Talk:Early life of Joseph Smith, Jr.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Featured article star Early life of Joseph Smith, Jr. is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do.
Main Page trophy This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on December 23, 2005.
Peer review This Philrelig article has been selected for Version 0.5 and subsequent release versions of Wikipedia. It has been rated FA-Class on the assessment scale (comments).
This article is part of Latter Day Saint movement WikiProject, an attempt to provide comprehensive and detailed information about the Latter Day Saint movement and Mormonism on Wikipedia. To participate in the project, edit this article, visit the List of articles about the Latter Day Saint movement, the project page, and/or join the discussion. For writing guidelines about contributing to the project, you may want to read Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Latter Day Saints) and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Latter Day Saints)
Featured article FA This article has been rated as FA-Class on the Project's quality scale.
(If you rated the article please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.)
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.
Biography Portal
Featured article FA This article has been rated as FA-Class on the project's quality scale. [FAQ]

Contents

[edit] Peer review

I'm listing this article for peer review. This article is particularly controversial, and needs a few good eyes to ensure that all notable points of view are represented. COGDEN 08:36, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Featured article candidate

Since time is growing short, I'm listing this article as a featured article candidate. COGDEN 04:52, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Parenthetical Citation

I would like to commend whoever was the first to put Parenthetical Citation in this article. I think this should be how all of our references are kept. Good Job. RENTASTRAWBERRY FOR LET? röck 04:15, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

ok. i see now.

[edit] Date of First Vision

I have twice reverted a specific date for the first vision from a anon using an AOL IP. Left them the following message.

Thanks for the recent edits on this article, but please keep in mind that Joseph Smith gave several accounts of the first vision during his lifetime, with relatively minor variations. One of these accounts was adopted as the official version by the largest LDS schism, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Since the LDS project group here tries to present a balanced view of all offshoots of Mormonism, as well as presenting opposing points of view (via Wikipedia's NPOV policy), articles about Mormonism have to be carefully written to incorporate as many viewpoints as possible. As there is some minor disagreement on the actual date of the first vision, a less than precise date has been selected for this article. We encourage people interested in LDS/Mormon issues to become involved in our project group. Please see: Wikipedia:WikiProject Latter Day Saint movement Hope to work with you soon. WBardwin 23:38, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Howe's work

Accounts given by Howe seem to be given a heavy amount of credence in the "Moroni and the Golden Plates" section. A cursory reading of the work strikes me as having very poor historiography. Perhaps more qualifiers could be added that his findings are highly questionable? The Jade Knight 10:04, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't think this article cites Howe himself. The only things cited in the work are the affidavits of people who knew Smith, which are interspersed in Howe's book. Some of the affidavits are considered unreliable, but the ones quoted, those of Isaac Hale and Willard Chase, are generally considered fairly reliable on matters of fact. COGDEN 16:01, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

