Talk:Dutch (ethnic group)

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Good article Dutch (ethnic group) was a nominee for good article, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
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[edit] Article information

[edit] How to: Edit the labelled map

The map concerning the Dutch and the closest related (ethnic/linguistic) groups is a "labelled map" {{Template:Dutch labelled}}, which means the map itself, is blank and the words can be modified in the wiki to avoid the necessity of creating a new map should different concensus establish itself. For a link to the full map follow: Template:Dutch labelled, if you want to edit the basic map see Image:RasterDutch.png (but be carefull with making the map wider or more narrow as this will effect the coordinates, and hence the placements of the words.Rex 10:12, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] General comments

[edit] Spinoza

In the section on Dutch contributions to humanity, it lists Spinoza with a note explaining why he belongs in an article on the Dutch ethnic group. Apparently, the only basis for his inclusion is the fact that he spoke the language and considered himself as being part of Dutch culture (which is unsourced), and his family viewed themselves as being of Dutch ethnicity (again unsourced), but this is contradicted by the opening line which makes clear they aren't of Dutch heritage (also unsourced). For a footnote that presumably backs up the claim that Spinoza should be counted as an ethnic Dutchman, the only sourced statement is that Anne Frank (and only Anne Frank, not Spinoza too as the comment suggests) was one of the choices for a television game show about the greatest Dutch of all time (which itself apparently made no distinction between ethnic Dutch and Dutch nationals--a key distinction as laid out in the article). The last reason presented for his inclusion as is the fact that Spinoza appeared on a coin in the 1970s (though I don't doubt this, it is unsourced), and again, this is not an actual criterion for determining ethnicity, unless the Dutch mint is in the habit of discriminating on such a basis. Zarathustra919 13:18, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

This has been discussed in much detail in the archives; please check there before re-opening this. Basically the Dutch ethnicity was being born in the days of Spinoza, so the boundaries may have been a bit vague at that time. (PS we are talking about the series of banknotes designed by Ootje Oxenaar of important dutchman (Vondel fl 5,- Frans Hals fl 10,- Sweelinck fl. 25,- De Ruyter fl 100,- and Spinoza, fl 1000,- and not about coins). Arnoutf 22:37, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm not contesting his characterization as Dutch per se, but if that discussion has already taken place and reached some conclusion, then that conclusion ought to be better reflected in the quality of the sources used to reach it. If the verdict that Spinoza was ethnically Dutch was in fact based on some TV game show (which doesn't even mention Spinoza--it only mentions Anne Frank) and the unrelated incident of Spinoza appearing on Dutch coins, then you can bet I will be reopening the issue to debate. As it stands, one is led to believe that an encyclopedia (or purported encyclopedia) is reaching conclusions on such shaky and unscholarly bases, so if you think that the prior discussions reached a defensible and reasonable conclusion, then just use defensible and reasonable sources to back it up; that's all I'm saying. Zarathustra919 13:01, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
I took a look at the discussion in the archive, and i really don´t want to reenact any discussion about ethnicity. But i would like to point out that it is based on a few wrong assumptions at least in respect to Anne Frank. She never was a Dutch national. She was born German and lost German nationality in 1941 due to a law depriving all "jews" (in the Nazi definition) residing outside of Germany of the German citizenship. She then remained stateless, after the war the corresponding laws were anulled. In fact, there was a controversy about that around the mentioned TV-Show. Some people wanted her to be attributed the Dutch nationality post mortem but Dutch officials denied that. Also, basing her Dutch ethnicity on her listing in that TV show is particularily ridicilous as she was also listed in the German version of that show. I will at least erase those parts claiming she was a Dutch national, as that is fact-based (refer to the Dutch article on Anne Frank). Jonas78 05:11, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
I looked over the old discussion too, but to my mind it didn't come close to a resolution. This article acknowledges that Spinoza wasn't of Dutch heritage, so I don't understand how it can still insist on mentioning him as an example in light of Zarathustra's points about the references. And I also don't think that simply because the discussion has already taken place once before that that should be the be-all end-all of the matter; that isn't how a self-correcting encyclopedia should work. W.M. O'Quinlan 03:47, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Humorous tag

