Talk:Ear training

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Contents

[edit] Removal of examples

I removed this:

[1] The first interval in Auld Lang Syne is actually from the V to the I, however, the fourth and fifth intervals are perfect ratios, so the example given *is* identical to a I to IV interval.
[2] The first interval in My Bonny Lies Over The Ocean is from the V up to the iii. Note that only in Equal temperament (not in Just intonation) is this interval equal to a Major sixth. The most popular example of a true I to VI interval is first two notes in the chorus of "Buddy Holly" by the rock band Weezer.

IMHO it is beside the point. -- Merphant 05:24, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)


[edit] Midi files

Question: if I created MIDI files or very small MP3 files illustrating each of these intervals, would it be possible to upload these to wikipedia? Are there any other pages that have musical examples that I could use as a guide? I see a lot of images, but not usually sound files. -- dmazzoni

I think you can just upload them like you upload images. Nationalparks 08:41, 14 February 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Star Wars

I changed "Star Wars" to "Twinkle Twinkle". See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Music_theory#Star_Wars —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 152.163.100.197 (talk • contribs) .

Yes, I agree that the pickup note can make it confusing, since the pickup to the second note is a fourth while the next interval is indeed a fifth. Nationalparks 08:41, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Somewhere Over the Rainbow

Can't have Somewhere Over the Rainbow as major seventh and octave. I think it's major seventh. Then we need something for octave. Nationalparks 08:50, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

No, the beginning of "Somewhere Over the Rainbow" is certainly an octave. It will be hard to think of a song that starts with a M7 but I'm sure it's possible. Suggestions: The second part of the 'Superman' theme, The Cole Porter song "I Love You" (it's a descending M7), the a part of On the Street Where You Live that goes "all at ONCE AM i" (the M7 is between 'once' and am'), and the chorus of "Alone in the Universe" from Seussical ("'CAUSE I have wings")
DA723
Why can't we use an example more than once? Hyacinth 09:52, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
How about There's a Place for Us? Yeah, SotR is an octave. Nationalparks 22:18, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't bother me to use an example more than once, what bothers me is that we can't find a song that is a major seventh without having to use the first and third notes. People who are not musically inclined may not be able to hear in their head the interval between the first and third notes of a song, it would be much better if we could find a solid example where the first and second notes form a major seventh.

And "Theres a Place for Us" (aka 'Somewhere') is a minor seventh, not a major seventh.

DA723 02:20, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

See below, "Fantasy Island" theme begins w/ a true M7th. The old Star Trek theme begins with a m7th. Neither works very well for a typical 18-year-old college freshman however.

[edit] Overall Objection

I'm on a roll here...

I need to log a personal objection to the use of melodies as mnemonic devices in an encyclopedic article involving ear-training. First of all, these mnemonic devices are more of a guide to how to train one's ear, rather than encyclopedic information, and would thus go better in a WikiHow than a Wikipedia article.

Second, time and again, music theory classes have shown that using tunes to identify intervals is an ineffective method that does not lead to a true strengthening of the ear's ability. If I have a series of notes moving up and down in either minor seconds or major seconds and want to figure out exactly what the notes are, it would be impossible for me to do so by assigning "Happy Birthday" or "Jaws" to each group of two notes. It would be futile and it would ruin the enjoyment of the music. Better to have learned the intervals by playing them on one's own instrument and singing them, so that you don't always have to refer back to a song every time you think you hear a certain interval.

This second objection is definitely more of a personal preference, but I think the first objection merits eliminating all these examples in the article. I want to replace them with just a couple of sentences mentioning the fact that people often use songs as mnemonic devices, and give perhaps one example.

Anyone reading this, let me know what you think. -Aerlinndan 12:50, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I'd say that the decision to eliminate the melodic intervals would depend on whether or not the same information is featured elsewhere in articles about the intervals. I mean, if someone who's done no ear training comes to Wikipedia wanting to know what a major sixth is, how are you going to tell them except with examples such as these? This may not be the most appropriate article to feature these examples, but if you're going to delete them here please check out where they should be and put them there. aruffo 15:10, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

This is pretty obscure, but the theme from the old TV show Fantasy Island begins with a M7th. It helps if you also imagine Herve Villechaize exclaiming "de plane! de plane!"

I have taught music theory and ear training at the college level for many years, and using songs as mnemonics is not only highly effective, it is absolutely essential for certain students. It is a crucial bridge between something concrete which they know (the beginnings of certain songs) and something rather abstract which they do not (intervals in isolation). Of course theory students should also sing intervals and play them at the piano (from a variety of starting pitches), but one must have a variety of methods at one's disposal. Whether or not it "ruins the enjoyment of the music" is beside the point; ear training is not done for mere enjoyment. You might as well say that learning how to recognize different brushstrokes ruins one's enjoyment of painting.

[edit] What is ear training?

As someone who has taught ear training for many years, I have found that this is one of the least understood topics amongst musicians. It's also one of the most neglected areas amongst music educators. This is ironic as music is essentially an aural-based art form and anything you do to improve the ear will automatically improve one's enjoyment and understanding of music.

Ear training does encompass the instant recognition of pitch, harmony and rhythmic elements as outlined in this article. But the fundamental goal of ear training is not in labeling sounds, but in the learning how to "think in the language of music" - musical cognition. I think any article that discusses ear training and does not refer to "audiation" is seriously lacking. Edwin Gordon has done some very good work on audiation and the Hungarians were teaching it years before him and called it 'inner hearing'.

