City Line? Morwen - Talk 10:10, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Agreed -will change article slightlySurfermoon 11:14, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Londoner

I'm going to take a guess that most of the editors here are Londoners, in which case you might get that paper from the mayor. Its got a double page spread towards the middle about the East London Line. Just letting you know. RHB 20:55, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Closure Date

The article says the ELL will close from 22 December 2007, and the linked PDF confirms this. But the posters in Canada Water Tube station say it closes from 23 December, not 22. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.240.75.194 (talk) 10:33, 29 January 2007 (UTC).

This has caused confusion elsewhere too!!! If I recall correctly the last train will run on 22nd December and the 23rd will be thee first day with no trains!! Wilmot1 17:36, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Name literally

Literally, when was the ELL given its modern name? What specific year? was it 1988? Simply south

[edit] Leaflets and links

A leaflet on the forthcoming closure and upgrade is presently (April 2007) available from stations on the ELL.

The links to the "official" pages do not work. Jackiespeel 18:06, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Future of the ELL

According to today's thelondonpaper the ELL is going to be incorporated into a "London Overground" along with the North London Line. Jackiespeel 18:24, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

This is also my understanding, If you read anything produced by BBCJV [Balfor Beety Corillian Joint Venture] (East London Line Project team) this seems to confirm. SkippyUK 12:32, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wapping, Rotherhithe Short Platforms and Canada Water

The following text from the main article does not sound correct...

"Because of an inability to extend the platforms at the existing Wapping and Rotherhithe stations and make them fully compliant with current rail safety regulations, it was thought that they would be closed, but on 18 August 2004 Ken Livingstone, Mayor of London, announced that both stations will remain open, at least when Phase 1 of the project opens by June 2010."

AFAIK the problem is the width of these platforms, the restricted access from the steps, and the lack of secondary exit - even for emergency use. Length is not a problem, not at all. I say this because when there were through services longer trains than now were run. Plus all stations except Canada Water have unused sections of platforms which can be made available for longer trains. The real problem (AIUI) is that the newest station (Canada Water) was built to only accept 4 car trains. Given that the new trains will be longer than the present trains so this will be a very serious capacity constraint. Since Canada Water is such an important interchange station so unless it is going to be lengthened during the closure (not something I've heard being proposed) so potentially it will seriously restrict future train operations.

btw, according to something I read extra emergency exits *are* to be installed at Wapping (using a former entrance which was closed) and at Rotherhithe (using a former smoke ventilation air duct from when steam freight trains used the line). Alas, I do not recall where I read this, otherwise I'd post a link.

In the meantime this discussion thread (which spreads over 2 pages) might be of interest.

http://groups.google.com/group/uk.transport.london/browse_thread/thread/32c5dc896838fddd/0e1b78f28cf34418?lnk=raot#0e1b78f28cf34418

Citytransport.info (talk) 00:04, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Updating the articles

I'm slightly concerned that the articles haven't been updated. It needs to be done pretty soon. Oh, and merry Christmas. Traintoots (talk) 17:10, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge with Overground

I think this article should be merged with the overgound one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.73.89.19 (talk) 21:30, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Why the shift from Underground to Overground?

I don't think the reason/s for the change are clearly made. What are the differences between passenger operations on "Network Rail" and "Underground" lines? 220.253.43.91 (talk) 13:33, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] North Battersea station???

It is May 2008 when I write this. Does anybody know anything about a North Battersea station (on the East London Line Extension phase 2) and where it might be located? I heard this week that they were thinking of putting in a new station where Culvert Road goes under the train tracks. There is also a foot bridge going over the train tracks to link up with Eversleigh Road. This would seem to be a logical place to put a station/the station. Does anybody know anything? Also, what is the latest on when the extension to Clapham Junction (one stop further) will take place? In time for the Olympics? Thanks in advance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.129.146.0 (talk) 10:08, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

• I wasn't aware funding had been obtained for phase 2. The North Battersea station is part of phase 2, the proposed location is, as far as I am aware, not fixed. It has been suggested here [9] that opposite Queenstown Road station is a good site. Can't help anymore than that, sorry. Hiding T 11:08, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
  • "Opposite the Queenstown Road station" could the same place that I was told, because if you go under that small tunnel at the end of Culvert Road, it curves back along the rail tracks almost all the way to Queenstown Road. It's about a quarter of kilometer long, and all there is back there are light industrial businesses that rent arches underneath the railway. I think it is the same place. I know somebody that is working on drawings for a rail platform along there. Who knows. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.129.146.0 (talk) 15:12, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
• North Battersea station isn't formally part of phase 2 - it would be a new station built under separate powers/funding/etc, and all that that entails. There've been no changes in the status of the extension, although there've been hints recently that funding for it will be announced soon. If it does, they would want it to be finished by not long after December 2011 so it can help out with the disruption caused by the Thameslink Programme at London Bridge, which starts around then. --Mr Thant (talk) 12:44, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Dead Ending at Clapham Junction???

I also writing this in May 2008. I was told today that the Phase 2 extension might not dead-end exactly in the current Clapham Junction, but for whatever reason (Clapham already too crowded?, not enough platform space, etc?), that planners were considering having it dead-end about a hundred yards earlier, across Falcon Road, behind the ASDA superstore. There is certainly disused area there. I was told that they were planning to have an "arcade" (whatever that is) built there along with what would be the new platform. I would guess that there would be an above-the-road walkway from Clapham Junction over Falcon Road to the new "extension platform" and arcade (just guessing). Anybody know anything about this? Thanks in advance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.129.146.0 (talk) 19:20, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Who on earth told you this? The plan would to reopen Platform 1, which is on the north side of Platform 2, the one used by existing London Overground services. This is much cheaper and easier than creating a brand new platform elsewhere. The track to get to it isn't used by very many services at all (almost no passenger services), so there's no problem with reaching it. --Mr Thant (talk) 21:42, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

• • LOL. Okay, I went back to the person that told me this (an older woman that lives in near Clapham Junction), and on further questioning she said that it had nothing to do with the East London Line and nothing to do with new platforms - what she had heard is that it had been discussed to put an "arcade" in behind the Asda store, and as a convenience they would install an entrance to Clapham Junction from the arcade, i.e. there would be a “walk over” constructed over Falcon Road connecting to Clapham Junction, i.e. there would be an extra entrance to Clapham Junction. I would guess that this would involve very little to do with BR/London Overground since the whole thing would have to be paid for by private investors/whoever builds/owns the proposed arcade. But no new platform – just an additional convenient entrance to Clapham Junction. Maybe I should put up a question on the Clapham Junction Discussion page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.129.146.0 (talk) 12:33, 26 May 2008 (UTC)