I agree with an earlier suggestion that the "Image" section should be tagged as humorous. Quoting The Xenophobe's Guide to the Dutch does not constitute a serious literature review, nor can sentences such as that about "the sacred state of being English" be defended as anything other than simple good-natured comedy. The whole section is clearly a very durable and popular attraction of Wikipedia, and a place for everyone to try out their best xenophobic one-liners - a bit like a relaxed Amsterdam pot house among the NPOV tea parties of Wikipedia - so can't we just be honest about it? Let's not pretend this is serious academic writing. Lfh 13:59, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Xenophobe and others (but not all quoted) have a lighthearted tone, but those books are indeed ettiquete/culture books, granted they use some humour (which can be removed or adapted) but it is not MAD magazine.Rex 16:13, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
The problem with this section is that it is neither humorous nor based on hard facts. The thing that remains is that it leaves a fairly negative impression of the Dutch. Also, I have not found a similar section in articles on other ethnic groups. ZuperB 16:19, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
The lack of a section on other articles should in my opinion never be a reason to remove it on others that do have one. The section isn't intented to be humerous and is based on facts. Wether they are 'hard' is personal. I myself think they do represent the majority, and with these subjects that's all a source can do. It's impossible to speak for all. As mentioned in the disclaimer above the sections.Rex 20:10, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Picture

The picture of girls in wooden shoes is about as representative for the Dutch as Uncle Sam for the USA or John Bull for the UK or a farmer carrying a baguette and a string of onions for France. A better photo should be found. Soczyczi 16:16, 16 August 2007 (UTC) In general, there are too many clogs in the article. Soczyczi 17:14, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

The word 'clog' is mentioned a mere 6 times in this entire article, in nearly all cases it is used to oppose existing views of stereotypes. The girls were chosen because they're neutral. 4 or 8 face selection will never satify everyone. This article is about Dutch etnicity, and those girls are definately Dutch. That's what matters.Rex 08:22, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
A MERE six times is four times too much, and if you would have chosen this picture of Dutch girls 'because they're neutral', you are labouring under a severe case of stereotypitis. Soczyczi 09:29, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
You have a case of clogophobia I see. Those girls are Dutch, and they're virtually anonymous, why are they stereotypical? Just girls from the 1920s. Rex 09:34, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
In fact I'm sure it's a picture from about 1950, not 1920. Very few Dutch in 1950 were wearing wooden shoes and the sort of dress these girls do, it was obsolete tradition then and even more so now. Only a tiny fraction of Dutch farmers are wearing wooden shoes - occasionally. However, many people think most Dutch are wearing them because of pictures like this. It's a caricature, like the English all would have bowler hats and the Germans all have Hitler moustaches. Soczyczi 01:35, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
I never thought the Germans wore certain moustaches..... Lederhosen is another issue though..... ;-)Arnoutf 07:23, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
You know, as opposed to bowler hats and the English (which only the upperclass gentleman wore) and the Germans and lederhosen (which only bavarians wear), the Dutch and clogs have more ground. Historically and until not so long ago, most Dutch people wore clogs. Virtually all of them, even in the cities. They are Dutch girls caught on camera, if you have an actually other proposition instead of only complaints (based on your own opinion) I'll be happy to listen.Rex 16:55, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
I think Soczyczi has a bit of a point, but so does Rex. Suggest we leave the current clog one up, until someone proposed a better alternative. Arnoutf 17:09, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
I think the picture is fine. The caption clearly states that they are wearing traditional Dutch costume. It doesn't say 'This is a picture of Dutch people, going about their daily business' - does it? As a half-dutch person I see nothing offensive in this picture, and I think there is no need to replace it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Scarletsugar (talk • contribs) 14:47, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I noticed that the picture is different from the Spanish people article, the Briton article and the German Briton article - these articles seem to follow the same pattern. I think we shouldn't find a new picture, but find a group of pictures like in the articles I listed. Onecanadasquarebishopsgate 19:51, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Argentina

