Talk:Early Norwegian black metal scene

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[edit] Black Metal Circle

I've added information on the Black Metal Circle from two named references. I've tried to keep it NPOV by not listing media claims of satanism or other theories for why the murders and arsons were committed. anon.

There was no such thing as the Black Metal Inncer Circle, however. It never existed outside of Euronymou's head. All kinds of black metallers have been interviewed denying having any kind of satanist affiliations, and Vikernes has in fact consistently denied that the Black Metal circle ever existed. Wiht your permission, I will try and do some re-writing on this whilst still considering your original article. I will try and add a sectyion about the debate of whether or not it existed. --Nargos 04:49, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes I do not believe it existed in a "physical" form. There's alot of stuff in this article that makes it seem like it's all facts, but perhaps the article should mention that it is only thought to have existed.

Fantoft church wasn't "burned by arsonists", it was burned by Christian "Varg" Vikernes. I'll change it to say burned by Varg Vikernes. It's a well-known fact. [2.12.2006]

Please do not state something is a well-known fact if in fact it's not. Christian Vikernes was acquited for burning Fantoft stafe church due to lack of evidence. He was however found guilty of four arsons namely Skjold, Åsane, Storetveit churches and Holmenkollen chapel.Egishnugal 22:16, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

As to the "Black Metal Inner Circle" not existing, that's not true. Aarseth specifically did have this group, and it was an existant fellowship. You musn't rely on Vikerenes, he's a well known liar. But he has admitted to the Fantoft burning and the other churches indirectly. While the Norwegian court may find evidence lacking, there's no doubt he's twisting the facts to suit his ideological needs. [2.12.2006]

Please see WP:NPOV and WP:BOLD. Ley Shade 12:44, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Have removed the nonsense about them being 'arguably a terrorsit group' its POV PreachanStoirm 01:58, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm adding some references to potential terrorism..... I'll try to keep it as NPOV as possible. Although they only hurt a few people, I think it's safe to regard Black Circle as a minor terrorist group because of the violent basis of their activities (because of Euro and Varg, mainly), especially when compared to a welsh independence group who arsoned properties owned by non-welsh people, and although they wern't known to have hurt anyone, they were officially recognised as a terrorist group. - Dark Prime


Faust and Samoth were convicted based on evidence uncovered (I believe in the possession of Varg) during the Euronymous murder investigation... this is almost definitely fully researchable and is supported by Varg's claims on Burzum.org (under A Burzum Story: Euronymous). I'm aware this isn't proof but I DO find it unlikely that not only would Mayhem and Emperor start independantly burning down churches of historical significance, but that Varg would then independantly keep a list of these crimes. I believe Varg also references Euronymous's "friends" hanging out in the basement of his record store. I don't have anything to back up Dead's involvement though. 25 feb 07

All these rumors really don't help anything, it would be handy if somebody could read norwegian and simply translate the original court rulings which are in public domain..Egishnugal 22:16, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sources and citing

Apparently, this is a controversial subject. Recently, the page discussing Dead was edited, and the references to the Black Metal Inner Circle removed. See the talk page of Dead. We seem to have a situation, where people go around adding mentions of the Inner Circle in the articles that discuss prominent Norwegian black metal figures - and other people remove these references.

This seems to result from the fact that some regard the existence of an Inner Circle as a fact, while others see the whole Inner Circle as a baseless rumor. I think that we should try to reach a consensus in this article and then, rely on it to judge if and how the Inner Circle should be mentioned in other articles.

At the moment, this article (Black Metal Inner Circle) seems to be lacking in references. Two books are mentioned, but unfortunately, simply under references without any additional details. I'd like to see more detailed references (ie. page 362 of the book blah blah) when it comes to specific claims like "Notable members of the inner circle included Mayhem vocalist Per Yngve Ohlin (Dead), Varg Vikernes of Burzum, as well as Bård Faust Eithun and Samoth from Emperor.". Without very detailed refencing, it becomes unclear which parts of the article are actually supported by facts - and which parts have been added later by someone who "heard it from somewhere". Tritec 20:41, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

I have never heard of a formal black metal inner circle. It's not in Satan rir Media, Lords of Chaos (book) or on Vikernes' homepage. If this is taken from 'Lucifer Rising', it need to be clarified which statements are taken from that book. Zara1709 16:08, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Move to: Early Norwegian Black Metal scene

That with the "Black Metal Inner Circle" is just to dubious. I am not going to have any modern occult mythology leak in here, if I can help it. (There is already enough of that on Nazi occultism.) But I think this article should be kept, clarified and linked properly to the relating articles. This way editors would not have to summarize the events in every article on a Norwegian Black metal musician, and we could also merge Helvete in here. The only thing I don't know is whether Black Metal should be capitalized in the name of the new article. Zara1709 03:54, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

As far as the last part goes, genres aren't capitalized according to the MOS. Dekimasuよ! 12:12, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, the proposal didn't generate a whole lot of interest either way. That said, the page title Early Norwegian black metal scene is unoccupied currently, so I'd say that you're free to move the page yourself if you want; the majority of page moves on Wikipedia are uncontroversial and done without administrator intervention. This appears to be the case here. — TKD::Talk 01:56, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I was interested, but I was just unsure about what to say. I suppose this is the most appropriate way to settle down any disputes of existence. I should note that Euronymous did say in a swedish radio interview that the Black Circle existed, so it may have at least been an informal fellowship, though one committed to black metal terrorism. - Dark Prime

