Talk:E. F. L. Wood, 1st Earl of Halifax

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Mr. impossible, I think your additions are pretty POV. I'm inclined to revert, but there's probably stuff that can be salvaged. I'd note, also, that you need to describe his anti-semitic behavior, or whatever, towards Hore-Belisha, not just refer to it glancingly. Also, it's pretty questionable to refer to Anthony "who cares what Germany does in its own backyard" Eden as an "anti-appeaser." And Halifax's comments about Hitler were generally in the context of being in meetings in Germany with Hitler or Göring, or whoever. I don't see as "things diplomats say to be polite" can be taken to represent what someone actually thinks. Halifax was certainly less rosy about appeasement than Chamberlain - recall that Halifax led the cabinet revolt after the Bad Godesberg meeting, and also pressed Chamberlain towards a more assertive policy after Prague. Halifax also had pretty much nothing to do with Oswald Mosley (who was a Labour politician before going fascist, first of all). And he did a good job both as Viceroy of India and as wartime ambassador to the United States. john 20:11, 2 May 2004 (UTC)



Dear John,

Call me Jo, because it's my name. I pretty much agree with you. I'm still sort of new around here and whatever the tone actually is I don't think I've quite got it. I was updating the list of UK ambassadors, stumbled across this page and was appalled by its stubbiness since Halifax is pretty important in WW2 politics. I didn't have enough info to hand to do a full rewrite so I did a vague and biased one in order to encourage someone to do a better job - which nearly worked (!). In any case, I hate dry articles. So certainly my amendments were more opinion than fact but I sort of question some of your changes - though tentatively.

I did indeed sketch over the anti-semitism because I've just written Leslie Hore-Belisha as well, which I hope you won't also take exception to - it's factually far sounder. I had that in mind so more detail here ("inappropriate to have a Jew in charge of publicity") might be a good idea.

It was much better - I think there were some bits that were kind of POV, and I think you're exaggerating the power of "fascist sympathizers" among the Tories. Certainly Halifax was not a fascist sympathizer. And I'd add that you can find Winston Churchill saying almost exactly the same things about Hitler that Halifax did. That doesn't make either of them fascist or nazi sympathizers. john 23:33, 2 May 2004 (UTC)

I'd prefer to think of Antony "I hate Nasser" Eden as an anti-appeaser because that's (I believe) why he resigned from the cabinet in 1938 and why Churchill appointed him Foreign Secretary and also had something to do with Eden suceeding Churchill as PM. They were a political faction. Semi-coincidentally he resigned about the time that Hore-Belisha's request to mobilise was slapped down as it was becoming more and more clear that Chamberlain could not be persuaded by any means to adopt an aggressive posture. Not by any UK politician anyway.

Eden was an opportunist, pure and simple. When he actually was Foreign Secretary, he was as much of an appeaser as anybody else. He had personal issues with Chamberlain, and thought he was incompetent, but didn't disagree with his basic attitude to foreign affairs. It was only after his resignation that he got all anti-appeasement.

On Halifax's comments about Hitler, these were not just in the public arena but also in his private diary. I'm not saying (and indeed did not say, because it would be completely untrue) that Halifax was a Nazi or even in his own terms a nazi-sympathiser. I'm simply saying that in common with many right-wing politicians in 30's Britain he admired Hitler's transformation of Germany from basketcase to industrial strongman of Europe. I mentioned Mosley to emphasise this movement; probably a bridge too far. Incidentally the one thing that Churchill and Mosley had in common was their propensity to switch parties. The latter was a Conservative first (as the youngest MP in the house) for several years only later switching to Labour. If you're a national socialist I suppose you get schizophrenic about stuff like that.

Yes, a lot of conservative politicians said things like that about Hitler (including Churchill, as I noted above). But I think it's unfair to say it in such an out of context way. As it was written, it did suggest that Halifax was a Nazi-sympathizer, and possibly a fascist. I don't think that's really fair. And also I don't think it's right to connect this with appeasement - Churchill was anti-appeasement, and said many of the same things about Hitler that Halifax did. And Halifax probably said nicer things about Hitler than Chamberlain ever did, but Chamberlain was much more avid about appeasement than his foreign secretary. You're right about Mosley, of course (although they both shared on admiration of Mussolini, as well...). He married Curzon's daughter, and switched to Labour in the 20s sometime. john 23:33, 2 May 2004 (UTC)

On the subject of who was the bigger appeaser - Chamberlain or Halifax - I simply don't know enough to comment except to say that I don't think there's a lot of credit to be had here. Certainly if you think he was a good viceroy/ambassador you could back that up. I'm sure he was - although Churchill surely did most of the talking to Roosevelt...actually the more I think about it (and I'm okay on anglo-american relations) the more I think of Halifax as a rather sidelined figure but perhaps we could talk about that.