Anyone know the number of the dutch descendants in argentina?? cuz the number of dutch who comes to argentina last century was about 20.000 (from netherlands) and another wave of inmigrants ((bigger maybe) comes from south afrika after the boers war.. i men afrikaneers.. I think today must be about 500.000 (or more) dutch descendants in Argentina. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shrewsbury333 (talk • contribs) 01:41, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

There certainly was immigration to Argentinia, as this [1] link proves, but I can't seem to find exact figures of the current state of affairs.Rex 17:42, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Frisian(s)

I've included 'Frisian' (well west Frisian to be precise) as a language native to the Dutch. My reasoning is that if we/the government/ethnologists see Frisians as being Dutch, and in some cases Frisians as well ... their language deserves to be mentioned, despite the fact that they are all bilingual. Rex 17:36, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Various

The section on english degoratory phrases includes 'dutch cap' for a pessarium. This name does not come from 17th century hostility, but from the fact that it was invented in the Netherlands (in the 19th century)—Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.68.220.153 (talk • contribs)

I never knew that it was invented in the Netherlands. Do you happen to have a source to back it up? If so, we'll change it right away.Rex 16:54, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] religion

the map about the religion is not complete. I think this is a better one (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Nederlandgodsdienst1849.PNG). although it's from 1849 it's still actual. when you don't mention the muslims.

greet 145.76.193.136 13:19, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

A new image based on the one you provided has been made and implemented.Rex 20:08, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Failed "good article" nomination

Per the quick-fail criteria of the GA process, any article that displays an obviously non-neutral treatment of a subject must be failed immediately, and does not require an in-depth review. I call to your attention to the section "Contribution to humanity" in particular as evidence of POV in the article. Notice that the WikiProject for ethnic groups does not recommend such a section in their structure guideline, and the GA-class article Jew lacks one. This is because a section whose sole purpose is to recount the positive events and personages of an ethnic group is a violation of NPOV. The article violates the neutrality policy in small places elsewhere with uncited passages like, "Although comparatively small in numbers, the Dutch have definitely made their mark on the world, as we know it today." Not only is the tone unencylopedic, it isn't backed by a citation (any statement likely to be challenged should be per the criteria). Other troubling places include, but are not limited to: "The image of the Dutch", with the info banner - which is a violation of basic encyclopedic standards (self-referential material is not okay) and the Manual of Style - and with "Dutch views on others". That subsection is clearly inappropriate for an encyclopedic work. If content is "not exemplary of all the Dutch", then it should not be in an article which deals with the Dutch people as a whole. Of course, if you're just trying to say that it is about Dutch stereotypes, then a regular section intro without self-reference would serve that purpose. Overall, the article has major problems which prevent me from providing a hold period, which is solely for minor fixes to what is already a basically good article. Please address these issues and thoroughly examine the GA criteria before renominating. If you feel this decision was in error, you may seek a reassessment. Thank you for your work so far, VanTucky Talk 01:42, 22 November 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Cartman

Under 'Dutch in Fiction' it is stated that Cartman from South Park is Dutch. Any source to this?--80.60.212.248 (talk) 11:18, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