On the issue of using song titles as a mnemonic for intervals.. This type of training is often used as a "band-aid approach" by some (bad) teachers! It has value - particularly in learning how to identify abstract (random) intervals. However, random intervals is the most difficult form of hearing intervals and therefore is not where a beginner should start. The large majority of music is tonal and intervals occur in a tonal context - both ascending and descending - as part of a melody. It's here that the song method breaks down. There is only one way to learn intervals - to sing them in every permutation/combination within a scale and then within a melody.

[[User:Jazzyboy|Jazzyboy] 13:54, 20 December 2006 (UTC)Jazzy boy

[edit] Descending / ascending intervals

Don't know about everyone else but I hear ascending and descending intervals in a rather different way, so would it perhaps be worth organising the list of songs to reflect this? --Kick the cat 08:17, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you. In fact I agree so much, that I whipped up a table:
interval ascending descending
unison Happy Birthday to You
La Marseillaise
minor second Theme from Jaws
Nice Work If You Can Get It		 Joy to the World
Für Elise
major second Frère Jacques
Silent Night		 Mary Had a Little Lamb
Satin Doll
minor third Greensleeves
Smoke on the Water		 Hey Jude
The Star-Spangled Banner
major third When the Saints Go Marching In
Kumbaya		 Summertime
perfect fourth Auld Lang Syne
O Tannenbaum		 Eine kleine Nachtmusik
Adeste Fideles
tritone Maria (West Side Story)
[[The Simpsons opening sequence]]		 YYZ
perfect fifth Twinkle Twinkle Little Star
Also sprach Zarathustra		 Seven Steps to Heaven
minor sixth Some Day My Prince Will Come
saxophone hook from Baker Street		 You're Everything
major sixth My Bonnie Lies over the Ocean
Take the A Train		 A Weaver of Dreams
minor seventh Theme from Star Trek
Somewhere (West Side Story)		 Watermelon Man
major seventh Take on Me
Theme from Fantasy Island		 I love you
octave Over the Rainbow
Let It Snow		 Willow Weep For Me
These are some of the examples given by the present article and then some added that I came up with, in order to find two POPULAR examples for every interval. As you can see that isn't so easy for descending intervals.
I suggest we flesh this out a bit more before putting it in the article. — Mütze 13:02, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, since everybody seems to like it, I'm putting it in. — Mütze 11:29, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't think I'd take "complete silence" for "everybody likes it". It seems to me that such a table could belong more appropriately in Relative pitch where it expands on that specific topic; an Ear Training article would most appropriately simply indicate that such a strategy exists. I don't think I have a strong enough opinion either way to change anything, but it's worth a thought. aruffo 18:32, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
That was a bit tongue-in-cheek. :D Anyway, I didn't make the table from scratch, but I replaced the badly formatted list with worse examples that was there before. This is a revision, not an addition. — Mütze 17:55, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Promotional links

All of these links seem to have been promoting some kind of product or website rather than providing "information that could not be added to the article." See WP:LINKS.

Again, see WP:LINKS. aruffo 13:49, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
I read WP:LINKS and it cleary states that "Sites with other meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article, such as reviews and interviews." should be included. There were several ear training tools listed in the External Links section which are totally free, have no advertising, etc... tools that were specifically built to help others, and tools which readers of an "Ear Training" article could really benefit from. Rg3000 6 June 2007
The primary culprit is #3 under Links normally to be avoided-- "Links mainly intended to promote a website." Also quoting from that page, under Advertising and conflicts of interest: "This includes both commercial and non-commercial sites. You should avoid linking to a website that you own, maintain or represent, even if the guidelines otherwise imply that it should be linked." aruffo 19:27, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
As stated previously, there were several ear training tools/sites that I attempted to re-add yesterday morning (not just one that I'm associated with). All are perfectly suited as external links for this article per the instructions in WP:LINKS since Flash, Java Applets, and other interactive content cannot be posted directly within this article (note: per the WP guidelines, none of the links linked directly to Flash or Java applets themselves). Furthermore, some of the sites had interviews, reviews, and additional articles which similarly cannot be posted inline. Again, all of that content is specifically mentioned under "What should be linked". I don't understand why you'd think these links to useful ear training tools, which are free, on-topic, and not associated with any revenue stream or self-serving interest, could possibly be construed as a conflict of interest or merely as self-promotion. I respect your interest to prevent link spam, but I believe your refusal to allow ANY links to ear training tools and related content is a tremendous disservice to all readers of this article. With that in mind, I sincerely hope you will allow the benefit of these links to outweigh whatever personal grievances you many have. Rg3000 11:27, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
That is one way to look at it. Another way to see it is that the LINKS policy is at fault. Although I'm sure we could discuss the policy at length and in detail, the better solution is probably to quickly check with a Wikipedia admin who is more officially charged with policy interpretation and implementation, and see what (s)he says. aruffo 16:32, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Perfect Pitch

Do people who have "absolute pitch " need ear training ? Albion moonlight 12:31, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes. — Mütze 12:54, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Memorizing Melodic Sequences

Another neglected area is a method for memorizing unfamiliar sequences of notes. For example, a long guitar solo that a student is trying to transcribe. Interval training is fine but the ability to internalize and recognize a series of tones as "music" is just as important. As one of the posters noted above, internalizing music through listening and ear training is neglected in most acedemic programs. What most teachers call natural talent might be easily learned if these principles where taught.

[edit] Avoid Song Removal

Anyone who feels the need to edit the page by removing a song from the list because it is not 'popular' enough, please consider that the value of the list is how well known it is to the student, not how popular it is overall, and what is not well known to you may be rather familiar to someone else.

If you still feel the need, please document the removal in the discussion pages. That way, if someone legitimately disagrees with your decision, at least it's easier to find the deleted entry than in the history pages, and the reasoning behind the removal.

Tedclaymore (talk) 22:04, 21 March 2008 (UTC)