Talk:Dwarf
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 |
Dwarf has had a peer review by Wikipedia editors which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article. |
[edit] Dropas
Why are Dropas mentioned as if they were real. In another article, they are classified as "Cryptid".
Are you really going to try to claim that there were no genetic Asian dwarfs? Why do you object to the name Dropas for them? Do you have a better supported name? Dropas is a name and Cryptid is a classification, that is that are not substitutes for one another.
Hey, I'm a different guy from the one who posted this message originally, but I erased the little paragraph about the "Known to Science" bit--I'm sorry, there are no subway Dwarfs known to science that live off the souls of anything, bleh. Let's be clear that these are about fictional thingies. If people want to write about them as if they are real, doesn't that merit it's own article or heading? I wouldn't want the rest of the article to be thrown out as rubbish because someone couldn't keep it about more general lore. 67.175.247.91 09:16, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Dwarf = thorp?
I'm wondering what the evidence is that "dwarf" is related to "thorp", etc. It seems odd, and the American Heritage Dictionary doesn't confirm it. --JerryFriedman 01:35, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Neither does the NSOED or Eric Partridge's Origins. --207.188.128.246 22:03, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Kröpel
The main article states that Dawves are called 'kröpel' (lit: Earth-men) in German. I sincerely doubt that, references would be welcome. The German 'Krüppel' refers to someone who is bent (hunchback).. Sejtam 13:48, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] RPG?
Why is there an entire paragraph dedicated to one specific role-playing game's view of dwarfs? This is Wikipedia, not a damned RPG manual.
Aspects of the rpg manual have bearing in the fantasy fiction literature that non gamers may not otherwise grasp. It was included as a way to help classify dwarven types. It may need editing.
While you may possibly (as your profanity implies) be bigoted towards RPGs, they are a relevant part of both American and world culture and references to them should not be censored.
___
Perhaps relevant to the American and world culture of over-privileged, suburban teens and young adults. However, I think this comment seriously over estimates RPGs relevance to society at-large. References to RPGs take up a disproportionate amount of space in this article, and while references should not be censored, they should be edited. Grasping for loaded terms (bigoted) to defend the relevance of RPGs may serve as an example of how isolated and self-absorbed the RPG "culture" is.
This article is about fantasy Dwarfs in general. One could make the same argument against J.R.R. Tolkien. You could even make that argument against contact lenses, computers and private schooling! P.S. Please sign your posts. Craobh sidhe (talk) 17:37, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] May be real
They may be real; I may have met one. In 1960s I worked in Florida. A co-worker was a former US soldier, who had been stationed in West Germany. He had married a German woman and brought her back to the States with him.
She was stunning... in the sense of when you first met her you were stunned. Good way to characterize her would be: "looks like a sister of the 7 Dwarfs." She was about 4 feet tall or less, of stocky build, with full pendulous breasts. She had a large head, and some warts on her face. She spoke basic English, with a strong German accent. And I remember her as not too bright... but that may have been because of her limited English, of not understanding much of what she heard. Was she a mutation? Were there more like her? I don't know. I never asked because I was too polite, did not want to embarrass her. Now, much older, I would unlease my curiousity.
Why do I remember her? She was a unique experience. And every little knome garden statue I see is a reminder.
- Wow, that's beautiful. It deserves its own article. Um... have you read dwarfism? Just asking. Foday 02:32, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
I added the section about how dwarves could be folk memories of neanderthals. Perhaps I should make a completely new article on the subject, but the majority of my observations are recorded (if briefly) in this section.