q:en:Eric Cartman: My grandma's Dutch-Irish and my grandpa's lesbian, that makes me quarter lesbian!. It's a rather weak source, in my opinion. For me, having a Dutch greatgrandparent is neither sufficient nor necessary to be ethnic Dutch. Erik Warmelink (talk) 17:33, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Opinions rarely matter on Wikipedia.Rex (talk) 18:46, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
grandma is Dutch-Irish means that (at best) Cartmans Grandma is half Dutch (but possibly even less), so Cartman is 1/8 Dutch; is that ethnic Dutch. Furhtermore note the character is a cartoon character, and evenso well known for exaggeration; so we should not take the quote itself on face value. Arnoutf (talk) 18:56, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Ethnicity may well be one of the exceptions. To be ethnically Dutch someone has to feel Dutch (at least partly) and has to be considered Dutch (again, at leat partly) by other Dutch. Dutch editors to en.wikipedia.org may not be a random selection, but if almost of them share a view on what makes someone Dutch, their combined opinion does matter. Erik Warmelink (talk) 01:40, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
I consider the whole Cartman issue irrelevant trivia, as IMHO (and I am Dutch) a cartoon character (especially one of the type of Cartman) has no ethnicity whatsoever. Arnoutf (talk) 06:45, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. You could put Kyle, from the same series, into an ethnic group, as its raised as an issue pretty frequently in the show, but Cartman's character really doesn't have anything to do with being Dutch. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.208.120.38 (talk) 04:01, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Reverts from Fontys IP addresses

@145.93.125.93/145.93.123.60: For "Brazilian" vs. "Brazillian", please see a dictionary. For "ethnic group" vs. "group", without "ethnic" the sentence loses its meaning, since most Dutch people do know that most Flemings have, for example, Belgian passports and tend to live closer to the equator.

I did not re-add the addition about "moffen", because:

  1. "a German" is singular, "moffen" is plural
  2. another loose translation would be "better in soccer" Erik Warmelink (talk) 17:33, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Edit history shows that the IP adress responsible for the Moffen-edit was not 145.93.125.93/145.93.123.60, but 207.45.43.68 as seen here.Rex (talk) 18:45, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Intro

The intro was huge and I had put a "too large" tag on it, and someone improved it. However it's still not perfect, per wp:lead could someone make a lead of four paragraphs? - PietervHuis (talk) 18:18, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 1st collage

I've been making an image collage of famous and influential people. The picture of girls with wooden shoes is nice :) but I prefer to have an image collage like many other ethnic group pages do. As an example I took Russians and Georgians of 4 by 3 rows because I think it fits best (many fit in and don’t turn too small). I also tried to make the order as random as I can concerning black & white photos and the direction they look at. When chosing people I tried to select a wide variety of professions.

Whose in it might become a matter of debate in the future, but I've tried my best. First of all this page is about the Dutch group and not citizens of the Netherlands. This prevented me from using people like William the Silent and Anne Frank because they aren't ethnic dutch (although anne is for 25% I think). On the other hand, since this article also details the dutch disapora, it allowed me to use famous ethnic dutch people from abroad, like Dutch-Americans, Afrikaners or Dutch brazilians.

Currently I have , Floris V - because hes the most famous from a long long time ago (I had trouble finding people from before the 14th century), Erasmus, rembrandt (I also wanted to do van Gogh, but hes not that popular in the netherlands and his portaits stand out too much), Thomas Edison, dutch american who invented the light =), Christiaan Huygens (I wasn’t sure if I prefered Antonie van Leeuwenhoek instead, first microbiologists, but I also chose huygens because his image is better – had to chose since theres already many scientists in the collage), Franklin D. Roosevelt - might become a subject of debate since hes not fully dutch, but he was said to be proud of his dutch background,[2][3][4] was the most important dutch-american and one of the most important people in world history, and his family name is 100% dutch). Hannie Schaft - Had to add a female, she was a famous symbol for the dutch resistance and good looking, Michiel de Ruyter - famous warhero of the dutch navy, Willem Drees, Hugo Grotius - founder of International law (I wanted to have someone to do with laws because of the Court of Arbitration and stuff), Hendrik Lorentz - probably the most acomplished dutch scientist (after edison), and finally Jan van Riebeeck - first european settler of South Africa (Hes not so famous here, but he is in South Africa, and I wanted to have someone related to South Africa, on top of that I couldn't find nice pictures of Willem Barentsz and Abel Tasman, other great 'explorers'.