So you "don't think" this article cites Howe himself. Look, this is supposed to be an encyclopedia which only provides information that's been checked and rechecked through as many credible sources as possible. It's not a forum for anti-mormon literature or anti-any religion for that matter. It also shouldn't be a forum for so-called "Academics" who might have a propensity towards revisionist history. E.D. Howe's book, Mormonism Unveiled, is not a credible source. It's also the origin of the famous lie that the Book of Mormon was based on a Solomon Spaulding manuscript. When the Spaulding's manuscript was found, some 30 years after Howe's book was published, it was easily discovered that everything thing Howe claimed was completely false and had now foundation in truth whatsoever. The fact that you would use quotes from a book that is known to have falsehoods and written by a man who's credibility is highly questionable is a complete shame for Wikipedia altogether. Article for this encyclopedia should be written with complete unbais and without prejudice. Strong alligations such as the ones in this articles should be thoroughly investigated before being published. If the encyclopedia writer can't or is unwilling to do that, they should chose other things to write about.--Evanpete 09:11, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Howe's research is truly quite poor. I really think, if it is to be included, a qualifier should be included as well stating something like "Howe makes the questionable claim that..." Anyone object if I do this myself? The Jade Knight 21:40, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
I have done so. The fact that such erroneous claims have been left in the article and presented as history worries me that many of the other sources may be as erroneous and that much of the article may be incorrect. The Jade Knight 00:49, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
You need to be careful here about throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Howe's book in general is a bit of anti-Mormon propaganda, but many of its affidavits are considered generally truthful and reliable. These affidavits are cited by both secular and apologetic scholars alike. There isn't anything cited in this article that hasn't been cited, for example, in BYU Studies. I'm reverting some of the "qualifiers" because they are simply incorrect. For example, the part about Moroni appearing as a toad was from an affidavit by Willard Chase, who says he heard the story from Joseph Smith, Sr. in about 1827, and therefore is not "unsupported". Willard Chase's version of the story, one of the earliest, is critically important to the history, and failure to cite it would leave a prominent hole, which both secularists and apologists would recognize. COGDEN 01:39, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
Even though this account comes through those sympathetic to the cause of Joseph Smith, Jr., doesn't is cast some of it in doubt that it was (at least) third-hand? Val42 02:23, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
I had looked at the citation in question, and it was nothing but Howe reporting Chase's word that he had been told this. A single uncollaborated story is hardly "supported", particularly in a field where so many lies had been generated. If we're going to keep these citations unqualified, we had better get citations from other more accurate sources to collaborate them. The Jade Knight 02:28, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Readability

I find this section difficult to read, is there some way we can get this to read a little more fluidly. I would prefer the FAC version, until it reads a little better Trödel•talk 03:24, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

That is the difficulty you face when you're using questionable or disputed sources; COgden (and likely others) would never let us omit the phrases in question, but context requires that we attach qualifiers to make it clear that, historically, Howe has little credibility on his own (or else we are engaging in spurious historiography and misleading our readers).
If you can think of a way to rephrase this section while retaining all of the current information (including qualifiers), please do so. However, I don't think readability should trump accuracy. The Jade Knight 04:22, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Reference

Building The Nation. Charles Carleton Coffin. ~1882. Chapter 32, "The Mormons", ten pages.

[edit] Removing section heading

Because the section about early experiences with visions, et. al. is only one sentence, I incorporated that sentence into the First Vision section and got moved the subsections up one. I think it reads a little better this way since the entire article is about his early life - no reason to keep repeat it in the section heading usig early experiences. Comments? Trödel•talk 23:48, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Post Featured Article AAR

The vandalism was not as bad as I expected, 128 edits, I think, and only a few where offensive pics or information was put in. This is much better than usual - I don't know what could explain that - other than the 23rd being a holiday for many people, and a lot of students gone for the Christmas Break. Personally, I am somewhat disappointed, but maybe I shouldn't be because of the overall high quality of the article, but I expected more improvements to the article, as has happened with some of the other featured articles when they are put on the main page.

Here is a before and after diff we should probably review the edits to see if any useful suggestions were deleted as vandalism. Does anyone want to volunteer - **Warning there will be explicit pictures in the history** - if no one can do it right away I will be happy to review them after Christmas.

Thanks to all those who helped watch this article today - especially the admins who quickly reverted nonsense and explicit pics - it is amazing how fast they catch stuff - I was sitting her clicking refresh but by the time I could revert - it was already done. Great job everyone! Trödel•talk 00:20, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

I've actually gone post-by-post (as far as I am aware, at least), and reviewed 90% of edits. I think this is what we're stuck with. The Jade Knight 00:27, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
First of all, I'd like to congratulate the people who got this article up to Feature Article status. Second, I'd like to thank whomever got it featured on the 200th anniversary of his birth. Third, I'd like to thank all of the editors who monitored the feature status. All of this was people besides me. While I was watching today, I found one edit that needed revering but hadn't yet been revereted. By the time I got it reverted, someone else had already done so. Thanks to everyone. Val42 01:27, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
I wasn't able to get to the computer, and it slipped my mind anyway - sorry I couldn't help at all. --Trevdna 02:54, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Category - Articles lacking sources?????

