Talk:Duval County Public Schools

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[edit] Listing of all schools?

Okay, so someone has added a list of all the middle schools. I suppose the high schools will be next, and the elementary after that. Is this really necessary? We have a link to the DCSB website, and they have listings of all the schools there. I recommend deleting this table from this article. Unschool (talk) 01:48, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

It is recommended that school articles begin as sections of district articles where they can be discussed in context of the other schools in the district until there is sufficient sourced material to justify a break-out article. If necessary, a break-out article could be made on Middle schools in Duval County Public Schools but I don't think that is merited at this time. DoubleBlue (Talk) 02:06, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, but that's presuming that the article on the middle schools even meets WP:NOTE. I not only think that such an article fails to meet noteworthiness, I think it's not noteworthy enough to include in this article. Furthermore, I think these listings will give a hopelessly cluttered look to this article.Unschool (talk) 13:07, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
The table is a good idea. And yes, tables for high schools and elementary schools would be fine also. A school would start its life in the table; if there is enough encyclopaedic material it gets its own section; and if notability can be established then it gets a page.
It is a matter of personal preference but I would be inclined to put more interesting information in the table. One suggestion, would be to replace the 6th/7th/8th/Lunch columns with Grades/Established/Principal/Mascot. TerriersFan (talk) 21:58, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed deletion

I believe that the table on the middle schools should be deleted. While I very much appreciate the efforts of DoubleBlue to increase the aesthetics of the listing by making it into a table, I still believe that a listing of all the schools in this manner fails to meet WP:NOTE, and I am confident that most editors on this project would agree. I'm still open to points that others may make, but at this time I'm leaning towards the deletion of the table. Unschool (talk) 19:34, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

WP:N is for articles not individual entries in an article; they just need to be sourced. DoubleBlue (Talk) 21:13, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
This is disingenuous. While technically WP:NOTE does not apply, the fact is, there are unwritten notability standards for content within articles. I think we could both agree that, even if I could source it, it would not be noteworthy to indicate in this article that the current superintendent spent 23 months as principal at Stanton, 17 months as principal of Terry Parker, and 36 months as principal at Wolfson. It just would be too insignificant to include. (I thought about looking up the actual schools and length of stay figures and actually placing them in the article, but am constrained by WP:POINT.)
Now I am not saying that this table is as insignificant as my example above. I am merely pointing out that your argument is fallacious. Somewhere there is a line beyond which some verifiable facts lack sufficient weight for inclusion. You and I may honestly disagree on which side of that line that this table falls, but surely we can also agree that there is such a line, I hope. Unschool (talk) 00:02, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
I agree that I suppose we are not all that far apart in our views but my reply above was simply to note that WP:N does not apply and that statement is perfectly true. Your statement saying the table should be deleted since it fails to meet WP:N is disingenuous and fallacious. Your rationale above appealed to a guideline that doesn't apply.
School boards exist to run schools so I think it is perfectly encyclopedic to list those schools and, even better, compare them. If individual schools have enough reliably sourced content, then they can even have their own sub-articles. There is already a rather useless navigational template at the bottom of this article listing all the schools in the board. Why not replace it with something more useful and informative to the reader? I favour TerriersFan's suggestions above as well on changing some of the headings. DoubleBlue (Talk) 02:35, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Look, here's my suggestion. There are hundreds if not thousands of Wikipedia articles that are lists. There's even such a thing as a "Featured List". Why do these exist? I believe that it is because, in part, that it is recognized that they can clutter up the text of a normal article. Currently, with just the middle schools, this hasn't totally destroyed the readability of this article. But the logical conclusion of this process will do just that. A listing of what—150 schools?—simply does not fit in with any article's "flow". So why not just create a new page—List of Duval County Public Schools—and place these tables there? Unschool (talk) 03:05, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
That would be fine but, to be honest, my only interest was in merging James Weldon Johnson Middle School and creating an appropriate place where other school information could be placed and permitted to expand till ready for break-out. DoubleBlue (Talk) 21:45, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
At the moment there is no need. If the tables expand so much that they overbalance the page then we can look at a breakout. At present the page looks fine and splintering the information, for no good reason, is pointless. TerriersFan (talk) 22:41, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Well, clearly the point at which "the tables expand so much that they overbalance the page" is a subjective matter. This is a relatively short article, and in my personal opinion, that point has already been reached. In your opinion, it has not. Given that you acknowledge that ultimately such a page is a reasonable step to take, I see no good reason not to do it now. I'm not saying that it has to happen now, I'm saying that at least as much subjective good would be served by creating the separate list as by not. I'm not saying that it has to be my way, I'm merely asking for acknowledgement that if the article remains this way, it is because it satisfies your personal tastes, not any particular wiki-standard.Unschool (talk) 01:05, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
Well, since DoubleBlue appears to have no objection, and as TerriersFan's objective is based only on his personal aesthetic, I think I'm just going to move this table out of here and create an article, List of Duval County Public Schools to place it in. Appropriately linked, of course. I shall wait two or three days, just in case someone wants to comment. Unschool (talk) 07:04, 30 May 2008 (UTC)