Talk:Earth-Two
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[edit] Survey
Other than in origin, the Earth-Two Wonder Woman is very different from the Earth-One and Post-Crisis Wonder Woman. There are already separate articles for the Earth-Two versions of Superman (Kal-L) and Batman (Batman (Earth-Two)) due to the differences between the Earth-One and Earth-Two versions, therefore I vote this article should NOT be merged into the Earth-Two topic. Combining the history of the Earth-Two Wonder Woman into the main Wonder Woman article is very confusing.
Should the Wonder Woman (Earth-Two) article be merged with Earth-Two?
Support or Oppose - ~~~~
- Oppose - (see above) The article should be restored as a separate article. Tigrahawk 21:24, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
- Oppose - I agree, Batman of Earth-Two has a separate article. A gx7 12:41, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
- Comment - It appears the Wonder Woman (Earth-Two) article redirects to Earth-Two and has been since prior to the query above. If the question is "Should the article have been merged with Earth-Two", that should be presented to the larger community beyond this talk page.Mister Fax 23:30, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Roy Thomas' All Star Squadron screw-up
Aquaman should not be flatly listed as an Earth Two hero with an Earth One counterpart. The 1976 JLA/JSA crossover (Justice League of America #s 133-135) established that Earth Two's Atlantis was the one seen in Golden Age Wonder Woman stories, absolutely incompatible with that of the GA Aquaman's origin from More Fun #73. Since he appeared specifically as an Earth Two inhabitant very briefly in the last main storyline issue of Roy Thomas' All-Star Squadron and nowhere else, the existence of an Earth Two Aquaman is very easy to ignore (and where do you get the idea that his name is also Arthur Curry? I'm adding a citation tag for that). There are other problems with ASS, however. For starters, the Paul Kirk version of Manhunter had been established in his Detective Comics revival (#s 437-443, 1974-1975) as being an Earth One native (he met his fate in a team up with the modern Batman, with no room [physical or logical] in his backstory for continuum hopping); he should have been the E 1 counterpart of Quality's Dan Richards as the Earth Two version. Very recent issues of Green Lantern/Green Arrow had established that Hal Jordan was the nephew of Larry Jordan aka the Silver Age GL and GA Airwave, respectively. In his Answer Man column, Bob Rozakis had responded to a query about the then newly-created but World War II set Steel, the Indestructible Man by flatly stating his home was E-2, although the question itself implied that the character's own book hadn't dealt with the issue. There were many more, but given Aquaman's appearance being limited to little more than one panel, and being problematical as all...get-out, Roy's allegation of an E 2 A-man should be left to a note, much more deserving of one than the Spectre, who spent a good deal of time (specifically in the Bronze Age) on Earth One no matter how you explain it--see his own article. BTW, the GCD flatly says that the Jim Corrigan who appeared in the Black Lightning story in a post-DC Implosion issue of World's Finest was the Spectre one, not the African-American patrolman who had been seen in BL's own book and is described in this article, and I believe the 2003 Overstreet did, too. Ted Watson (talk) 22:24, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
- Short points:
- Atlantis - I seem to recall a comment, either in story or in a reference (Who's Who or a letter page) that Earth-Two's Atlantis wasn't consistent like Earth-Ones. Part of that is Justice League of America #135 (I think you were looking for this elsewhere) with the E-2 Wonder Woman comment that "It's only recently risen back to the surface." Nothing there though comments on if the entirety of Atlantis had risen or not.
- Aquaman - Unfortunately fan-site quibbling is of a lower priority than what officially came out of DC. If Thomas' story and those references attribute the Aquaman stories prior to Adventure Comics #260 (May 1959) to E-2, that stands as what DC did and how they viewed the stories. The same stands if Thomas "named" the E-2 Aquaman's secret ID. Also note, the character appeared in more than one panel by Thomas, showing up in both A-SS @59 and #60.
- The Kirk Manhunter - Again, a nagging memory of two things: 1) that the Kirby Manhunter (Shaw) was intended to tie to Kirk and 2) DC never committed one way or the other after A-SS started to Kirk having migrated or being duplicated physically an temporally (as opposed to Batman just be physically duplicated) on the two Earths.
- Airwave - Aside from Thomas' penchant to try an tie characters with same last names together, the Jordan family is a mess. If there are cites for two separate Larry Jordans as two separate Ariwaves, I'd say leave it as is.
- Commander Steel - Rozakis was acting as a spokesman for DC. If that was the company's stance, so be it.
- - J Greb (talk) 23:34, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
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- A few short replies:
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- Atlantis - How could I have been "looking for this elsewhere" when my citation was JLA #s 133-135? I simply couldn't remember which issue of that three part arc was the one, though I knew the GA Wonder Woman was listed by GCD in only the last. A footnote in the Atlantis sequence specifically referenced the GA WW stories.
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- Aquaman - "If" (which you use several times) doesn't do a thing for me. My point is that I don't believe a civilian name was specified for the GA Aquaman, I did say "little more than one panel" [emphasis added], and I doubt your claim about his appearing in #59 as well as 60. Doesn't jibe with my memory of Thomas just barely managing to squeeze in a cameo by the Sea King before the Crisis retconned away his existence, and Roy admitting as much in the letter column. Mentioned in #59, sure. But either way, Thomas created but did not significantly use a specifically Earth Two Aquaman just before that world ended. That brevity also works against any civilian name being specified for him in DC's comics.
