Talk:Dutch nationality law
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[edit] Birth in the Netherlands
There is no evidence that birth in the Netherlands to non-Dutch parents confers Dutch citizenship. For example, this page from the Netherlands Embassy in New Zealand. Unless an official reference is forthcoming I will revert this information in a few days. JAJ 04:52, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
- The Dutch law has a kind of double ius soli . See article 3, member 3 of the law:
- Nederlander is het kind van een vader of moeder die ten tijde van de geboorte van het kind zijn of haar hoofdverblijf heeft in Nederland, de Nederlandse Antillen of Aruba en die zelf geboren is als kind van een vader of moeder die ten tijde van zijn of haar geboorte in een van die landen hoofdverblijf had, mits het kind ten tijde van zijn geboorte zijn hoofdverblijf heeft in Nederland, de Nederlandse Antillen of Aruba.
- This translates into:
- Dutch citizen is the child of a father or mother who at the time of the birth of the child has his or her main residence in the Netherlands, the Dutch Antilles or Aruba and who (him/her)self was born as a child of a father or mother who, at the time of his or her birth, had main residence in one of these countries, providing that the child, at the time of his or her birth, had main residence in the Netherlands, the Dutch Antilles or Aruba.
- The source quoted above - an embassy - is not complete on all details of the law. The text of the law is generally the only reliable source for information on Dutch law, and one should always doubt summaries. The full text of the law is available at http://www.st-ab.nl/wetten/0252_Rijkswet_op_het_Nederlanderschap_RWN.htm or at the official government site http://wetten.overheid.nl/cgi-bin/deeplink/law1/title=Rijkswet%20op%20het%20Nederlanderschap . See also this less reliable source http://www.expatica.com/actual/article.asp?subchannel_id=6&story_id=128 .
[edit] Special regulations
Is it not possible that the Dutch nationality is granted by a royal decree as in the the case of Maxima? Daimanta 11:18, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Dutch nationality is always granted (in respect to option and naturalization procedures) by the decision of the king (or: queen). tgeorgescu
I want to make the following edit on the Dutch_nationality_law page: tgeorgescu
- where renunciation of the applicant's existing nationality would cost too much, in respect to his/her income. This must be demonstrated with proof of income and proof of consulary fees to be paid in case of renunciation, specific for his/her own case or with general specifications of such consulary fees for every citizen of the country in which he/she is a national of. Note: As a rule of thumb, if that sum of money is larger than your income for two months, then you have a right to keep your nationality of origin. Loans do not count as income. tgeorgescu
This is proven if you consult http://wetten.overheid.nl , then search for Nederlanderschap, then choose Regeling verkrijging en verlies Nederlanderschap, and read (in Dutch language) Chapter II, Section III, Article 6, paragraph 1.d. tgeorgescu
Paragraph 2 of the same article says that if one shows objective reasons (whatever the Dutch authorities are able, if requested, to recognize as objective reasons, e.g. taking care of one's sick parents in country of origin or whatever), then he/she is exempt from the obligation to rennounce origin nationality. tgeorgescu
Such requests have to be made before signing the declaration that you renounce your nationality of origin, and then the clerk overwrites with black the text "I agree to renounce..." and writes with black on the formulary "I don't agree with renouncing to my nationality of origin, as provided by law as exception ............., and my reasons are ................" tgeorgescu
Now you get a feeling like in that film with Asterix and Obelix, wherein they fight the Roman bureaucracy with inventing a fictive directive. Only, the Dutch laws are for real, that's the difference. Check it for yourself. tgeorgescu
Further, I find erroneous the following comment: tgeorgescu
"Local expat bulletin boards, though, say that the immigration ministry has largely undermined these exceptions, either by imposing barriers so high that no one reaches them, or by using secondary obstacles to prevent would-be applicants from getting Dutch nationality." tgeorgescu
Even if it is true that immigration/naturalization rules have become harsher, my reasons are:
First, it is the duty of every individual who requests naturalization to fully inform himself/herself of the laws in application. The site http://ind.nl is full with information in this respect, and you have to know level 4 Dutch (NT2-2, not as high level as one might think) in order to understand the nuances of that literature. tgeorgescu
Second, if you're in doubt about applicable laws, do consult a lawyer. Third, if you cannot afford it, do consult the site http://wetten.overheid.nl and read everything you find when searching for Nederlanderschap. tgeorgescu
Fourth, consult the site of the Dutch Ministry of Foregin Affairs, it has info in English language about Dutch nationality. The link is http://www.minbuza.nl/en/welcome/DutchCitizens,dutch_nationality tgeorgescu
If you want the help of the state (or community) in this respect, the solution is very simple: make an appointment at city (community) hall with the naturalization official and ask him/her all the questions you may want to ask before requesting naturalization. You may also call (by phone) the department of Civil Affairs of your community (city hall). All these clerks are paid from taxpayers' money to answer your questions, and you simply ask them to do their job for which they are paid. tgeorgescu
But, hey, that's not all: the IND has a phone line, 10 eurocent per minute, excluding mobile costs, the number is 0900-1234561 (you may only call this number from the Netherlands, as far as I know). Ask them every question you might think of, they are paid to answer your questions. In the Netherlands, everybody has the right to politely put questions like "What if I would to this?" or "When it is the best moment to fill in my request?" Your imagination is the limit in asking such questions. Taxpayers pay for such services, it is up to you to use them. Besides, you don't need to talk Dutch, you may also talk English, German, French, Spanish, they have clerks who talk such languages (eventually even Arabic or Turkish). The state pays translators for whatever language which can be called by phone by doctors or lawyers or government services just to translate it for you. tgeorgescu
i would like more information about "Exemptions to the requirement to renounce foreign citizenship" if i cohabit with a dutch citizen, can i get to keep my nationality? or is marriage/registered partnership a must?