On my browser, this article shows that, under categories, it is under "articles lacking sources". I go to change this (it's obviously wrong), and I cannot find it anywhere? Is this only happening to me, or does anyone else see it? Why would it be there in the firsdt place??? --Trevdna 23:26, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

I notice the same. The Jade Knight 23:33, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
I guess this has been taken care of by now, but I assume someone had put a {{fact}} tag somewhere, which used to add an article to that category. (Now it adds it to Category:Articles with unsourced statements.) User:Angr 15:25, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Stable versions

Template:Nomstable -- Trevdna 23:39, 23 January 2006 (UTC) Template:Certstabletrue

The nomination is complete. It is now a Stable Review Version on the Early life of Joseph Smith, Jr./Stable sub page. -- Zondor 11:21, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Where was the voting? The Jade Knight 05:46, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
I rushed it. -- Zondor 06:42, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Why? The Jade Knight 07:58, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

I am nominating this article for a "stable version". It has been unedited for nearly a month, seems completely accurate, and I feel that it is as good as it is going to get. The stable versions concept is realitively new, and so this is a very new thing, but I don't think that there's a better article to try this out on. Please support.

Also, if there are any difficulties, roll with it - this is still pretty new.--Trevdna 23:39, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

What's the purpose of having a "stable version"? The Jade Knight 03:49, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
In short, it means its ready to be printed to millions and millions of people to read. -- Zondor 07:15, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
I don't really think it is, personally. I think it still needs a lot of work—I think the sources should be checked and analysed historiographically before we consider calling this article stable. But that's a lot of work which requires access to the sources. I've done it for a few, but there are many, many more. The Jade Knight 07:55, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, that's not what I really meant. Actually, what you describe is a perfect candidate for a "preprint" version prior to the stable version. It's complete but just needs to be verified. -- Zondor 13:05, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Shouldn't be verification be part of the nomination procedure? Markus Schmaus 17:49, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps, the nomination procedure can include "alpha testing" (verification) as a hurdle to have it good enough. However, after this nomination it has to undergo "beta testing" (verification) for a Stable Release Version. -- Zondor 01:26, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Should the Stable Review Version (Early life of Joseph Smith, Jr./Stable) be the default view? This can be done by putting the wiki version on the /Wiki sub page and redirecting the main article page to the stable review version page. The stable page would also need to link to the wiki version. -- Zondor 11:21, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Definitely not. I doubt the article is accurate, and I think it's important that it remain open to corrections, particularly if people can review the sources and ensure that they are accurate and supported. As it is, the Howe references remain in the article when they are completely unsupported. The Jade Knight 05:46, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
It is open to corrections. Hence it was called Stable Review Version. -- Zondor 06:42, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Blockquote from the surgery

I removed the VERY long blockquote from the part on his surgery, because it did little for the article, was tedious, and can be accessed from the references. If you want to add it back in, please at least provide a rationale for it on this talk page. --Trevdna 06:26, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

I think it can be there, but it should be a footnote. It is important not to bog down the narrative flow. Footnotes are beautiful! I was going to get around to it. Tom Haws 17:41, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

I moved to footnote. But I don't know how to do paragraphs in footnotes, so it is ugly. Can anybody help me? Tom Haws 17:55, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Trodel, for formatting. Tom Haws 19:21, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New footnote system

I converted the footnotes to the new <ref name="note name>Information for note</ref> system. I think it is more useful since it puts the note right next to the information being notated. Trödel 03:13, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Separate articles on particularly controversial events

I was thinking of starting an article about the 1826 "trial," as this event is particularly controversial in the JS's history. I'd imagine that other events would be addressed similarly in the future. Sound like a good idea? uriah923(talk) 16:54, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

yes Trödel 11:39, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
I look forward to reading that article. ErinHowarth 08:07, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV & the Moroni and the Golden Plates section

User:Reswobslc put an NPOV tag on the above noted section. I went back and skimmed the article and found there are a number of clarifiers, such as claimed or purportedly, used to ensure that readers will understand that the article is not viewed as fact, but as reported by a plethora of references regarding the events recorded.