Regards

I also think that this article should match the other articles. Onecanadasquarebishopsgate 15:25, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Maybe in other respects too. The whole concept of Dutch ethnicity (other than with respect to expats) almost doesn't seem to exist outside Wikipedia and least of all in the Netherlands. I have been looking for serious literature about this subject a while ago to check some of the article's bolder statements (especially on 'Germanic' descent), but either I have been looking in the wrong direction or there simply isn't that much around on this topic. What bothers me is the positiveness with which this article states many 'facts' of which really not that much is known, often relying on one popular or semi-popular source.
O, and by the way, the collage looks fine. I personally like it much better than the previous picture. Iblardi (talk) 17:08, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Thanks. The article could use some copy editing indeed. I don't agree with your idea that Dutch ethnicity doesn't exist. Especially regarding ethnolinguistics, the dutch have existed for quite a long time. Of course it's not a "race" but it's certainly not less ethnical as say the french or english. - PietervHuis (talk) 17:25, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Well, the concept of ethnicity itself is a modern invention, and 'ethnicity' is very difficult to define because it is a subjective idea, not an objective reality. Hence perhaps the poor quality of the sourcing in this article: there are no hard scientific data.
The fact that a group of people at some point in time (notably the 19th century) define themselves as a community and then go looking for some common background, e.g. a supposed common ancestry, does not mean that the ancestors of these people considered themselves cognate in the same way. In fact, the further you go back in time, the less likely it is that people who live scattered over a large area will identify with their 'kinsmen' several hundreds of miles away. Dutch history itself is marked by regionalism. Ethnical awareness could only come into existence with the formation of nation-states. Trying to define a Dutch ethnical identity in the distant past is projecting back a 19th century Romantic theory, which may be studied as an historical idea in its own right but should in my opinion not be used as a means for interpreting the past. I think it would be more realistic for the article to concentrate on the Dutch as a group defined by the territorial boundaries of the Netherlands instead of using the vague term 'ethnic group'. Iblardi (talk) 19:24, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
I don't really, and the problem with your assertions is that it doesn't apply to the dutch only, but would mean that we also have to erase English people and French people and so on, and pretty much the entire defenition of Ethnic groups. Old Dutch was spoken since 500 A.D. at the same time when the germans, the french and the english languages started their existence. That's how it is in a simplified way, a group of Indo-European-speaking peoples that split into different ethnolinguistic classes over centuries. - PietervHuis (talk) 19:44, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Even so, the article would be more convincing if it would cite one or two academic sources on the subjects of Dutch descent, ethnicity, ethnogenesis et cetera. Right now it is just full of claims that are not backed up by evidence, which makes it read more like an essay than a genuine article. And no, I do not consider De Roepstem, The Xenophobe's Guide and The Undutchables as authoritative sources, although perhaps some others might. Iblardi (talk) 20:15, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
They probably aren't (I haven't contributed text to this article so don't blame me). If you want to have scientific backgrounds regarding ethnicities and human races and such you'll probably have to look for DNA backgrounds; the luxury of modern times. Y-DNA haplogroups by ethnic groups starts of interesting. - PietervHuis (talk) 20:22, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

On the collage. Im going to restore the picture of the Dutch girls. We need a neutral picture, it's tempting to insert all the internationanlly famous Dutch people but that way you'll only keep conflicts... why isnt rembrandt there? Where's van der Waal? Why isnt vincent van gogh there? Etc etc. Everyone has different preferences, so avoid all that and go for anonymous Dutch people. Just because other articles have it (but make a clear note! not the ones who have received featured status!!!) doesnt mean this one should. Thats not a valid argument.HP1740-B (talk) 10:00, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Ehm, Rembrandt was in there.
If the collage is not neutral, then the old picture of 'anonymous Dutch people' certainly isn't. No 'typical Dutchman' looks like that. The picture communicates an outdated, stereotypical image of the Dutch as clog-wearing farmers and fishermen, and is not representative for Dutch people at large. Iblardi (talk) 11:01, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
Collage is probably best, we can place the picture of the clog girls somewhere else in the article. HP1740-B, if you, or anyone else, disagrees on who is inserted this can be discussed. I am also open to change the portraits so it won't be much of a problem. - PietervHuis (talk) 15:11, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

