Talk:E. Honda

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[edit] His gameplay

What's a "sure-killing" technique in Honda's case? Everybody knows he loses to fireball-dudes (almost everyone) .He hasn't got any sure-killing techniques, maybe good ones but not sure-killing. Can somebody change that? 1stLtLombardi 18:30, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edmond Honda vs. E. Honda

  • This page needs the name changed to E.Honda. The first line says it all: "more commonly known as E.Honda". That's because E.Honda is his only official name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.129.28.21 (talk • contribs)
    • Sorry, you're wrong. His official name *is* Edmond Honda, called E.Honda for short. Danny Lilithborne 19:17, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
      • So why isn't Tom Cruise's page named Thomas Cruise Mapother IV? His most common name is E. Honda and the page needs to be changed to this. Edmond Honda should be a redirect but his page should be E. Honda as this is the character's official name. Every game he is featured in calls him E. Honda, in manuals, at the top of the screen and anywhere else. The title of the page isn't a place where you need to give viewer's extra information. If people want to know what E stands for, then they can read the article. Mr.bonus 19:04, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
        • That's not relevant as he's a real person. There are plenty of other characters that have articles by their full names even though they're not commonly referred to as such (Yun Lee, Maki Genryusai, Rolento Schugerg). I'm moving this and Thunder Hawk back to their original names. If you still have a problem, take it to dispute resolution. Danny Lilithborne 23:24, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
        • Terrible argument. I know there are lots of other articles using full names, but they are wrong also. This articles needs to be named after his most common name, not his full name. There is no valid argument as to why the page is the full name. Mr.bonus 15:39, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
          • Yes, I think his page should be named E. Honda, as that is the name he is known by. Edmond Honda is extra information that is not needed in the page's title. Plus, not one game has his name written as Edmond. He is always called E. Honda. I also think T. Hawk's page should be T. Hawk, and the others for exampl Rolento, should be called Rolento (Street Fighter) or Rolento (Final Fight). No full names in character pages' titles. Is there even proof that the E stands for Edmond? I think it's just something Capcom of America added. Maybe Capcom Japan later acknowledged this, but I'm pretty sure the E. didn't stand for anything when he was first invented (1991). Bobmills 16:55, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • If that's what you want to do, then you better get busy; there's a whole lot of articles that use full names:
  • And that's just for Street Fighter. Danny Lilithborne 06:32, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Yes I know, and other games are even worse (Soul Edge and Samurai Shodown). Mr.bonus 13:35, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
    • I have just moved all the pages to the correct article names. Now the article names refer to how they are known in all of Capcom's games, not in any outside materials - You can find out full names in the first paragraph of each article. I have also created R. Mika as a redirect. Mr.bonus 14:08, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
      • I've chosen to actually disagree with your statements and move the page back to "Edmond Honda". My reasons for this are very simple: where his name is stated in game, it is not "E. Honda": it is either "Edmond Honda" (see his SFA3 in-game bio) or "Honda". The "E." is simply the result of space limitations due to font size for the lifebars, and not his "official" name. A redirect suffices more than enough than moving around and removing character's last names from pages. A similar example I could use would be someone such as "Dirty Harry": obviously this is not the character's actual name, but is the more commonly used or seen one. Does it make it any more encyclopedic? No, it does not. In fact drawing this example a bit further, isn't it "Mike Bison" for the boxer in the japanese version of SNK vs. Capcom: Chaos?--Kung Fu Man 02:02, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
        • Alpha 3 bio? That's the only place in history where Capcom has called him Edmond or used Masters as Ken's last name. Try and find another example, then. Because you will never find one. To prove your argument is wrong, he has never been called just Honda even though you say he has. It is nothing to do with space restrictions, he is always called E. Honda because that is the official character name. So what's your argument as to why he is called E. Honda in all instruction manuals ever published then? To save ink? Mr.bonus 00:58, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
          • One more thing - "E. Honda" google image search - 720 results, "Edmond Honda" google image search - 40 results. Probably space limitations....Mr.bonus 01:05, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
          • And E Honda turns up 716. And Edmund Honda turns up 15. And EHonda turns up 187. Wow. Way to use a completely pointless example but I guess that's probably space limitations of a different sort. Regardless this going against the consistency of other pages. And I'm pretty sure that "Edmond" was known before SFA3 came about, so that too is a very bad example. Oh, and it is Honda in a few cases, though IIRC many of which aren't canon.
            • Just to clarify, Edmond is listed as his first name in the Street Fighter II instruction manual, well before Alpha. As for being called just Honda, check his Street Fighter II ending. -Babomb 10:10, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
              • I know Edmond Honda has always been his biographical name, but it was never mentioned in a Capcom game until Alpha 3. Mr.bonus 19:34, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I think I'll give an admin a shout about this one.--Kung Fu Man 02:04, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