Properly reading Kingdom's Law on Dutch Nationality, Art.1 paragraph 2 (points a and b) and Art. 9 paragraph 3 point d, it follows that: tgeorgescu
(i) in respect to this law, registered partnership (or even three-years long cohabitation with a Dutch partner, for other laws grant you retroactively partnership status after living together, as in unregistered partenerial cohabitation, with an unmarried Dutch person for more than three years -- this boils down to: after three years living together you have same rights as a registered partner) counts as marriage, with the exception of provision of Article 15A, point a. This is an article that only matters for citizens of countries which have signed, ratified the Convention on the Reduction of Cases of Multiple Nationality and on Military Obligations in Cases of Multiple Nationality (Strasbourg, 6.V.1963), never denounced it and made no reservations about art. 1 of the Convention, which says that by getting citizenship of a similar party to this treaty, the origin nationality is automatically lost. The parties to this agreement (which made no such reservations) are: Netherlands, Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Luxembourg and Norway (according to http://www.minbuza.nl/en/welcome/DutchCitizens,dutch_nationality/i_am_a_dutch_citizen_and_would_like_to_acquire_anothe.html ). So, if you are no citizen of these countries, you do not need to worry about art. 15A, point a. tgeorgescu
(ii) marriage with a Dutch national entitles you with the right to keep your nationality of origin, see Art. 9, paragraph 3, point d of the same law. tgeorgescu
(iii) since registered partnership or more than three years cohabitation with a Dutch national gives you in respect to this law the same rights as marriage (for, in the meaning of this law "marriage" also means partnership, see Art. 1, paragraph 2, points a and b, with the exception mentioned above for Art. 15A, point a), partnership entitles you to keep your origin nationality except if you're Austrian, Belgian, Danish, Luxembourgese, or Norwegian subject. tgeorgescu
(iv) this boils down to: if you count as partner of a Dutch national, and if you're not Austrian, Belgian, Danish, Luxembourgese or Norwegian, you have the legal right to keep your origin nationality. You loose this legal right if you sign an agreement that you are committed to renounce your origin nationality, but nobody in the Netherlands may force you to sign such an agreement. It is your own free decision and you have to tell the clerk in advance that you are entitled by law to be exempt from the provisions of the general rule of renouncing your origin nationality (this general rule holds if and only if that could reasonably be done by you, and only if you have no legal right to be exempt from this rule). tgeorgescu
See also (for speakers of Dutch language): http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationaliteit
[edit] Discrimination against women
I would like to comment on: "Laywers are trying to persuade the Dutch government that Art. 27 RWN discriminates against women and should therefore be revoked." Tgeorgescu 17:24, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
That discriminative article was revoked. What the lawyers ask is that the Dutch state should reconsider the past consequences (that is, before 1985) of such article. This is no wonder, since no Dutch married woman had legal responsibility (the husband decided in her name in every commercial and legal activity) till 1956. The Netherlands is one of the most conservative European countries in respect to work participation of women. It seems that Dutch women do not buy the argument that working double shifts would be a form of emancipation. It is an unwritten norm that a Dutch woman should choose between raising her children at home or making a professional career. A Dutch minister did not marry because she considered that "It is not proper for a stateswoman to become married". That was in the 60's or 70's. Tgeorgescu 17:24, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Definitely, the Dutch women do not (statistically seen) buy the argument that working double shifts would be a form of emancipation. This is empirically proven by a research done jointly by the Dutch feminist magazine Opzij and Dutch women's magazine Margriet. See http://www.nrc.nl/media/article790042.ece/Vrouw_is_niet_ambitieus Tgeorgescu 22:01, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