The section in question has no less than five instances of use of the word claimed. I find it difficutl that a reader would not understand that WIKI is not taking a position as to veracity of the subject matter. I also think that subjects of faith necessarily are presented from the position of topic. Exactly how can the section/article be written with any more qualifiers? If the editor would please offer some specific points let's see if we can't met their standards. Of course, I would also invite User:Reswobslc to pursue the same standard on every other topic of faith on WIKI. Storm Rider (talk) 22:34, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I would concur -- we have plenty of "weasel" words in this section and in other sections of the article as well. Faith based articles have this inherent difficulty. Today, no one -- believer or not -- can factually prove the plates did or did not exist. It is all opinion. WBardwin 22:42, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Here is an example of the NPOV violations I am talking about (bolded by me):
“ However, Smith initially kept the plates out of sight, even to his family. At first, he reportedly kept the plates in a chest under the hearth in his parents' home (Smith 1853). Fearing they might be discovered, however, Smith hid the chest under the floor boards of his parents' old log home nearby (Tiffany 1859). Later, he took the plates out of the chest, left the empty chest under the floor boards, and hid the plates in a barrel of flax, not long before the location of the empty box was discovered and the place ransacked by Smith's former treasure-seeking associates, who had enlisted one of the men's sisters to find that location by looking in her seer stone (Smith 1853, pp. 107–109). ”
The narrative, by making statements of what Joseph did with the plates, is an implicit assertion of their existence. They are blatant NPOV violations until, at the very least, it's changed to say that he said he did things with the plates, rather than simply just did them. The assertion that it is a "faith based" article does not permit it to contain factual assertions of faith-based concepts. WP:NPOV is an "absolute and non-negotiable" policy. Reswobslc 22:49, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
As an editor on WIKI when making a claim violation of NPOV, you have taken the step of stating what you think is wrong with the article. Thank you. It now allows us to see you thought process. The next step in moving forward, do you have a specfic recommendation on how to improve the section, i.e. how do you think it should be written? It would be important to take the section in context of the entire article. Although I feel I have already provided ample evidence of qualifiers, I am open to suggestions to improve the article. Storm Rider (talk) 22:57, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I can't say I do, other than to remove the NPOV problems. I came to the article with an interest in browsing it, no so much an interest in editing in it, and simply came across an instance of "aha, this is a concrete problem". Simply fixing the entire section to always refer to Joseph Smith's account of what he did, rather than directly to his "Plates" is more than plenty satisfactory to erase my objections to it. Reswobslc 23:01, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I think Reswobslc's concerns are valid, and I attempted to address them. It looks like a few POV-on-their-face statements had slipped through the cracks. COGDEN 23:46, 31 July 2006 (UTC).