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- The Kirk Manhunter: Steve Englehart tied Jack Kirby's 1st Issue Special Manhunter to Simon-Kirby/Goodwin-Simonson's Paul Kirk during his run on JLA, further evidence that the character was native to Earth 1. The rest you say here is garbled into incomprehensibility. Sorry, but it is, and I therefore can't respond to it.
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- Airwave: Thomas had nothing to do with establishing the AW-GL connection; in fact, my point is that he willfully ignored it. Larry's son, also named Hal J., became the new Airwave at the same time, and functioned as a superhero for quite awhile, even getting a few solo stories (in the back of Action, as I recall). And again, you put forth a worthless "if." No such cites that I am at all aware of, just the fact that Thomas's ASS depiction required it.
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- Commander Steel: "If that was the company's stance, so be it." My point. Thomas wanted to use all these heroes, and didn't give a damn about so much work by DC Comics staffers in then-recent years to the contrary, so Wiki should not be swearing by what appeared in his ASS and nowhere else. (In fact, Roy apparently received a fair amount of flack about his continuity cracking--that didn't go into the letter column--at the time, since he had the Quality Comics characters travel to Earth X, but they did so due to the Crisis weakening the boundaries between universes and it therefore couldn't have been part of truly pre-Crisis continuity to explain the 1973 JLA/JSA crossover depicting them there.) The idea of these characters having virtually identical E-2 & E-1 versions is absolutely nothing but arguing backward to make Thomas's "I'm-going-to-do-what-I-want-to-do-and-screw-what-everybody-else-has-already-done" series work, aka OR (BTW, I did enjoy it on its own terms, which is why I'm so familiar with the specifics). Ted Watson (talk) 20:49, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
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- Atlantis - the query stuck from you post here - Talk:List of DC Multiverse worlds#How many Earth S (Shazam)s are there?. The use was relevant here, but at the time I couldn't for the life of me remember where you'd been specific with the JLofA issues. My apologies if post came out poorly on that one.
- Aquaman - (Actually this goes a ways with most of the golden age DC characters that didn't get re-booted around 1960.) From where I sit, Thomas created the Earth-2 Aquaman in the pages of All-Star Squadron and, as DC writers did with other characters in the past, ascribed the golden age stories plus some to the character. For purposes of the list in this article, Thomas' story is enough to say there was an Aquaman on Earth-1 and one on Earth-2. As far as the name... it may be worth checking the two issues for a yes or no on that.
- The Kirk Manhunter - Thanks for the clarification on where Shaw and Kirk got linked. As for my muddle... (and I swear it seemed clear to me when I typed it but on re reading it... ugh)
The characters with counterparts on both E-1 and E-2 generally fall into two types:
1) Same code name, different secret ID, and different physical appearance; and
2) Same code name, same secret ID, and same physical appearance.
Both groups are also separated by a time lag, E-2's starting in the 1940s, E-1's in the 1960's or the present.
As far as I'm aware, no one at DC ever went into how, in story, Paul Kirk wound up on both E-1 and E-2. If the character some how migrated or if it was a case of physically identical counterparts that happened to start out at the same time. - The Jordans - As I said, the Jordan family is a mess, and it doesn't help that I misread your original point using them. Sorry about that.
- Following your upshot, I can see where your coming from. And to be honest, if there are references for it, Thomas catching flack from editorial for pushing his stories through may just be something to add to this article. More real world context as it were. - J Greb (talk) 23:42, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
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[edit] Questioned image use
The fair use of image:Adventure462.jpg in this article is questionable. Listed below is/are the reason(s) for this:
• Minimal use: As few non-free content uses as possible are to be included in each article and in Wikipedia as a whole. Full policy
• Significance: Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase, or its lack would significantly hinder, understanding the topic of the article. Full policy
• Use in a list article or section. Full guideline
Currently the image is being used as a spot illustration in the section Earth-Two#Major Earth-Two events. It does not significantly add to the bulleted list already there. At best it illustrates a point about a character associated with the Earth-Two setting, something the same image is doing in the article for that character. At worst it is decoration, and with the other image in the section, the start of a gallery.
If the above concern(s) can be addressed in light of the relevant policies and/or guidelines, the image use can be retained. If not, the image needs to be removed from the article.
Once this issue is resolved, please add "|fixed=y" to the template generating this message.
- J Greb (talk) 16:58, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
The fair use of image:PowerGirl1st.png in this article is questionable. Listed below is/are the reason(s) for this:
• Minimal use: As few non-free content uses as possible are to be included in each article and in Wikipedia as a whole. Full policy
• Significance: Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase, or its lack would significantly hinder, understanding the topic of the article. Full policy
• Use in a list article or section. Full guideline
Currently the image is being used as a spot illustration in the section Earth-Two#Major Earth-Two events. It does not significantly add to the bulleted list already there. At best it illustrates a point about a character associated with the Earth-Two setting, something the same image is doing in the article for that character. At worst it is decoration, and with the other image in the section, the start of a gallery.
If the above concern(s) can be addressed in light of the relevant policies and/or guidelines, the image use can be retained. If not, the image needs to be removed from the article.
Once this issue is resolved, please add "|fixed=y" to the template generating this message.
