Talk:Dutch alphabet

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on 29 May 2007. The result of the discussion was keep.

Contents

[edit] name of letters

I'll need know how man calls the y, simply as [i] or as [ej].
and ÿ is call lange ij?
name for letter u is [u] or [y]?
and q, man calls it as [ku] or [ky].

I think y is called [ej], u is [y], q is [ku], am I right? However I can't imagine the spelling for ÿ.

The letters b, c, d, g, h, j, k, p, q, t, v, w are called like [be:], [ce:], etc., with a large vowel? I think they are pronounced more large than the letters f, l, m, n, r, s, x, z.

It'll be interesting to put on this remarks in this article. Really I am developing another article in Catalan Wikipedia and I'll want to know these data. THANKS
—Ludor 19:14, 21 August 2005 (UTC)



In Dutch language many diphthong vowel-combinations are used (for example: ie, oe, ui, ei, ij, but also oo, aa, uu and ee are different from pronouncing the single vowle twice).
Two of them sound like Y. The ij is called "lange ij" (long y) and the ei is called "korte ij" (short y). The character Y is called "Griekse ij" (Greek Y), "i-grec" or "ypsilon".
ÿ is not used in Dutch, it has no special name (but sometimes in handwriting the combination of ij will look like ÿ)
The y indeed usually appears in words borrowed from other languages. The y/ij confusion appears, but as far as I know officially the y is the 25th letter of the alphabet and the ij is seen as a combination like ui, oe, ie and ei.
I am not used to phonetics, so I find it hard to answer your other questions.
- Wouter, 30 October 2006

"Y" (as a separate letter) is most commonly pronounced as "Griekse ij" (Greek y), "i-grec" (from French) or informally simply "ij". Ÿ does not exist, "lange ij" is used to distinguish the diphthong "ij" from "ei" (which carry the same pronunciation but a different spelling). U is called IPA y, not u (which is spelled "oe" in Dutch, as in "voet"). Q is called IPA ky, not ku (koe, which would mean "cow", haha). Salaskan 18:34, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] IJ and Ÿ

In French Wikipedia man wrote:

The cluster ij (graph : IJ/ij) is considered as a whole letter and it is collated after the letter i. Into the past, in certain regions, it was wrote with or without trema (graph : Ÿ/ÿ)

Here it is not write as that. Where is it right?
—Ludor 01:27, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

ÿ has never been an acceptable variant for ij. However in old versions of Dutch ij was indeed written as y or i. The Afrikaans language still uses y where Dutch uses ij.
As for collation, this all depends on where you look. When ij is treated as a single letter, it is either collated on its own after x, or combined with y (after x). When treated as i+j, it is collated under i. Jordi·✆ 05:44, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Clarity

IJ is sometimes treated as a single letter indeed (e.g. with capitalisation and word games), but is never given a place in the alphabet. The Dutch alphabet is the standard Latin alphabet, and children are taught at school that the alphabet consists of 26 letters. The current article is quite confusing, as it says that the Dutch alphabet has 27 letters according to some, but it is always considered to have 26 letters by native speakers. I think native speakers create the language... Anyway, I think it should be noted in the article that IJ is generally not treated as a separate character, but rather as a special kind of digraph (which is capitalised together, filled in one square in word puzzles and letter separations, etc). Salaskan 18:55, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

I disagree... in elementary school I was taught the alpabet ends with x, ij, z. The y was introduced later as being a letter used in foreign words like 'baby'. And every Dutchman or -woman who recites the alphabet ends with x, ij, z and never ever with x, i-grec, z. That the alphabet consists of 26 letters, that's a thing I do agree with. Richard 12:55, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
When pronouncing the alphabet (in order), we call it ij (iks ij zet), as "Griekse ij" would be a little too long. But have you ever seen it written with "x ij z"? It's always something like this: [1][2][3] SalaSkan 19:39, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
I don't think any of these images depicts a accurate representation of a standard, (hand-) written, modern-age Dutch alphabet. The image on the page IJ (letter), though crude, is more truthful. But since you seem to be on a crusade against the letter 'ij' I remove myself from this endless discussion. Richard 09:59, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Of course I am not, the article IJ (digraph) describes the status of IJ pretty well. I just remove the info about IJ from this article as it should be included in IJ (digraph) and not here. Also, you're quite right that this image doesn't represent modern Dutch handwriting, that's why it is called "Dutch alphabet (1560)". I'll get a better image sometime soon. SalaSkan 14:55, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
In that case your remark: It's always something like this is invalid. And by the way - in my alphabet I ALWAYS write x, ij, z and never x, y, z. Richard 13:56, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
The 'letterkaart' with the alphabet how it's taught in elementary school: [4] [5]. Scoub 21:32, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
That's how "y" is generally written in handwriting. SalaSkan 16:19, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
On 24 June, Ruud Koot added a similar image to the article. Richard 09:21, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Image caption

Look, the image clearly shows either a 'ij' or a 'ÿ', I don't really care either way, but it equally clearly shows a "Y" and not a "IJ". The conclusion that because it shows "ij", it has to be "IJ", can just as easy be reversed: since it clearly shows a "Y", it has to be a "y" (or ÿ") lowercase. Either we describe what it actually shows instead of what we want it to show, or we remove it altogether for being not really enlightening (obviously). Fram 18:52, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

A capital IJ and capital Y look the same in (this form of) Dutch handwriting. (And because it cannot be a 'ÿ' (which does not occur in Dutch language) the argument can't be reversed as you claim.) —Ruud 23:09, 3 October 2007 (UTC)