[edit] Please, some citations

The reason why I thought that the move of this article could be controversial is that if effectifly shifted the burden of proof towards those who are of the opinion that there was a Black Metal Inner Circle. This has to be debated in the article, but we need some references. So if you have a (comparitivly) reliable source that most of the members sought to expel and supplant Christianity with alternative ideologies, please add it back in. I am sorry for reverting that late, but I had some things to do in RL. Zara1709 10:46, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge from Helvete

I thought that the merge from Helvete should be unvontroversial. If that article would ever get expanded, I would overlap completly with this article. Zara1709 11:52, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

Obvious to me, this article skews in favor of the black metal scene by use of language, and as a result there are few references. --80.217.188.76 16:38, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I you want, you can try to find reliable sources on this topic in English. The best there is is Satan rir media. Lords of Chaos (book) is half a fascist tract and Luzifer Rising seems to be sensationalist conspiracy theory literature.
Unless someone who speaks Norsk goes to the Oslo and Bergen police, the Oslo court and the Norwegien newspaper and digs through the archives, it will prove impossible to to write a good article on this. Zara1709 11:46, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
You can always put it up for AfD.P4k 16:29, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Now, I have written that it will be impossible to write a good article. Even with all the difficulties with the sources, it should still be possible to write an average article. I would go ahead and write a few more things on Lords of Chaos, but when I tried disentangling the fascist propaganda in that book from the facts the last time, I got an edit war. Otherwise, Satan rir media is a reliable source. On occasion I will watch it another time and see if there is anything more in there, that can be added. If I would have wanted to propose this article for deleletion, I would have done that months ago. Zara1709 19:22, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Both Lords of Chaos and Lucifer Rising do however constitute reliable sources and if cited properly can be used to improve this article. Both for instance include lengthy direct quotes from the various people involved, and as such author bias is slightly mitigated. For what it's worth, I do not see Lords Of Chaos as 'fascist propaganda' either, but that's neither here nor there. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 16:39, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

This is about tag cleanup. As all of the tags are more than a year old, there is no current discussion relating to them, and there is a great deal of editing done since the tags were placed, or in some cases it's clear there is a consensus, they will be removed. This is not a judgement of content. If there is cause to re-tag, then that of course may be done, with the necessary posting of a discussion as to why, and what improvements could be made. Better yet, edit the article yourself with the improvements in place. This is only an effort to clean out old tags, and permit them to be updated with current issues if warranted.Jjdon (talk) 22:42, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] BM Inner Circle and Lords of Chaos

First off, the so-called "Black Metal Inner Circle" did not ever exist. It was purely a media invention, which pretty much everyone in the bm scene there has said. Second, and most importantly: Lords of Chaos does not constitute a reliable source. It has inaccuracies all throughout (take a look at the Lords of Chaos page) and it is a piece of propaganda for white supremacy. Almost everyone in the bm scene has denided this book. Moynihan blatantly lies about crap and makes up quotes from different musicians. Blizzard Beast $ODIN$ 18:01, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Woah. If you are going to say Moynihan makes up quotes, you had better have a bloody good source. Otherwise that is libellous. If 'almost everyone' in the scene has, um, denided this book, point out where. As almost a side note, having read the book several times, which bits were you suggesting were white supremacist propaganda? A page number and quote'd be handy. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 18:22, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
If you want: There was another Norwegian right-wing activist with the name Tom Kimmo Eiternets who got into prison for robbery and assault. (He and Vikernes were both defended by the same lawyer no:John Christian Elden.) About him you can read in Lords of Chaos (1998), p. 318: "This Vision of the enemy might predispose him to take his actions one step further from harassing immigrants to Baader Meinhof Style urban guerilla warfare directed at leading power figures." AT LEAST you'd have to say that such a statement displays a lack of distance. Also: There is NO EVIDENCE that somewhere in the Norwegian Black Metal or Right Wing scene some people have the organisational structure or even the intention to pull of a "Baader Meinhof Style urban guerilla warfare". Moynihan is pushing this interpretation into the topic. There are some more quotes like this, you have to read the last three chapters carefully. Although it is altogether possible that the various editions differ here. Zara1709 (talk) 05:16, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
It looks like we have the same edition, but I'm still not prepared to make the leap from interviewing or reporting on people with racist or far right viewpoints, to saying Moynihan supports these people. My knowledge of the wider far right political situation in Norway is non-existent, so I couldn't comment on the organisational abilities of far right groups. I simply question extreme statements like "Lords of Chaos is white supremacist propaganda". The quote above for instance... in what way does it suggest Moynihan supports such activities? From the context it does not. As for pushing his interpretation onto things, well, yes, it is journalism not a Wikipedia article with NPOV etc, but to call it propaganda you'd have to find some quotes where Moynihan explicitly supports a white supremacist stance. I don't recall any. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 13:06, 4 March 2008 (UTC)