I think the collage is a good idea. BUT.... Before the 16th century we cannot speak of the Dutch. Floris V could be labelled as Hollandic, or Frankonian, and Erasmus the same. I don't think that is close enough to Dutch, if it is we could also add Charlemagne. Secondly I would not list Edison as Rooseveldt as neither of these were actually born in the Netherlands and lack the cultural-nation connotations that are part of the ethnic definition (i.e. ethnicity is not alone genetics). Finally I doubt the relevance of van Riebeeck and Schaft who are relatively minor characters. Arnoutf (talk) 16:59, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your input. You're right about the last four noted. I tried to make a significant connection between dutch americans and the afrikaners since this article isn't about dutch-born but the ethnic group as a whole. Therefore I added the 2 most famous dutch americans, and jan van riebeeck who isn't seen as important in the netherlands, but was very important for the future of south africa as is today. As for Schaft, I had to add at least one woman. Some collages paste some famous model because it looks good but I wanted one whose also famous for her acts. Schaft of course isn't as important as the other character, but shes ok looking and amonst the most famous women in our history (Who else :I).
As for Floris and Erasmus I can't agree with you on that one. This article isn't just about citizens since the rise of the Dutch republic but the entire ethnic group. Erasmus is famous as a dutch person, even though he was born before the dutch republic was established. Floris V also spoke Middle Dutch for example, and we still have the Ridderzaal and such build by him. The dutch can be drawn back since the arrival of Old Dutch. - PietervHuis (talk) 17:40, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Regarding women, I would also like to suggest this one. She is fairly iconic. Or is she considered Frisian rather than Dutch? Iblardi (talk) 18:35, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

She's quite a historic character indeed but I too am afraid she's Frisian which is a seperate ethnic group. - PietervHuis (talk) 18:57, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
HP1740-B, it is a completely valid argument. Wikipedia is built on discussion, and it appears that Wikipedia and its users prefer collages in this group of articles. The collage's pictures can be from various points of history, various places within the Netherlands, etc. In general, there are more possibilities in a collage than with the one picture. I agree with Iblardi - the picture does not represent the Dutch, it's too vague. Onecanadasquarebishopsgate 19:12, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
One of the problems with the old Dutch people is to establish when we can start talking about the "Dutch". Personally I can live with Floris V, or even older counts of Holland. But at a certain stage the distinction Dutch-otherwise starts to become blurred.
I agree there should be at least one woman. I did not notice that ground for inclusion. How about Belle van Zuylen or Wilhelmina of the Netherlands. Both much more high profile than Hannie Schaft. Arnoutf (talk) 19:36, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
Betje Wolff and Aagje Deken may also be an option. Iblardi (talk) 19:44, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
Arnout I agree that any further back it becomes blurred, although on a side-note I also think much more details can be inserted in the article concerning how the dutch have developed over the milenia.
I think you're underestimating Hannie Schaft's fame a bit, she was placed 2nd highest in the "greatest dutchman show"[5] of all dutch women (excluding jewish and germans) except for Major Bosshardt, besting most women (although by no means do I think this list is very representative). She's also been named after a lot and was the subject of many books and movies. I personally would like to keep her in because not only was she a notable female of dutch history, but also depicts the dutch struggle during WWII (nobody else does so far in the collage) and on top of that she's good and typically dutch looking.
However I also believe other women can be used too, maybe to replace someone else? The first one to go is probably Roosevelt. Although he was proud of his Dutch background, he was only 50% dutch or-so and the president of a foreign country What do you think?
As for the women named right now, Belle van Zuylen's fame arose mostly abroad where she also took on a swiss identity so I'm not sure. Wilhelmina of the Netherlands is quite big, but 'unfortunately' it seems she was German (But I'm no expert on the royal house) - PietervHuis (talk) 22:47, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
The ethnicity of the Dutch royal family has come up before, and it seems that consensus is that calling them Dutch is acceptable (after all, Beatrix is even less Dutch than Wilhelmina with German father, grandmother, Russian great-grandmother. But ok, we can keep Hannie Schaft, who is undeniably Dutch. Arnoutf (talk) 08:15, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Well yes they are Dutch nationals but we really can't call them Dutch Ethnics. It's more inviting to call them Dutch because Germans and the Dutch are both germanic peoples, but it's still not accurate. To give an extreme example, Seedorf can call himself Dutch but he'll never be an ethnic Dutch ;) Our royal house has been predominantly German since Willian the Silent showed up, but (thankfully :P) with Maxima's arrival now there's going to be different blood. - PietervHuis (talk) 18:00, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
I want to replace Roosevelt quickly, any ideas with who? - PietervHuis (talk) 19:32, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] collage vs single picture