I agree there's not much credit to either Chamberlain or Halifax on appeasement, although I think Chamberlain was almost certainly a much more deeply stupid and naive appeaser than Halifax. But that says more to how bad Chamberlain was than to anything good about Halifax. As to his role as ambassador, I'll look in my copy of Roosevelt and Hopkins, which talks about Halifax's arrival in Washington, but my understanding is that Churchill considered the position to be pretty tremendously important - remember that in the beginning of 1941, he was still trying to get the US to come into the war. Of course he was also trying to get rid of Halifax, and Churchill did do a lot of personal diplomacy with Roosevelt, but I think it's hard to say that the position of ambassador to Britain's most important ally (and he also remained a member of the very tiny war cabinet, too) is some sort of kicked upstairs sinecure. As to his role in Washington, from my memory the Americans were at first highly unenthusiastic about him, because they thought of him as, well, a big appeaser, but that later they warmed to him. john 23:33, 2 May 2004 (UTC)

Anyway that's my analysis. I think we both might have been a bit sweeping but I'm sure we can knock a good article of all this so that's nice and it's my first chance to have a big ramble (can you tell I'm enjoying myself) about a wiki article so that's nice too.

A fresh nugget (I won't do an update until we've come to a gentlemen's agreement -oh rats, that needs an addition as well - on the content) is that Halifax features in the novel (and the film) of The Remains of the Day by Kazuo Ishiguro. But I promise that's not where I'm getting my information from.

Sorry to have gone on so tediously.

--Mr impossible 23:01, 2 May 2004 (UTC)

We can probably work out a good article. Certainly stuff like casual anti-semitism and comments admiring Hitler can be worked in, but I think it's important to contextualize them, and to try to avoid tying them to support for appeasement, which I think had a lot more to do with an understandable desire to avoid war, and all that, than it did with any admiration of Hitler's government or sympathy for his persecution of Jews. I might work off Britannica's version to get a more substantial article, at some point. john 23:33, 2 May 2004 (UTC)


Finally got round to a properly researched update - though if you're good on international relations 1938-9, that section might need some tweaking. Is there any chance you could put one of those menu things in to break it up a bit? It's now got a bit unwieldy. Also I've removed Goschen from this page because a quick look at Wilmington's biography and a copy of the DK 20th century day by day shows that he was Halifax's successor. I'd recommend that Goschen's article by either rewritten - preferably not by me - or marked for deletion because there's nothing in it but inaccurate information. I won't edit the Viceroy list myself because I know you don't like your lists tangled with and I heard a rumour you were stressed enough as it is.

--Mr impossible 15:36, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

I assume you mean Willingdon? I will just change the Goschen article to say he was governor of Madras from 1924 to 1929, and change the Viceroy article (although you could've done it yourself). At any rate, much good work with this expansion, although it presently seems a bit 1911-ish in its Olympian judgments - it might need a bit of NPOVing, but I think it's okay. I'll add something on 1938 to 1939 when I get the chance. john 20:27, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Article Title

Before he was made Lord Irwin, I've generally seen him referenced as "E.F.L. Wood." As such, wasn't the previous location (with the full name) more appropriate? john k 01:17, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I think so. However, I'm generally in favor of doing these kinds of moves, if only to simplify linking. Mackensen 01:19, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] FIRST Earl of H.?

Is it possible that TWO 1st Earls with the same name did exist in history: (1) E.F.L. Wood and (2) "Charles Montagu, 1st Earl of Halifax, KG, PC, FRS (16 April 1661–19 May 1715)", an English poet and statesman? And if so, how?
--ECeDee 15:02, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually it's even more complicated than that. Have a look at Earl of Halifax! These titles are in the gift of the monarch and they revert to the crown if there aren't the correct heirs about (as in Montagu's case) so over long periods of time they can be given out again. And again. --Mr impossible 12:32, 23 January 2007 (UTC)