- I don't know why it's necessary to bring up "folk memories" when Dwarfism is demonstrably a real condition. -Aranel ("Sarah") 15:22, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
-
- Right. I've deleted the section on Vitus Dröscher (not Droesher), since the one-sentence comment on his theory either removed all his evidence that made the theory plausible or was an accurate statement of a theory based on pure speculation - in the former case it is to be hoped that someone able to read German (or who has access to the relevant English translation) could re-add it with more detail. I have added in the problems with long "folk memory" theories - the concept was invented by Freud, and depends on Lamarckism for its theoretical base, but, well, if it's citable, it's worth leaving in, even if it needs clear signs of doubt around it. But the question is: Is it citable? The comment above seems to indicate it as a personal theory of one person. If that is true, the whole paragraph about it should be deleted. Adam Cuerden 22:58, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
-
- Deleted as pet theory. Text follows of original Adam Cuerden 11:31, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Another possibility is that dwarves are folk memories of the Neanderthals that populated Europe and Asia up to the end of the Neolithic era (dying out approximately 50,000 to 30,000 years ago), coexisting for part of this time with modern humans. This fits rather well into the picture of the dwarf, as Neanderthals were on average shorter but burlier than humans and possessed stronger features (broader noses, more pronounced brow ridges, and so forth), which could be seen by ancient humans as deformities (dwarves are commonly said to be "deformed"). It is also thought that Neanderthal culture revolved more around tool and weapon crafting, explaining why dwarves of legend were known as craftsmen. Finally, Neanderthals (like so many humans) used caves as shelters, thus making them "subterranean" beings. However, this theory depends on the belief that memories of events can become stuck in a culture's psyche and be passed down accurately for many thousands of years. Such things were proposed by Sigmund Freud, but depended upon Lamarckism as a scientific basis, which has been discredited.
---
This neaderthal theory derives from a number of science fiction novels written in the 1960s by Philip Jose Farmer (they were pastiches on Tarzan and Doc Savage). One of their premises was that the world is run by a secret society of individuals who had discovered the secret of immortality in the stone age. One of these was a neaderthal and in connection with him the whole theory that dwarves were a racial memory of neaderthals was spelled out.
In general this articel is extremely confused and confusing. There is certainly a huge differnce between folk traditions and commerical products aimed at American teenagers. This article ought to be divided into three discrete articles or at least sections: Drawves in Folklore; Drawves in Tolkien (and any other serious literature in which they appear); and drawves in RPGs, comic books, mass market films, and other commerical products. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.0.47.14 (talk) 04:57, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Neanderthal
I to would like to see a section mentioning the possiblitiy that dwarves could be folk memories formed from a co-existence of living alongside Neanderthalls. Dwarves live under ground in caves and so did the Neanderthall. The Dwarf was supposed to be short but not nessessarily small which discribes the Neanderthall. Neanderthall was short in comparrison to Norse Mankind yet they were squat and muscular. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.34.227.166 (talk) 13:32, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Plural?
The preferred plural of dwarf is "dwarfs," not "dwarves," though that is what Tolkein used. Should we change it to "dwarfs?" Does wikipedia have a standard? DKK
The _Oxford American Dictionary_ lists both "dwarfs" and "dwarves" as accepted plurals. The _Oxford English Dictionary_ does not mention Tolkein, but traces the etymology of "dwarfs" (in the sense of diminuitively sized plants) to 1664; it traces "dwarves" to 1818. I would say both are acceptible, but perhaps someone should correct the original article so as not to imply that Tolkein was the inventor of the word "dwarves". --Dan
- This is explained under Dwarves (Middle-earth). Tolkien did not invent the term. (If he had invented the term, he would probably have used dwarrows.) However, he is largely responsible for reintroducing and popularizing it. Both plurals are in fairly common use today. -Aranel ("Sarah") 15:19, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
A useful convention would be to use dwarf and dwarfs to refer to real world genetically defective humans and dwarve, dwarves and dwarven to refer to fictional fantasy mythological creatures of a completely different species.
- Dwarve!!!! ...Let's try to avoid coining terms just to disambiguate here. Not really appropriate for an encyclopædia. Also, "Genetically defective"? Adam Cuerden 03:59, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
-- Dwarves is the proper plural. Old English medial "f" has a "v" sound and as such is often spelled with a V. Dwarf comes from Old English Dweorh. Dwarves is not a made up word. That's the same reason the plural for elf is elves and the same reason you have elvish although elfish is an accepted variant.
having read tolkien's biography it says that they agreed for dwarfs when writing the dictionary, but he dissagreed so there are no "dwarfs" in LoTR...maybe write both?
[edit] In Tyre, selon Hebrew scriptures?
Where in Hebrew scriptures are these dwarfs mentioned?
I don't think it is in Hebrew scriptures, per se, but in some other writings. That's how it seemed to me.
