Image talk:East-Hem 1200ad.jpg

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There are some parts of this map that may need some work. Most of the information was taken off of the Euratlas map of Europe in 1200 AD, as well as maps available on Wikipedia or found via Google. There were some Kingdoms in West Africa around this time (I believe it was the Huasa?), and I'm not very confident in the Central Asian borders, specifically Kara Kitai and the Uyghurs. Also I believe the borders for Kashmir may be off. If you have any information available, please email me at talessman@yis.us, or reply on this page. Thomas Lessman 15:00, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Contents 1 Mongolian tribes 2 Whales or Wales? 3 North-East Europe 4 Yakuts 5 Mali? 6 Explanation of Differences in East-Hem 1200ad 7 The borders of Scandinavian countries are incorrect

[edit] Mongolian tribes

Hi,
The Tatars are shown in the east of Mongolia on your map for 1100, but they are somewhere around the Sayan mountains or Tuva on your map for 1200. I thought I missed such a movement when I was reading the books, so I checked again. The Tatars were chased by Jin Dynasty warlord to the river Ulz in 1190s. This is Northeast of Khentei aimag ("province") and north of Dornod aimag. Then Temujin and Tooril Khan defeated them at Serven Khaalga in Bayanhutag soum (district), to the south of the centre of Khentei aimag. Later, Temujin fought the rest of the Tatars at Dalan Nemurge. Judging by the name of the site, I suppose it's the river Nömrög (Classical spelling is Nömurge), at the eastmost corner of Mongolia. So I think they didn't move to the northwest by 1200 but stayed in the east.
The Taichiud were at the north of the Mongols.
The Merkits were around the northern border of nowadays Mongolia. Later they were chased to Bargujin, around nowadays city Irkutsk in Russia.
The west and east coasts of the Lake Baikal were always populated by Hori Tumet (Buryat). This is important, because Alun-Goo, pro-mother of the Borjigin clan came from there. Her family was moving from Bargujin southwards into modern Mongolia where she met her future husband.
You have shown “Tuvans”. Are you sure that an ethnic group existed under this name in the 12th-13th centuries. Gantuya eng (talk) 03:19, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Tuvans are mentioned among the forest peoples, I think (Tuba). I also think the Mongols should be closer to the Onon river, and the Kereit about where today Ulaanbaatar is. Yaan (talk) 10:32, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the Kereits are said to have been between Hentei range and Hangai range and the camp of Tooril Khan is said to have been in the "groves of the Tuul river", which is approximately nowadays Ulaanbaatar or a bit upper along the river. It's imagined somewhere between the Zaisan bridge and Marshall bridge. There're lots of willow. Gantuya eng (talk) 15:16, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Excellent feedback guys, and I'll definitely fix this and upload the correction soon. Thank you for pointing out my mistake! Thomas Lessman (talk) 15:22, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Whales or Wales?

Is Whales instead of Wales correct, or just a typo? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yaan (talk • contribs) 11:16, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi Yaan. It's a typo, I think I was tired when I labeled Wales. I've corrected it already but am waiting on a few other corrections before I upload the corrected version of the map. Thomas Lessman (talk) 15:06, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] North-East Europe

All bounaries North from Pereyaslavl (you are signing it Pereyslav, it is wrong name) have very, very large distorsions. And you, dear Thomas, can find a lot of differences with source map from Euratlas. I hope this distorsions (up to 500 km, what will be if Paris moves to Amsterdam?) are from your private technical problems, not from based on your private opinion boundaries shift. Any private opinions can be placed at discussion pages in WP, not in articles.Bogomolov.PL (talk) 18:02, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

See my response to same editor's comments below, regarding Yakuts. Same response applies here. Thomas Lessman (talk) 21:03, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Yakuts

Yakuts origin is not at Baikal? You moved Yakuts to the down Ob river - it is 2,500 km shift (as Lisbon moved to Copenhagen). Even if it is technical (technology) problem, such kind of map can not be reliable source and can not be used in WP. You need check your work and after that publish it. Every map has errors, it's true, but not such errors, if it is map...Bogomolov.PL (talk) 18:10, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Listen Bogomolov, I did the best I could on these maps with the information I have available. Getting on here and acting like your mad because I may or may not have made an error definitely won't do anyone any good. Don't accuse me of using private opinions, because I work from the existing information. If it's missing or is inaccurate, I have to do the best I can, which is exactly what I did.

