Talk:E lucevan le stelle
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These are not "lyrics"!!! These are just the words sung by Cavaradossi, but not "lyrics" --Al Pereira(talk) 18:33, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Themes and closing bars
I've added (reinstated) a note that the theme of the aria is essentially the same of the final bars of the opera. This may be a naive comment and the theme may well be first announced much earlier in the work (if so, please expand) - but I think it's more useful to note this, augmneted if appropriate, rather than just saying 'this is one of the best known...' Bob aka Linuxlad (talk) 08:52, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
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- You added it nicely compared to the earlier that I removed. It is now look more appropriate and I dont have any objections, besides, I agree that the theme is repeated. Cheers. - Jay (talk) 09:36, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
- The earlier addition ("The music is thematically similar to the closing bars of the opera (as Tosca jumps from the ramparts)") was also completely appropriate, clearly written, accurate and of benefit to the article. I can't understand why it was removed in the first place. (I'm not the one who added it, I'm just commenting.) Linuxlad, the more detailed rephrasing is OK too, but I'm just wondering if it could be more clearly put. Right now it says:
- (The clarinet theme which introduces the aria is to restated forte in the closing bars of the opera, as Tosca jumps from the ramparts)
- Perhaps without the "to" and the parentheses?:
- The clarinet theme which introduces the aria is restated forte in the closing bars of the opera, as Tosca jumps from the ramparts. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 10:34, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
- Or maybe add "be"?:
- The clarinet theme which introduces the aria is to be restated forte in the closing bars of the opera, as Tosca jumps from the ramparts. Voceditenore (talk) 10:57, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
- Since in the romanza the same melody is performed firstly by the clarinet and then by the tenor ("O dolci baci, o languide carezze"), there is no reason to refer to the clarinet talking about the "perorazione" at the end of the opera. --Al Pereira(talk) 00:54, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
- I've rephrased again to focus on the theme being repeated and where. However, in a separate and preceding sentence, I've mentioned that the aria is introduced by a clarinet solo. Virtually all descriptions of the aria's music mention this, and Mosco Carner even states that it's a fairly unusual introduction. Therefore, I think it's worth mentioning here. Personally, I would also change the description at the beginning of the article from 'romanza' (a more technical term and one which very rarely used in English descriptions) to the more commonly used term 'aria'. Both Julian Budden (Puccini: His Life and Works - Page 219 et al.) and Mosco Carner (Giacomo Puccini, Tosca - Page 102 et al.) refer to 'E lucevan le stelle' as an aria not a romananza. Equally, I would change 'incipit' to 'opening bars' (or something similar). This is not an encyclopedia written for musicologists. Nor is it an encyclopedia written for an Italian readership. It is an encylopedia written in English for general interest readers. It should be accurate yes, but it should also be accessible and clear - in the same way that Carner's and Budden's writing for an English speaking readership is accessible and clear. I'm not going to push the point, but it's something to keep in mind. Best wishes, Voceditenore (talk) 06:07, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
- The use of the clarinet solo is very important and should be mentioned; I said that the theme cannot be identified as the clarinet theme. Aria is generic but correct, romanza is more exact and I would prefer it. The form A-A is typical of the romanza (see for instance the example from Bizet in Romance (music)). Opening bars is ok. In general, I think that the encyclopedia should be first at all accurate, as well as accessible and clear if this is possible. --Al Pereira(talk) 11:51, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
- I've rephrased again to focus on the theme being repeated and where. However, in a separate and preceding sentence, I've mentioned that the aria is introduced by a clarinet solo. Virtually all descriptions of the aria's music mention this, and Mosco Carner even states that it's a fairly unusual introduction. Therefore, I think it's worth mentioning here. Personally, I would also change the description at the beginning of the article from 'romanza' (a more technical term and one which very rarely used in English descriptions) to the more commonly used term 'aria'. Both Julian Budden (Puccini: His Life and Works - Page 219 et al.) and Mosco Carner (Giacomo Puccini, Tosca - Page 102 et al.) refer to 'E lucevan le stelle' as an aria not a romananza. Equally, I would change 'incipit' to 'opening bars' (or something similar). This is not an encyclopedia written for musicologists. Nor is it an encyclopedia written for an Italian readership. It is an encylopedia written in English for general interest readers. It should be accurate yes, but it should also be accessible and clear - in the same way that Carner's and Budden's writing for an English speaking readership is accessible and clear. I'm not going to push the point, but it's something to keep in mind. Best wishes, Voceditenore (talk) 06:07, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
- Since in the romanza the same melody is performed firstly by the clarinet and then by the tenor ("O dolci baci, o languide carezze"), there is no reason to refer to the clarinet talking about the "perorazione" at the end of the opera. --Al Pereira(talk) 00:54, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
- The clarinet theme which introduces the aria is to be restated forte in the closing bars of the opera, as Tosca jumps from the ramparts. Voceditenore (talk) 10:57, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
- The earlier addition ("The music is thematically similar to the closing bars of the opera (as Tosca jumps from the ramparts)") was also completely appropriate, clearly written, accurate and of benefit to the article. I can't understand why it was removed in the first place. (I'm not the one who added it, I'm just commenting.) Linuxlad, the more detailed rephrasing is OK too, but I'm just wondering if it could be more clearly put. Right now it says:
- You added it nicely compared to the earlier that I removed. It is now look more appropriate and I dont have any objections, besides, I agree that the theme is repeated. Cheers. - Jay (talk) 09:36, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Worth noting too that the music isn't identical - in particular the final bars are in the major, surely... Linuxlad (talk) 11:30, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
- the final bars are in minor (it's only a little "coda"). --Al Pereira(talk) 11:51, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