[edit] Changes as of today
Have removed the section on Eragon, since it was full of jargon and, with the exception of them living out in the open, fairly similar to Tolkien (as well, the character list for the Inheritance Trilogy only lists one dwarf). I dunno, feel free to grab it from the older versions and add it in if you know the books well enough to point out what makes Eragon dwarves noteworthy. )The Artemis Fowl section, a book I'm more familiar with, was missing the fact that Colfer's dwarves eat the dirt they tunnel through for food, so it's not unlikely that that section missed the key points as well) Have also removed an odd note at the end of the Artemis Fowl section that seemed to be a lost quote related to another series entirely, since it contradicted that which came before, for one thing. As the series was only given by the acronym RTS, I was unable to do anything with it.
I have expanded out a section on how Tolkien influenced those who came after, I hope without introducing POV. I adjusted the Artemis Fowl section, which managed to miss the key aspect of Eoin Colfer's dwarves that makes them unique. I also added a section for links to stories with Major roles for Dwarves. Linked Hobbit but not LotR, since I didn't think Gimli by himself made... ...I've forgotten Moria. I'll add LotR in to there as a link.
To do: Could use a section on Pratchett's dwarves, since Pratchett has numerious main-character dwarves, two books involving dwarven culture [Fifth elephant and Thud], and so on.
Query: Is the section on pretty female dwarves in an obscure video game worth keeping? Adam Cuerden 03:44, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] The adjective?
Dwarven, dwarvish, dwarfish - do they mean different things? When to use what? Sippan 21:40, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
They don't have different meanings (that i'm aware of). They are just variant spellings. Again this is due to the phonetics associated with medial F in English/Old English phonetics.
[edit] Drinking habits and second liver?
Recently (Revision as of 01:14, 26 May 2006), a section was added by an anonymous user that stated "Because of there drinking habbits they developed a second liver. This is in direct relatoinship to the early beard growth ( Under age drinking WAS shuned Upon..."
This seems a bit unsubstantiated, and it's a little unclear to me how this fits into the rest of the discussion. Does this come from Swiss folklore, or from German folklore, or from Norse folklore? (These are subjects of the surrounding discussion.) It seems unlikely that the bit about the second liver comes from any folklore, since it's doubtful that the liver's role in metabolising alcohol was widely known until modern times, so that calls the whole passage into question.
Not to get ad hominem, but the fact that nearly all the other edits by this user (Special:Contributions/66.144.44.213) are blatant vandalism is not encouraging, either.
I'm new here so I'm not really familiar with the culture and mores of Wikipedia, and thus I'm not sure what the appropriate thing is to do here, but it seems to me like the section should be removed.
On the other hand, if anyone does have a reference for this, it would be of great help to me, as I'm trying to track down the origins of the 21st century image of dwarves as heavy drinkers. Delun 19:07, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
- I've removed it for now. If we can find a citable source, let's readd it then. Adam Cuerden 21:39, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Vandalism???
I may be being unduly suspicious, but I have remioved the bolded line in the following:
The dwarves had first been created and had quickened in Ymir’s flesh, and were then maggots; but now, by the decision of the gods, they got the understanding and likeness of men, but still had to dwell in the earth and in rocks. Many of the dwarves were said to be 'filthy' living in their own excrement, and hence smelling awful. Modsogner was one dwarf and Durin another.
We've had so many one-line edits of this sort that have proven to be vandalism that I think we have to be cautious. I have, however, put a message for the user in his talk page, and hope I am mistaken. Adam Cuerden 13:29, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Regarding dwarf in politics
I'm moving this because I see no connection between dwarf in politics and dwarf in fantasy fiction. If anyone cares to explain why these two should stay in the same title I'm more than willing to hear. Dwarfs in politics may belong to fantasy art, but not fantasy fiction, and further more it was a more of a political performance, than a work of art.Belphegor 666 19:26, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
- I think it's all right to have it there, but I changed the title to the more specific "Dwarves and the Orange Alternative" and removed the last sentence, which should be re-inserted after it has been edited by someone who understands the topic better than I:
- Then, in the mid-nineteen eighties, the dwarves left the city walls and began actively participating in large scale happenings organized by the Orange Alternative in the major Polish cities, aimed at ridiculing the Jaruzelski regime and breaking up the fear barrier present in the population as result of the Martial Law instauration in December 1981.