If I made a mistake then it can be corrected - IF you have source info to back up your claim. Even then, you have to show me HOW the map is incorrect, AND show me HOW I can correct it. Look at the above comments from other readers; they do exactly that. And they do it in a way that is not at all accusatory or negative, like your comments are. If you see a possible error, don't get mad at me, instead help me fix it. Otherwise, don't waste my time with a disrespectful attack like you leveled. Sincerely, Thomas Lessman (talk) 20:58, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I need cite myself: "I hope this distorsions are from your private technical problems, not from based on your private opinion boundaries shift". You find something incorrect in this? You can support boundaries shift with reliable sources? If yes - it will be discussion about this sources, not about your work. If no - it is something wrong with your map. I've pointed your attention to the distorsions I've noticed when compared to Euratlas. Is it personal attack? If you really want to improve you map you need really use Euratlas (you listed it as source) and correct your map. How? I can explain you: you take East Hem. map and erase wrong boundaries, next add correct boundaries. Where are correct locations? You really don't see the difference between Euratlas and your map in North-East Europe? Only one example (one, because ALL boundaries in NE Europe are shifted): NW tail of Vladimir-Suzdal land on your map is on White Sea, near actual Arkhangelsk, but Euratlas places this tail south of Lake Beloye (Vologda Oblast) or 350 miles south.

You claim the WP was source for this map creation, ok. Yakuts article places yakuts at Baikal (1200 A.D.). Did you use some different (not WP) source? I don't know, but if so - it is necessary to correct WP article, isn't it? I've found this problem, but only you can resolve it, not me. And I am sure that me, you or somebody else have check every map first. Or you don't think so?

My opinion is about your map, not you personally. Your intention to create this kind of map is positive. But your map has errors and when I'm pointing them my aspiration for cooperation you call disrespectful attack. But how I can name "error"? Or "distorsion"? I have tell: Your map is great? But it will not be correct yet. This discussion page is an evidence.

Distorsion is a professional term for geometric(al) error (I'm a cartographer) and has no emotional senses. Bogomolov.PL (talk) 07:39, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Well Bogomolov, if I took the tone of your post the wrong way then I apologize, but it seemed accusatory and negative to me, compared to comments by other editors. If you do feel my borders are incorrect or inaccurate, please copy the map to your computer, then re-draw the borders as you believe they should be. Use red borders to distinguish between the original (black) borders I created. I can then re-draw the borders on the original map and upload a corrected version. I'd be happy to list you as one of the people who helped me correct the map, as I have no problem giving credit where it's due. The last thing I want to do is give people wrong information! Respectfully, Thomas Lessman (talk) 15:21, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I've made corrections using Euratlas. And feel the difference. I spent 1½ hours in transforming Euroatlas map to Mercator (your) map projection and vectorizing boundaries. You see now - the most drastic were errors in NE Europe (Volga Bulgars especially - they were shifted out of Volga river), but rest of Europe has a lot of differences.

Bogomolov.PL (talk) 16:45, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

WOW Bogomolov, great job! How did you transform the Euratlas map to a Mercator map? I had to actually look at the Euratlas map and draw the borders on my map by hand, trying to get the location as close as possible. Do you have a better way of doing that? I honestly have no idea of how to transform from the type of map that Euratlas uses, to the type of map I'm using. It leaves me looking at some geographical features that don't seem right, so I have to use my best efforts. I can see that I'm not TOO far off on some borders, pretty accurate on others, but way off on borders for places like Russia (which is exactly what you had pointed out).

So how did you transform the Euratlas map to a Mercator map? Please be advised that I have noticed some minor errors in Euratlas maps (nothing TOO big), and for borders in places like Africa, they and I have minor disagreements. But still, they make a great source for information. Thank you Bogomolov, and when I get the answers to my questions, I'll happily correct all the maps where we see errors. Respectfully, Thomas Lessman (talk) 17:18, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I've made the transformation using MicroStation (Bentley) and Iras/C (Intergraph) module running over the MicroStation (all soft native US). This software is professional and very expensive, but I'm professional cartographer. The transformation I've made after identification of anchor points (control points) at both maps (your map was control map) and then transforming via polynoms. In theory is possible transformation (resampling) analythical (when projection formulas of every map are known), but Euroatlas' map projection is unknown, Mercator class projections are different also. So in practice has sense using control points technology. I'm sure there is a lot of cheap (free?) programs with possibility of this kind of transforming.