COGDEN, my question now would be with so many "claims" and "reportedly", have you changed the tone so that it now reads as if, "Well, if you believe this I have some beach front property to sell in Arizona to sell"? When you write an article with near constant statements of qualification you necessarily take a POV stand.
I prefer to take a look at other articles and use them as a standard. Check out the Jesus article and you will find a good example of a neutral article, but still allows for recounting of "history" from referenced sources. I think we have bent too far backwards. Thoughts? Storm Rider (talk) 23:54, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Storm Rider. "As the name suggests, the neutral point of view is a point of view, not the absence or elimination of viewpoints. It is a point of view that is neutral - that is neither sympathetic nor in opposition to its subject."WP:NPOV The current presentation presents a view in opposition to the subject. --Trödel 02:47, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
The practice of using "claimed," "stated," "reportedly," etc., is no different than that commonly used in mainstream journalism. Qualifying every unprovable or disputed thing as "what somebody says" is perfectly natural and neutral, and I think the audience understands that. It's not opposition to say somebody "claimed" to do something. You simply can't say that something "happened" consistently with NPOV policy, if that thing is disputed. COGDEN 07:04, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, you ARE talking about a guy who said he was talking to angels in his bedroom and claimed to translate a book many people believe is a hoax. People are entitled to believe that. That's what NPOV is all about - stating the facts and letting the reader decide if he buys it. That Jesus lived as a person is relatively undisputed. That Joseph Smith saw an angel and dug golden plates out of the ground, is something most people simply don't believe. It's a bite of religious dogma and must be stated as such.
However, I might suggest that it is possible to say the same thing without using the words "claims" and "reportedly". Those are weasel words to begin with. How about simply in place of "Joseph Smith did X", just "Joseph Smith said he did X". The word "claims" carries a connotation of disbelief (e.g. "the defendant claims he is innocent") which isn't necessary to get into neutral POV territory.Reswobslc 02:34, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
These are only weasel words when they don't have citations to back them up. Every "reportedly" or "claims" in this article, as far as I know, has a citation that makes it clear who is "claiming" or "reporting." The alternative would be to say something like "Joseph Knight wrote .... Willard Chase wrote .... Lucy Mack Smith wrote ...., etc.," which can makes for choppy and inelegant writing. COGDEN 07:04, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
You have said a mouthful. I would agree that most people do not deny that Jesus lived, but whether Jesus was the Son of God would garner a significant dispute worldwide. Even within Christianity there is not unanimity regarding this very issue. To start questioning miracles we do not have to go far: Jesus actually saw Moses and Elijah on the Mt. of transfiguration? He turned water into wine and then raised the dead? What about Gabriel appearing to Muhammad? Is that so outlandish? We tend to choke on gnats and swallow camels. You have to be careful when you draw standards; what is good for the goose will be good for the gander. Before you know it your own sacred cow gets gored.
As I have already stated there were already a number of qualifiers in the article that easily signified to a reader this is history according to Joseph Smith. However, it also gives opposing information and was certainly not one-sided.
When you come in a slap an NPOV tag on a article and then state, "Hey, I am not going to edit, just state what is a problem", it is similar to negotiating with one person. We end up with corrections like COGDEN who bends over too far to pacify a standard that no one knows. If you are going to expend the effort to tag an article, please expend the effort to assist in correcting the article.
In addition, you bet those are weasel words, but they are weasel words we gladly accepted because of the large number of fly-by-night editors, most of them ANONs, who come by after they have heard their preacher talk about those evil Mormons and their "non-Christian" doctrine. They are going to make certain the whole world understands the "truth" about Mormons. The problem is the vast majority don't have a clue about the history of Joseph Smith or the church. Most only have a passing understanding of Christian history or the scriptures. Most of us have spent years in study of religion and we end up answering the same problems/questions over, and over, and over again. I am getting on one of my many soap boxes. It is tiresome. I despise arguing about religion and I really dislike people with axes that need grinding.
I will reread the article tomorrow and I will be deleting a majority of the weasel words. I will retain qualifiers such as the ones you suggested above, but I want a good, readable article without a constant reminder this is a history according to Joseph Smith. How many times do we have to state that? As I edit numerous other articles centered on religious topics, this is seldom a problem and I am frustrated it is a problem here. Storm Rider (talk) 06:36, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
I would think twice about this, Storm Rider. This article has been remarkably stable for over a half-year, in part, I think, because there are very few statements that, taken alone, are not verifiably true and nobody can reasonably argue about them. You can easily argue with the idea that Smith kept the plates in a wooden box, but you can't argue with the statement "Smith claimed he kept the plates in a wooden box." Editors often see sentences they don't agree with and change them. We need to give them something they can't change. COGDEN 07:04, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
You're welcome to edit the article to your heart's content. Questioning my motives for slapping NPOV on the article does not create an exception to the NPOV policy. Have a look at the Jesus article like you suggested I do. You won't read that Jesus was born of a virgin, but rather, that Christians believe it happened that way. You won't read that Jesus turned water into wine, but rather that the Gospels state that he did so. As for Gabriel visiting Muhammad, you'll read how Muslims believe that happened in the year 610 (in the Muhammad article, of course). The Jesus article is awash with phrases like "Christians believe" and "According to Luke" and "the Gospel of John records" as it is necessary to comply with the NPOV policy. Take your own advice and have a look at the article. You will find dozens of ways to word things NPOV without making them sound unnecessarily like a blatant con. Further, as to whether Jesus was the son of God is barely consistent throughout Mormon history. The original 1830 Book of Mormon contained no references to Jesus being the son of God - the numerous such references in the BOM were all added in later. Reswobslc 18:09, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Come on, this is getting silly. The question is "HOW MANY TIMES DO WE HAVE TO SAY "CLAIMS OR REPORTEDLY, OR EVEN PURPORTEDLY?" My intent was not to question your motives, but as I said it was a bit of a rant. Since I edit the Jesus articel and have worked on that article for many months I am pretty familiar with what it says and what it does not say. We already have all of the qualifiers in the article and you want more. My staement is that putting a qualifier in every time anyone says anything is POV and violates NPOV. If you are stating that we can put one qualifier at the top, then we have it. Look in the first paragraph:

