Talk:Dwarf (Middle-earth)

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Contents 1 Untitled discussion 2 Moved back 3 Female Dwarves beards 4 Move 5 Seven Hammers? 6 Nordic-Jewish-Grimm dwarves 7 Copyrighted images 8 Dourhands 9 Fair use rationale for Image:Gimli With Axe.jpg 10 Runic Translation

[edit] Untitled discussion

"he Dwarvish language, called Khuzdûl and created by Aulë, sounds much like Hebrew, and one may draw the similarities between the Dwarves and the Jews even farther."

I am curious as to how Dwarvish is like Hebrew...as far as I recall there is very little Dwarvish in the books, and Tolkien just didn't create a full language for them. And what other similaritiess are there with "the Jews"? Adam Bishop 05:48, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)

The Dwarvish language is (IIRC) based on three-letter roots, like Hebrew and Arabic. Also, some folks think "Khazad" sounds like "Khazar". The obvious antisemitic stereotypes get in there, too. *shrug* It's overanalyzing, is what it is. --FOo 15:02, 20 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I've removed it from the article. Notes on how Khuzdul resembles Hebrew may be at place in Khuzdul, not here. And we don't want any comparisons between Dwarves and Jews: gem hoarding, beards, etc.—could get nasty fast. — Jor 15:13, 20 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Tolkien's own opinion on the matter is now in the article. The letter was to the person in charge of the Lord of the Rings radio dramatization, and the forn of the reply, especially the part about accents, does make me think that the question was about similarities between Khuzdul and Hebrew. — No-One Jones (talk) 15:18, 20 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Removed to Khuzdul. Speculation on how Dwarves resemble Jews is not wanted here I believe, as it was mainly a philological musing by JRRT. — Jor 15:19, 20 Jan 2004 (UTC)

No quarrel with that. — No-One Jones (talk) 15:20, 20 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Did Tolkien ever really call them dwarrows? --Aranel 01:39, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)

After looking it up in Letters and Appendix F, I've updated the article with information the term dwarrows and the origin of the term dwarves. Dwarrows is never used to refer to Tolkien's Dwarves, so I removed it from the opening of the article and did not put it in bold text. --[[User:Aranel|Aranel ("Sarah")]] 21:22, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

It is used in proper names, such as "Dwarrowdelf" as an alternate name for Moria.

[edit] Moved back

Moved back to the plural, for consistency with other articles. (And for the vast majority of links) [[User:Anárion|Image:Anarion.png]] 22:02, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Female Dwarves beards

Just what Book and comment states that female Dwarves have beards? I've read they're so alike in appearance does not mean they do have them. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 143.200.225.101 (talk • contribs) .

"For the Naugrim have beards from the beginning of their lives, male and female alike." - The War of the Jewels, The Later Quenta Silmarillion: Of the Naugrim and the Edain

--CBD _☎ ^✉ 15:59, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Ok, in that same section, there is stated a belief among men that dwarves spring from stone, or such. That appears to come from the movie, and thus is non-canonical. I doubt any Tolkein book mentions that (unless perhaps an appendix?), but encourage someone to similarly name a Tolkein source if they can.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.19.179.224 (talk • contribs)

I remember reading it in Lord of the Rings. - Mike Rosoft 12:54, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

The relevant quote LOTR quote (from Talk:Bearded lady):

"It was said by Gimli that there are few dwarf-women, probably no more than a third of the whole people. They seldom walk abroad except at great need. They are in voice and appearance, and in garb if they must go on a journey, so like to dwarf-men that the eyes and ears of the other peoples cannot tell them apart. This has given rise to the foolish opinion among Men that there are no dwarf-women and that the Dwarves 'grow out of stone.'" ROTK Appendix A III Durin's folk.

Mike Rosoft 10:25, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

And you can add to this that, in The Hobbit, Bilbo reflects that he couldn't be mistaken for a dwarf, even in a dwarven cloak, because he had no beard. If female dwarves in male dwarf clothes cannot easily be distinguished from males, but the beardlessness of hobbits means they can, it seems pretty clear the females must have beards. Daibhid C 19:40, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Seven Hammers?

I'm fairly sure seven magical hammers were never mentioned in the Silmarillion, much less hammers which could summon Aule(!), and as far as I can tell this is the only page on the net that mentions such items. Looks a bit bogus to me.

(I guess it might fit with some of the weird stuff in earlier drafts of Tolkien's tales, but in that case I don't think it would be canon...)

VERY Bogus. I can't even recall such a reference in HoME (History of Middle Earth) by Christopher Tolkien. Without verification, this needs to go.

02:58, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I have taken the liberty of removing the section entitled "Seven Hammers", but I encourage the original contributor to submit a reference, if it exists.

Sincerely, --Thrombur 08:08, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nordic-Jewish-Grimm dwarves

It's clear from Letters that JRR intended dwarves to 'represent' Jewish people, and based their language and characteristics largely upon medieval accounts of them. The fact they take their names from the Eddas does not mean they take any other influence from the Norse - indeed Tolkien says that they took their names from the people the live amongst, and kept their true names hidden and that the Dwarf names given would be Mannish in origin (the long essay in HoME Vol 12 "Of Dwarves and Men"). Of course, Tolkien knew the Eddas and there are Dwarves in them, are there some sources that the Eddas Dwarves provided anything more than just the names? --Davémon (talk) 19:22, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

I would guess the basic concepts of dwarves as creatures of the earth, treasure-hoarders, skilled in metalworking, mining and smithing, at least - though their shorter size seems not to derive from the Eddas but from later versions, if the Wiki article on Norse dwarves is accurate. I'd say JRR used the dwarves of myth/fairytales as templates first and defined them with "Jewish" traits and a "Semitic-ish" language, instead of taking stereotypes of Jews first and making them smaller, giving them axes, etc. That's what I meant with one influence "predating" another - poorly worded. So that's why I would mention mythical/traditional dwarves first. Uthanc (talk) 12:07, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