That minister was Marga Klompé, cf. http://reporter.kro.nl/uitzendingen/2006/1011_marga_klompe/intro.aspx Tgeorgescu (talk) 08:13, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] A short overview of the Dutch laws in respect to nationality/nationalities
Regeling verkrijging en verlies Nederlanderschap (Regulation about obtaining and loosing Dutch nationality)
Chapter II, Section II, Art. 5, paragraphs 1 - 6 (after option/naturalization, one has to be present at the option/naturalization ceremony in order to become a Dutchman or a Dutchwoman)
Chapter II, Section III, Art. 6, paragraph 1 (letter from a to h) and paragraph 2 (exceptions to the rule of renouncing the nationality of origin, when becoming a Dutchman/Dutchwoman)
Rijkswet op het Nederlanderschap (The Law of the Kingdom about Dutch nationality)
art. 7 and 8 (requirements for option/naturalization)
art. 9, paragraph 1 (loosing Dutch nationality)
art. 9 paragraph 3 letter d and art. 1 paragraph 2 (being married/registered partnership with a Dutchman/Dutchwoman is equal to being excepted from the rule of renouncing one's nationality of origin; living together with a Dutchman/Dutchwoman for three years also, because it is considered the same thing as registered partnership)
art. 15 paragraph 1 letter a (you lose your Dutch nationality if you accept by your own choice another nationality); letter c (for people with multiple nationality, living ten years outside Dutch territories is equal to loosing the Dutch nationality; there are some exceptions to it and it can be prevented if you renew your Dutch passport timely); letter d (the cancellation of the naturalization decision)
art. 15 paragraph 2, letters a, b and c (exceptions from losing the Dutch nationality when getting another nationality through your own choice; it is of application since 1 April 2003)
art. 15A (exceptions for the exceptions mentioned in art. 15)
art. 16 (comparable to art. 15, it applies to underage persons)
art 16A (comparable to art. 15A, it applies to underage persons)
Besluit verkrijging en verlies Nederlanderschap (Decision about getting and losing Dutch nationality)
art. 60a and art. 60b (after option/naturalization, one becomes a Dutchman/Dutchwoman through participating in the option/naturalization ceremony; there are some exceptions to this proviso; it works retroactively since His Majesty the King/Queen signed the option/naturalization decision).
See:
http://wetten.overheid.nl/cgi-bin/deeplink/law1/title=Rijkswet%20op%20het%20Nederlanderschap
Disclaimer: This is simply my own opinion. It does not constitute legal advice! In doubt, check with your Dutch consulate/embassy or hire a Dutch lawyer. Tgeorgescu 11:05, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Citizen or subject?
In kingdoms, people are not called "citizens", but they are called "subjects", because they are subjected to the king/queen. Tgeorgescu 20:53, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
The Dutch Fundamental Law, art. 2, paragraph 1 says: "The law decides who is Dutch". So, it contains neither the word subject nor the word citizen. See http://wetten.overheid.nl/cgi-bin/deeplink/law1/title=GRONDWET Tgeorgescu 20:53, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
Then, the law on nationality is called "The Law of the Kingdom on Dutchness". At art. 1, paragraph 1, letter f. of this law, it is mentioned the word subject (Dutch: onderdaan). Tgeorgescu 20:53, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
So, proper translations would be: being a Dutch/Dutchperson/Dutchman/Dutchwoman, Dutchness (which is just too weird for English), nationality, but not citizenship. E.g., I am a subject of the Kingdom of the Netherlands and a citizen (Dutch: burger) of the community (Dutch: gemeente) Zwolle. I am also a citizen of Romania. (The funny thing is that I was a citizen of Zwolle five or six years before becoming a Dutch subject.) Tgeorgescu 20:53, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Convention on multiple nationality
The text of the Convention on the Reduction of Cases of Multiple Nationality and on Military Obligations in Cases of Multiple Nationality (Strasbourg, May 6, 1963) is on: http://conventions.coe.int/Treaty/en/Treaties/Html/043.htm Tgeorgescu 21:34, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