To my opinion one of the problems for you was hydrography: rivers are the single stable framework existing inside the continents, but river shapes are very not consequent. And it is 1 (one) lake at your map (you made Balkhash yourself?), but if you will add lakes (European lakes the largest are at North: Sveden, Russia, Finland, Estonia). And Baikal (with Yakuts!) and Great Mongolian lakes. And Chinese lakes. Kazakhstan has very notable lakes (I've visited several this summer - expedition). And very great are East African lakes, lake Chad... Bogomolov.PL (talk) 17:53, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Thank you very much for pointing out the differences, Bogomolov. I'm currently looking into ways I can reconcile the differences and correct the inaccuracies. I don't have access to good cartography software like you have, instead I've been using Adobe PhotoShop, and I'm currently looking into how I can distort the Euratlas maps to fit the base geography of the Mercator maps I'm using. It might take some time for me to figure it out, but I do appreciate your observations and your work in showing me how I was incorrect. If you get some more free time and feel like checking the other maps I've put up, please do so. I really appreciate your help on these maps! Respectfully, Thomas Lessman (talk) 23:21, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't know what transformation result is better for you. Two options are possible:

• Euratlas maps should be transformed to pixel size and geometry of your map, next you need shift (using 1 point only, topleft corner) this map to a right place in your software
• Euratlas maps should be transformed to pixel size and dimensions of your map, the empty space out of Euratlas edges would be filled with white color. This file is exactly on the place of your map.

What you prefer? Bogomolov.PL (talk) 13:18, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm not entirely sure yet, it depends on whichever one is easier to do in PhotoShop. Don't get me wrong, PhotoShop is a great program, but I think your cartography software is probably much better for mapping purposes. I'm looking over your recommendations to see if there's a way for me to do that in PhotoShop; I'm sure there probably is, but it's a pretty complicated program, and there's a lot I don't know about it yet. Thomas Lessman (talk) 18:56, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mali?

I recieved info late last week that my information on "Mali" in West Africa is incorrect. Bruce Gordon, author of the incredible "Regnal Chronologies" site (http://starnarcosis.net/obsidian/regindex.html) emailed me to let me know that Mali actually didn't exist as an empire yet (not until circa 1240 AD). It currently was part of the "Sosso Empire", which itself was a remnant of the older Empire of Ghana (I believe I wrote that correctly!).

I definitely appreciate Bruce's work and any information he sends my way. I've made a correction to the map in that regards, and will upload the corrected version soon. Thomas Lessman (talk) 01:19, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Explanation of Differences in East-Hem 1200ad

There are some differences in North African borders between my East-Hem_1200ad.jpg map and the map I used as reference, the Euratlas map of Europe in 1200 AD.

Primarily, my map shows the Almohades and Ayyubbids controling slightly more land than the Euratlas maps show. The reason is because the East-Hem maps show physical geography (like mountains and elevated lands) and the Euratlas maps don't. Thus, I extend their lands to the nearest logical extent based on physical geography. Also I've seen plenty of other maps showing the Almohades had more territory than is shown on the Euratlas maps, so I went with the other maps on those borders. Thomas Lessman 17:16, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

In North Africa the most important is oasis and caravan routs control. If you have noted on the source map oasises you can start with boundaries precising. Bogomolov.PL 17:23, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The borders of Scandinavian countries are incorrect

Hi!

The borders of Sweden, Norway and Denmark are a bit off in this map. The Finnish part of Sweden did not span across Karelia to the White Sea, and Norway is too short.

Anyway, this is a good and accurate map source for Scandinavian countries. Hope it helps! --ざくら木 16:20, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I wondered about those borders, but my source map from Euratlas.com didn't cover that area. So I had to make a guestimate. Thank you for pointing out that site; I remember seeing it a long time ago but forgot about it. And thank you for helping me correct those borders for 1200 AD; I'll look into the other maps as well. Thomas Lessman (talk) 20:25, 13 January 2008 (UTC)