What is clear is that Tolkien drew a triangle between Fairytale - Medieval Jewish - Eddas and called that triangle "dwarves". Which influences came to him first - I don't know, and the sources I have to hand don't say. Your guesses, though reasonable, are unfortunately just guesses without the sources to confirm them. My rationale for putting the Jews first is that the sources I have (chiefly Tolkiens Letters and the HoTH), put greater emphasis on the Jewish nature of the Dwarves rather than the Eddaic (to which I can only find references to the names being taken) or the Grimm. The aspects of being smaller along with mining and metal etc. are found firmly in Grimm, which is more likely to be Tolkiens first contact with dwarves. Although this is WP:OR: the dwarf instruments in The Hobbit are entirely consistent with those used in traditional Jewish music - along with the number of singers / musicians (plus one for bad luck!), as is the habit of singing through the night. Traditional Icelandic music (Iceland being the home of the Eddas) on the other hand, has a significantly smaller range of instruments, neither of which appear in the book. Although I think this puts even more weight on the Jewish nature of the dwarves, it is WP:OR and feel free to discount it. On another note, I find the first thread on this talk page very concerning in the editorial precedent it is trying to set, and I may be over-compensating for the "don't mention the Jews" wp:bias. Either way I think I've put my case forward as well as I can, and will leave it to you or others to represent the various weights of the influences as they see fit. --Davémon (talk) 14:06, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the verifiability concerns (the more sources the better) and the singing and instruments - interesting. I've been thinking about the development/evolution of the dwarves, and how it might relate to this. By The Hobbit, they're already "semi-Jewish" but what about earlier stages? The dwarves in The Book of Lost Tales aren't dispossessed exiles (no Erebor or Moria to be displaced from). No Semitic dwarf-language at this point either. One major source for the Jewish connection concerns The Hobbit only, if I'm correct. By the time Tolkien wrote about the Jewish connection himself (Letters) the newer conception was well-established, continued in LOTR. I believe the "Diaspora" element and the Semitic-styled language is crucial to the "Jewish connection", but before those elements came to be... in short, I still think Norse and fairytale dwarves should probably be mentioned first. Perhaps we could mention those first but add "particularly" to "inspired by medieval Jewish...". Of course, the Norse dwarves are already bearded smiths/metalworkers and makers of treasures. OR, but the story of the Necklace of the Dwarves in BOLT seems loosely inspired by the story of the Brísingamen. Uthanc (talk) 15:17, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

The History of the Hobbit reprints the draft text of The Hobbit, but the extensive notes and commentary encompases its relationship to the rest of Tolkiens work, including it's thematic and textual links to the earlier and later Silmarillion etc. I highly recommend it. The order should, of course, reflect the history of the textual development not the weight of influences, unless we change the title of the section to "influences". Incidently Rateliffs only other Dwarf/Jewish comment mentions that the traditional Jewish calendar and the Dwarven calendar begin at approximately the same time (late autumn), in opposition to the medieval calendar that begins in spring - and again this first occurs with The Hobbit. --Davémon (talk) 16:09, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Were medieval Jews really considered warlike? --Error (talk) 01:06, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

No. Rateliff cites 1 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees, Book of Joshua, Book of Judges as potentially being Tolkiens source for the Dwarves warlike behaviour. The books of Joshua and Judges appear in the Vulgate, and it is my opinion is that it would have been a strong influence on the medieval christians opinion of the Jews. Hopefully the rewording clarifies this, and disentangles my opinion from what the source actually says. Davémon (talk) 16:09, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Copyrighted images

With several recent revisions, all screenshots from Peter Jackson's movies were removed from the article, first by CharlesMartel, who completely deleted "Adaptations" section, and then by Davémon, with a claim that they "fall out of scope of a limited number of web-resolution screenshots for identification and critical commentary on the film" ([1]). I suppose he referred to the inappropriate image of Narsil which was indeed useless here, and so reinstasted "Adaptations" section, adding some more commentary (any further input would be appreciated). I have also removed CJRT's map of Beleriand – its inclusion into Beleriand article is debatable, and here it is surely prohibited - and the image of a "generic" dwarf – the author of the latter intended no connection with Tolkien's works, and its usage here would be just "unencyclopedic".

I have also rearranged sections, grouping together all in-universe material and moving "Concept and creation" to follow it. The reasons I have already described in a similar discussion that I raised at the WikiProject Middle-earth Standards talk page; if you disagree, please discuss it there. Súrendil (talk) 16:44, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Concept and creation really must come first, it's the only section with any real world context which is what the article should be about re: wp:fict. There is precedent in FA's on fictional subjects to put this type of content before describing the fiction. P.S. Very happy with the new low-res dwarves image from the movies. --Davémon (talk) 14:30, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Dourhands

I have heard of a nation, or house of Dwarves called Dourhands. It says in the book there are only seven nations, all of which are mentioned. Is Dourhand another name for a dwarf house, like Durin's Folk/Longbeards? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.90.98.214 (talk) 20:59, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Gimli With Axe.jpg

Image:Gimli With Axe.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 23:42, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Runic Translation

has anyone a copy of the 'Rune to letter' translations of the runes pictured?
it might be useful/interesting to some.
i have a copy in a book, but no means to upload...

Ashspirit (talk) 21:10, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

There is a version on the Cirth page, which could be improved but does the job. --Davémon (talk) 09:18, 9 April 2008 (UTC)