Talk:Earl of Arundel

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.	Biography Portal
Start	This article has been rated as Start-Class on the project's quality scale. [FAQ]
	This article is supported by WikiProject Peerage.

Loren, what's your source for "d'Albini" on the first Earls? Both Complete Peerage and Handbook of British Chronology give "d'Aubigny". john 06:40, 4 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Is there a place in England that the title is derived from? RickK 06:47, 4 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Arundel Castle is in Sussex. The early earls were frequently called Earl of Sussex or Earl of Chichester (I think) as well as Earl of Arundel. john 06:55, 4 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I may be mixed up, and I'm not sure of the specific terminology to use to ask the question, but wasn't Charles Howard of Effingham (the guy in charge of defending against the Spanish Armada) lord of Arundel Castle? How does he fit in? Adam Bishop 07:01, 4 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Well, the Earls of Arundel were attainted between 1589 (I think) and 1603. So perhaps he was given Arundel Castle at that time. john 07:18, 4 Jan 2004 (UTC)

My source for the spelling of the toponymic is the Dictionary of National Biography. (And by the way it looks like the entries for the family were written by J.H. Round.) However fashions for spelling some of the medieval family names have changed over the past century; someone needs to do a survey of more recent books and see if there is any consensus.

As is explained in the Earl article, medieval earls were interchangeably referred to by their county, the county seat, and possibly some other principal place in the county. Thus Arundel=Sussex=Chicester, Shropshire=Shrewsbury, Hampshire=Winchester, etc.

In the year of the Armada (1588) Philip Howard, Earl of Arundel was imprisoned in the Tower of London, though he wasn't attainted til the next year, and his son and heir was 3 years old. I would presume this is why Arundel Castle was in the hands of someone else (e.g. his cousin). Loren Rosen 16:37, 4 Jan 2004 (UTC)

According to Complete Peerage "d'Albini" is an odd Latinization, or something, of the actual name of the family, which was "d'Aubigny". Here's the full citation (from page 233 of Volume I of the 1910 edition):

1. William d'Aubigny[1] de Albiniaco[2], or in the Anglo-Latin of Dugdale and other writers, de Albini, etc etc

[1] Aubigny is in the arrondisement of Coutances, department of La Manche. It was confiscated in 1204 by Philip Augustus, who made known by his charter that "terra comitis de Harundel" (and that of many others) was "de dominico nostro"...

[2] Of course, no one ever bore such a name as de Albini; the modern surname Daubeney indicated what the name of these Earls was.

I think this is reason enough to change it back to "d'Aubigny." john 06:34, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I'm fine with that; I found other sources who also commented that Dugdale had done an idiosyncratic anglization of the medieval Latin. I also found that some historians are using de Albini for the other family from Aubigny (perhaps to help tell them apart) but I don't propose changing our usage yet. I am, however, going to change the references to d'Arundel for two of the Fitzalan earls -- I have no idea where that came from. Loren Rosen 05:37, 15 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Fitzalan comes from ALAIN the first of the line who was a descendant of James - Jesus's brother and that line was in Brittany =a Breton line BUT also over time this line purported to marry into the also line from descendants of Jesus himself and so the line is descended from both brothers -sons of Joseph & Mary. (genealogy pro- Big Willy)

[edit] Numbering of earls

The numbers should be re-ordered. John FitzAlan (born 1223) was the 1st Earl of Arundel of a new creation, and the FitzAlan earls must be numbered starting here. ScottyFLL 02:06, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

That would be the normal practice, but heaven knows what was the rule in 1264! —Tamfang 03:47, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

It looks like this re-numbering was done but the titles of the articles for the FitzAlan earls were never changed. Loren Rosen 06:41, 4 September 2007 (UTC)