- This makes it sound like the dwarf iconography somehow sprung to life ("actively participating"?) which I strongly doubt. --Lenoxus 17:39, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] caption of the first picture
Could you translate the caption of the first picture? Doesn't look very English to me :-) ... --128.119.59.80 22:07, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
The commons translation is "But how do I get into the mountain, the gnome boy asked". I think a better translation would be "But how do I get into the mountain?" the dwarven child asked. - "gnome" and "dwarf" evidently are near-synonymous in Dutch and related languages.
The artist is Swedish, of course. Adam Cuerden talk 22:21, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Dwarfs in Ancient Rome
This section seems to refer to historical dwarfs, while the article is clearly about mythical creatures.
[edit] "pop out of holes in the ground!" and C.S. Lewis
The paragraph that mentions C.S. Lewis and the quote from Gimli in the movie that dwarves "pop out of holes in the ground! which is of course ridiculous" should probably be edited for unfounded personal theorizing. It states the possibility that Tolkien was ribbing CSL on this point. However, Tolkien never penned those lines -- Peter Jackson and co. did, so there is really no foundation for such a theory. -- Erusse estelinya 17:55, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Duergar (in mythology and folklore)
- In Northumbria, dwarves are oftened called Duergar or Dwergar. The most famous example of these Northumbrian dwarves are the The Dwarves of Simonside.([1]). The word 'Duergar is similar to the Norse word Dvergar, meaning dwarves.
I recommend deleting this, or at least heavily qualifying it--unless someone can find out more about Grice's sources and methodology. As far as I can see, duergar is not just similar to Old Norse dvergar; it is the Old Norse dvergar! In old manuscripts and early printed books, the letters u and v were used interchangeably. There is no way that duergar can have been an ancient borrowing from Old Norse, since it shows no sign of the regular sound changes which would have affected it over the course of English history. Compare the development of Old English dweorg to dwarf, and its plural dweorgas to the now obsolete dwarrows. An Old Norse borrowing from the Viking Age would be expected to have have developed identically to its native English cognate. Other grounds for suspicion include the arbitrary use of u (rather than w) which betrays the fact the word has either been introduced in the 19th or early 20th centuries from written Old Norse, or else transcribed by someone familiar with the Old Norse word with the intention of making it look similar to the Old Norse word. The preservation of an Old Norse plural and its reinterpretation as singular is highly improbable too, considering that the Old Norse masculine nominative plural was correctly interpreted and replaced by its Old English equivalent in every other instance that I'm aware of:
My guess is that Grice (1944), who seems to be the immediate source for the word, simply took it from Brewer. Note that the entry in Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable referred to at the link above makes no mention of "Northumbria"; he takes his details from Norse mythology and Germanic folklore generally. The Morpeth Gazette story from 1889 has no mention of this duergar; it speaks only of dwarfs and bogles:
These points apply also to the articles Duergar (folklore) and Simonside Hills.
Dependent Variable 23:02, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Politically Incorrect?
When you search 'dwarf' on wikipedia, the first thing that should pop up is dwarfism. Their tiny little hearts would be broken when they find out they're being mistaken for ugly short people with massive beards. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.241.24.120 (talk) 23:45, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Artemis Fowl
Why is there a whole paragraph on this serie's take on dwarves? It looks like advertisement more than anything as it is, somewhat reminiscent of the sneaky Stanek references.
ErrantB (talk) 16:02, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Markus Heitz
Do you know anything about Markus Heitz? I dont know that his books (in germany Die Zwerge, in englisk Dwarves) are translate to english. But its about dwarves so it will be here...193.179.148.214 (talk) 06:49, 20 December 2007 (UTC) (in czech wikipedia Gogasmen)
[edit] Possible Origins
The section on Possible Origins is almost wholly speculation. It has no evidence to back it up, and is comprised of theories not useful to the article. I have removed it. 172.189.199.159 (talk) 13:50, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
- Wouldn't the obvious origins of dwarfs in history be based on real life humans suffering from Dwarfism? JayKeaton (talk) 06:03, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Dwarves in role-playing games
The section on dwarves in role-playing games is just a list of dwarf appearances and their characteristics. This should be just a list of notable games, and it may be worth having it as its own page. This section in this article should make purely general statements about modern games, such as dwarf prominence, prevalence, and characteristics.172.189.199.159 (talk) 20:45, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Female dwarves
Is it worth having an image for female dwarves? 172.189.199.159 (talk) 20:45, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