There is some credence in retaining the full names for article titles:

  • Overuse of disambiguation - not strictly a game thing, but a Wikipedia thing. I believe there is a blurb in WP:NC about trying to disambiguate whenever possible, and only use parenthesis like King (Tekken) as a last resort.
  • Official sources. From the (Japanese) Capcom website on SFA3, we do have it that Sakura and Karin have last names right in the section that introduced the characters (what do you think the text "春日野 さくら" stood for?), as does R. Mika, T. Hawk, and E. Honda in their bios. FF:Streetwise retconned a last name onto Cody. Rolento and Maki both had last names from official sources, albeit harder to find ones. Cammy had a surname in SSF2, although it may have been retconned by SFA3 (I haven't played FF:Streetwise to see if Cammy also had a last name there). Not sure about Sean or the brothers, as I haven't checked an SF3 source. Ken has a surname only in English translation of the games and in derivative works (the anime OVAs had this). As for Vega, that is entirely made up by the fan community.
  • Space limitations and/or use of abbreviation - why is Rugal Bernstein only referred to as "Rugal B." in KOF 98? Why is BlizzardMan in MegaMan Battle Network 5 referred to as "BlizMan" in all but one mention in that game? Why is Johnny Cage solely referred to as "Cage" in the MK1 lifebar but as his full name on the MK3 lifebar? How it appears in in-game text is not the sole factor in how an article should be named. Otherwise you'd be trying to move articles such as Sol Badguy, Jam Kuradoberi, Kula Diamond, Hinako Shijou, Ash Crimson, Kubikiri Basara, Kusaregedo Youkai, Liu Yunfei, Keiichiro Washizuka, Moriya Minakata, Hibiki Takane, Akari Ichijou (and the list goes on and on) because the in-game text only uses a part of the name.

kelvSYC 09:26, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

  • Same question to you - what's your argument as to why he is called E. Honda in all instruction manuals ever published then? To save ink? It's nothing to do with space restrictions. When are you going to realise that calling the character E. Honda was a concious decision? It started a trend of games copying this naming convention, B. Orchid, J. Carn and Y. Signal to name the first 3 that popped into my head. The character is called E. Honda where ever he appears - "space restrictions" or not.. So why is it then, that inside a random strategy guide from 1992, it says E. Honda all over the page, in banners, the title, under his images etc. But only says Edmond in a little bio section on the bottom of the page? Because that's how it should be - Edmond is extra trivia and not the name he goes by. Bottom line - there are hundreds of instances where he is called E. Honda - His name under the energy bar, on the player select, ending stories and instruction booklets for every game he has appeared in. Compare this to one time his was called Edmond in a Capcom game- his Alpha 3 bio - which is only there to list supplementary information. Mr.bonus 15:21, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Um... Japanese sources have occasionally put the entire first name in katakana instead of just an "E.", and the name "Edmond Honda" has appeared in an English-language SF2 manual (IIRC, the SNES version manual has stated it as such). The SSF2 manual also states "Thunder Hawk", while official Capcom sources have used "Rainbow Mika" in full, so your assertion that the first name has only appeared on one place is false from the start. The reason why they are abbreviated to "E. Honda", "R. Mika", and "T. Hawk" is space restrictions - "Edmond Honda" in full is significantly longer than the names of the other world warriors, for example. How about a more recent example - do you think the life bar, or any other in-game text, has the space for "Satsui no Hadou ni mezameta Ryu" (even longer might be the members of the Orichi New Face Team in KOF)? Derivative works use the shorter form for the sake of abbreviation (and some may even go further to remove the "E." part entirely, as is the case with M. Bison). As for Ken Masters, I'd have to look in the Japanese version of Capcom vs. SNK 2 to see if there is any reference to his last name, as his last name is referenced in the English version. The only true debate I'd think, for SF anyways, would be whether Cammy has a surname, as the SSF2 Cammy seemed to have a last name retconned to it (to make it seem that she was adopted).
Again, as I have stated, your line of logic is unreasonable: consider Kim Kaphwan - in recent years he has been solely referred to by his surname (apparently for legal reasons, as Kim was named after an actual person), so by your logic the article on him should be moved to something that does not refer to his first name. Similarly, Ralf Jones had been, up to KOF 2002, been solely referred to by his given name in-game, although his surname is well-known (and can be seen in an KOF98 ending picture). Should we move that article? Elizabeth Blanctorche has not appeared in a game where the in-game text has her name in full. Why don't we move it? How about Jam Kuradoberi (just "Jam" in GG)? Liu Yunfei ("Yunfei")? Amakusa Shirou Tokisada ("Amakusa", sometimes "Shirou Amakusa")? Tarmacle Roving (initially without a name, later "Tarma")? Just because a short version of a name is solely used in a game does not warrant it to be the title of the article about the character, to the exclusion of all other (possibly more complete and/or more descriptive) names. kelvSYC 07:43, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
      • I wondered how long it would be before someone started using the moot argument of King of Fighters charater's page titles. I've never contested their page names. Certain fighting games use characters full names all the time. The KOF series' character's last names are as important as their first. The same goes for Tekken, VF, Fatal Fury and Art of Fighting. Last names are always displayed or spoken. But in Street FIghter, the last names are very rarely listed. There's a difference. It's no good saying that "well, KOF characters always have last names visible". I know they do, but in SF, last names aren't needed and only serve as extra trivia. Another game series that uses only one name is the Soul Edge series. The character pages on Wiki are titled by the character's full names and they are wrong. The character's are named primarily Mitsurugi, Siegfried, Rock etc and not their full names. When I get around to it I will try and change these. This will be a much harder job though as fans of the Soul Edge series are obsessed with the story aspect of the game (just check the pages - OTT detailed bios). My main point is that the pages should be titled after the most commonly used name. Ryo Sakazaki and Kazuya Mishima are more commonly used than simply Ryo and Kazuya. Whereas Edmond Honda and Heishiro Mitsurugi are used far less times than simply E. Honda or Mitsurugi. Using less common names as article titles is stupid, and that is my entire problem with these pages titles. It's what's in the game that is important, not what's in outside sources. And finally - the space restriction argument holds very little water, The announcer on Super SF2 isn't trying to save breath when he announces "E. Honda wins" or "T. Hawk wins". Maybe if the announcer said Edmond, you would have a point, as this name would have been used by Capcom in a game. Go to the player select of SFIII and choose Sean, did the text or announcer say Matsuda? No. Now do the same for Heihachi in Tekken, the announcer and text does say Mishima, there is your difference. Mr.bonus 17:33, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Wow this is like talking to a brick wall...okay, first off, a) clashes with the naming standard on Wikipedia: despite what you think, they should go with a common first name and surname. "E." is not a valid surname. b) Your point about them being most common is moot as "E. Honda" can easily redirect to "Edmond Honda" without any actual harm to anyone, c) several times here regarding these articles you've shown you really have little clue about factual information relating to them (Edmond only came with SFA3? There's no point he's called Honda? His name has no purpose? Sean wasn't supposed to be the only SF3 shoto from the getgo (confirmed by AAC)? Oh, and there's actual supporting evidence in Spinal's ending and design notes that he is indeed a throwback nod to Jason and the Argonaughts (film), but I digress). d) The vast majority here is actually disagreeing with your logic if you haven't been paying attention.