Let's not jump to conclusions. A collage is just what's prefered in some articles on ethnic groups. Most articles do not have a picture in the infobox, and many also have what this article has, a single picture of the group it represents, for example the Thai and Aboriginals. You say that the picture doesnt't represent the typical Dutchman, well then I ask you: does the collage? Is the typical Dutchman a world famous painter, scientist, statesman, resistance fighter or royal? No, not by a long shot. Besides that, it's not the pictures task to represent the typical Dutchman, but just to represent Dutchmen. It does that, excellenty. The discussion above is a great example of the problems with collages ... the collage has been inserted a few times in the last couple of days, and already there is disagreement. Who is Dutch, who is important who is not, who is known internationally, etc. It's a neverending spiral. Avoid it and just leave the neutral picture. If you want to list well-known Dutch people, do so in a separate gallery section. Problem solved.HP1740-B (talk) 21:56, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

HP1740-B your arguments hold no ground. What's in other articles isn't very relevant because those articles aren't this one, but I won't ignore it and say that the Thais people article is underdeveloped and the Aboriginals are only a small ethnic group and don't have much famous people. What he said about the "typical dutchman" is that the clogs picture depicts the stereotype perceived in foreign countries, which is something different than listing famous dutch people from the past which is a lot more informative for the average reader. Also there's not really any disagreements, I recently introduced the collage and we're looking at ways to improve it. There's no "problem" as you phrase it whatsoever and we get along fine. The only problem right now is that you've been removing the image even though so far most have agreed that they like the introduction of one collage or another. - PietervHuis (talk) 22:26, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
There has been a collage previously with Anne Frank and Spinoza (sorry can't find when but it was somewhere about a year ago) which sparked a lot of discussion. The "clog photo" diffused the debate in the end. So let's be civil and try to decide on the issues without heated edit wars. Personally I think there are a few issues for consensus
  1. Do we want a collage, a photo of a stereotype, or nothing
  2. If we want a collage, how many people
  3. If we want a collage, what claims to Dutchness are needed (i.e. when in History can we start speaking about the Dutch, are descendants of Dutchman still Dutch and into what generation, how strong must Dutch heritage be for someone living in the Netherlands to be called Dutch - e.g. the royal family, Anne Frank, Spinoza)
  4. What representation of the Dutch ethnicitiy do we want to present. I mean, from what historical era's, disciplines (military, science, art, political, etc.), gender balancing.
I think the best way forward is to go through these questions and once consensus has been achieved starting to find the cnadidates that go best with our list-wish. Arnoutf (talk) 08:24, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Pieter van Huis, one of the arguments used by supporters for a collage is exactly what you claim to oppose. Namely that 'other articles seem to prefer it'. I've looked into some pages concerning this topic, and there are no guidelines which say they prefer a collage, or a picture at all for that matter. The size of the articles I mentioned, does not matter for this discussion at all. I named them because they to do not use a collage, that stands firm and strong. Another point is this, this is an article that makes it very clear its about an ethnic group. Viewing the articles that I've seen that use collages, they all seems focused on nations, and their collages are quite nationalistic and biased. For example where are the most well known German and Georgian (Hitler and Stalin, red.) in their groups collage? Only 'good' people are shown. That's biased. Like I said before, most Dutch are average Joe's, and in that respect are closer to those girls than a selection of the 'greatest Dutchmen'. The picture caption reads very carefully that it depicts Dutch girls in traditional clothing, readers are hence able to figure out that Dutch people do not dress like that everyday. It's not stereotypical, it's a reality recorded on film. I really think you should first make very clear why you think a collage is better, before jumping in and saying "we need a collage". Okay, "why ?" HP1740-B (talk) 11:22, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