The early life of Joseph Smith, Jr. covers the period from his birth on December 23, 1805, to the end of 1827, when Latter Day Saints believe Smith located a set of Golden Plates engraved with ancient Christian scriptures, buried in a hill near his home in Manchester, New York.

The second paragraph states:

Smith's followers revere him as a latter-day prophet.

This is followed by the 3rd paragraph:

This early period of Smith's life is significant within Mormonism because it represents the time when Smith first claimed to act as a prophet, to have had a theophany (called by his followers the First Vision), and to have obtained the Golden Plates, purportedly the source material for the Book of Mormon, a Latter Day Saint sacred text. During this period, Smith was influenced by numerous religious and cultural trends in early United States history.

Let's look at the section in question. The first sentence reads:

While Smith was working as a treasure seeker, he was also frequently occupied with another more religious matter: acquiring a set of Golden Plates he claimed were deposited, along with other artifacts, in a prominent hill near his home.

This is then followed by a referenced quote. Then followed by a statement of belief:

and observers reported that Smith eventually used the Urim and Thummim and his seer stone interchangeably. (Stevenson 1882, p. 86).

This goes on ad nauseam. The section now reads as if any fool could possibly believe this then they need to get their head examined. I hope to see your many tags on every article of religion. If you are going to start setting the standards for WIKI, then enforce them across the board and not just where you have an obvious POV. Storm Rider (talk) 19:07, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

If you do not understand the NPOV policy, no need to rant to me - read WP:NPOV. "Qualifiers", as you put it, are not necessary - the word "qualifier" doesn't appear even once in WP:NPOV. Neither do the words "claims", "purportedly", or "reportedly" as in your previous capitalized (screaming?) statement. NPOV isn't about including disclaimer words or about ensuring that a reader knows that something is in dispute. It is about sticking to undisputed facts. Many dispute Joseph Smith was a prophet, but whether or not he was, no one disputes that he said he was a prophet. The latter is a fact and is perfectly fine to include. What is wrong with sticking to facts? NPOV (and avoiding bias) isn't a Wikipedia-only thing - it's something we're taught in high school English and writing courses. Journalists and news anchors have the same burden, it's not a new concept, and not one you're likely to get any sort of exception to by arguing about it. Reswobslc 20:19, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

You have said nothing with which I disagree. I believe the article was sticking to the facts, it was written well within NPOV standards, and avoided bias. I also see that you have answered none of my questions. I can also see that we are not communicating very well. I am dropping the converstation; there is no benefit to WIKI, this article, or anyone else in contining. Cheers. Storm Rider (talk) 23:36, 1 August 2006 (UTC)