Basically either you have to start reading up some more because reverting changes to stuff because you consider something non-factual because you haven't heard it before is a bit annoying, or you really have to be prepared to change EVERY FICTIONAL ARTICLE NAME here on the whole of wikipedia. The encyclopedia is about consistency, something you apparently aren't even trying to understand.--Kung Fu Man 19:04, 24 January 2007 (UTC)


        • The encyclopaedia is about consistency is it? Well, it's far more consistent to name the articles as I am lobbying for, because there are only a handful of SF characters who even have a canonical surname. You can't argue for articles across a related subject to be named M.Bison - Cammy White and Ryu (Street Fighter) and then talk about maintaining consistency.

And "talking to a brick wall"? That's exactly what it feels like I'm doing. You disregard almost every single thing I bring up (which are ALL valid points - what else would I be basing my stance on?) just because. You don't have a particularly valid reason when you disagree. As just one of my example proves - WHY does the announcer say "E. Honda" and "T. Hawk" on Super SF2, when he could easily say the full names? What exactly is your defense against this?

It is easy to see that you don't have the best intentions when you go looking through my contributions for other things to disagree with... Mr.bonus 19:32, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I'd have to check, but I was pretty sure it was just "You win" or "you lose" for those. Also, while we're on the subject of consistency, guess what? The M. in Bison's name is confirmed to stand for NOTHING. The closest anyone can figure is it's either Mister or Master. Capcom never bothered giving the M. a meaning because he's Vega in Japan. Ryu also has no last name. He's just Ryu in everything but the live action movie and that isn't canon. There is consistency becuase that's pretty much all the info available. And I'm not discrediting you 'just because'.--Kung Fu Man 20:14, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Regardless, the mediator agreed with the way things are here, so not much can be said beyond that. However do the rest of us a favor and keep your pov out of your changes to articles when something factual disagrees with what you think, such as the bit about Sean,.please?--Kung Fu Man 20:52, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
    • I'm glad someone else was able to see where I was coming from because I knew it was wrong to name articles after full names. Now we've got to sort out Soul Edge/Calibur because those page names are in an even worse situation. Nathanial "Rock" Adams and Isabella "Ivy" Valentine are completely wrong titles of the articles and need to be changed. Except for bios, the characters are only named Rock and Ivy. I was surprised I even had to fight to get these articles changed, just the fact that someone cared enough about naming convention should be enough without all this debate. How could anyone disagree with using the most common name as the article title? I have to say that the mediator did very well in resolving the situation, and not just because it went in my favour. Mr.bonus 21:58, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
      • A note. The announcer indeed does use the names of the characters in Super Street Fighter II. And I feel this case should also go for Final Fantasy characters as well (how many people know Cloud's last name is Strife?) JuJube 01:53, 25 January

2007 (UTC)

        • That doesn't exactly seem the same to me. "Cloud Strife" is stated as his name in the instruction manual and several times throughout the story. King Zeal 13:56, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
          • Where in the game does it say that? JuJube 23:59, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
            • Huh. You're right. I just checked a script, and it doesn't. King Zeal 13:44, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

And as I have said before, in-game text should not be the only source, to the exclusion of all other valid sources, which is the position that you seem to take. No KOF game has stated Rugal Bernstein's surname other than the fact that it starts with a B in-game (it was "Rugal B." in KOF94 and KOF98, "Rugal" in KOF2002 and CVS2, and "Omega Rugal" in KOF95), even though the surname has been used in other documentation. Similarly, characters introduced after KOF2003 have only been so far referred to one name in-game - nowhere is Elizabeth Blanctorche's surname does it appear in KOFXI, for example, despite the fact that their full names have been stated in pre-release documentation. In short, the position that you have will not lead to any productive consensus, due to the presence of systematic bias. kelvSYC 18:36, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

  • I always thought that all KOF characters had full names but if Bernstein is never mentioned in the games, then he is an exception - his page should be called Rugal B. Just because the B may stand for something, that is the name he goes by and is therefore his most common name. Most users tend to forget that the idea of Wikipedia is to give people unfamiliar with the subject matter information - teaching people about something they may not know anything about. If such a user looks at this page, then from the title alone, they would be aware that E. Honda is his most common name and if they wanted to carry on learning about this character from other sources - otherwise they would probably end up searching for Edmond Honda and finding far less information. The purpose of Wiki is not to show hardcore game fans a few facts they may have missed - and certainly not in page titles. Remember that these pages are not primarily for people like us, but for people who aren't like us. Mr.bonus 17:33, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
    • I have moved Rugal and Elisabeth based on your information. Are there any other KOF characters where surnames are not given in the games? For example - I have never heard that Hinako's full name is Hinako Shijou - is this ever mentioned in the games she appears in or just from outside sources? I don't think there are many more character's without common surnames in KOF. Mr.bonus 17:49, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Honda as a Hawaiian in the live action film

Why Honda is depicted in the live action Street Fighter movie as being Hawaiian?

  • It's a mystery. Danny Lilithborne 20:49, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
    • To make American's identify with the character easier. Not exactly a mystery. Mr.bonus 19:36, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Check the Japanese wiki

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/E.HONDA

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fja.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FE.HONDA&langpair=ja%7Cen&hl=en&safe=off&c2coff=1&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools

Has some answers to some things I thought were questionable:

English version says he wears only a blue mawashi.

While the japanese version says he wears a blue bathrobe (yukata).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f8/Edmund_Honda.jpg/200px-Edmund_Honda.jpg does show a blue bathrobe and that might be a red mawashi or speedos underneath.

And that he wears red kabuki face paint. He has that kabuki neck roll gesture as a win pose. As I recall I think wearing face paint was a disgrace to sumo. Sorry it was from an old EGM article.

But I always wondered why his first name was Edmond/Edmund (Is he part american/english/german?). The japanese wiki says some about his name being originally E. Suzuki but that's all I can understand from he machine translation.

[edit] Blue Mawashi?

I thought a Mawashi was the thong/belt style garment worn by sumos. Taka-Arashi wears a purple Mawashi but E. Honda wears something like a blue bath towel. Is the terminology correct? It was called a "skirt" on the SF Animated Movie trivia section. Dan Lander 19:10, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

  • I can answer that. In fact, Honda wears a red mawashi and a blue yukata over it, as seen in this sprite from his Sumo Splash special move.[1] Basara-kun 06:29, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] edmond

how did he get the name edmond. seems odd for a japanese guy to have that name

[edit] sumotorrent

E Honda's likeness is currently being plagarized on sumotorrent.com - look and see... Filter1987 01:27, 24 August 2007 (UTC)