I've also restored the initial picture of the Dutch girls. For a number of reasons:
  1. The picture seems to have been unopposed for a very long time, in any case much longer than last weeks collage.
  2. Some want to replace the picture with the collage, I think those people need to make clear why their collage is better than the picture and why the picture is worse. With collage installed during this discussion, I as a supporter of the picture get the feeling I'm the one who needs to 'prove' the picture over the collage... seems its more logical the other way around.
I would hence like to ask you all to leave the picture untill consensus has been achieved.HP1740-B (talk) 11:29, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
There is no opposition to the collage except from you, HP1740-B. You seem very adamant on keeping the clogged girls. Why? Iblardi (talk) 11:38, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
I've explained that in my previous message. Eventhough I'm seeming ly the only one defending it, that shouldnt matter. I'm still a person and have rights to out my opinion/arguments. Just because you seem to outnumber me doesnt make my arguments worth less. I'm looking into the possiblity of a request for comment, or an open wikipedia-wide vote.HP1740-B (talk) 11:53, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Noone said that you can't explain your opinion. In fact, Iblardi asked you for your opinion. About WP:OSE, what about WP:CON? Seems there is a slight contradiction - but either way, it seems that the majority of people would prefer a collage. Also, I don't see why people who hold multiple nationalities can't be included. Onecanadasquarebishopsgate 14:09, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a democracy, valid arguments are worth more than peoples personal preferences. Also, please do not confuse ethnicity with nationality, that's a slippery slope towards totall anarchy in an article on an ethnic group.HP1740-B (talk) 15:33, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Firstly, do not confuse anarchy with disorder.
Secondly, WP:NOT explains that Wikipedia is built on consensus, and not by voting. The "preference" itself is a valid argument - the picture is far too vague and has limited possibilities, while the collage provides variation and several examples. On Wikipedia, there are conventions that were created by consensus - and this is one of them. As I said, you can challenge it, but it does not necessarily mean that it will change. Onecanadasquarebishopsgate 17:33, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Mind you, I have no strong preference for either, but I think this debate is degrading into a nasty naming and blaming one rapidly from both sides. That is not productive
At the last comment of "Onecanadasquarebishopsgate" one question pops up: Provide the link to the convention as HP1740-B has argued that this convention does not exist. If there is no explicit convention anywhere, it is up to this article to reach consensus what image to provide.
Furthermore your statement "the picture is far too vague and has limited possibilities, while the collage provides variation and several examples" is a personal opinion (I could argue that the variation in the collage introduces different vagaries, and that a collage has limitations as well) and not the "hard fact" you present it like.
Anyway the long standing (more than half a year) consensus for this specific article has been the clog-girls single photo, so it is up the supporters of the collage to change consensus, not the other way around. Arnoutf (talk) 17:50, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
HP1740-B you constantly deleting the collage is not an example of trying to reach concensus, it's just being disruptive (no offense). I haven't deleted the clogs picture I merely moved it down to a different section and introduced a collage, an idea that has appealed all users except for you. Yes you're a person and you have rights, but so do we which means that we don't have to wait until we can introduce a new image until not a single person (you) opposes it. The first time you saw the collage you instantly deleted it without giving a single argument, you hadn't even looked at it properly because you didn't notice Rembrandt was in it and decided that you don't like it. You say "wikipedia is not about democracy but who has the best argument". Who exactly decided that you have the best argument except for yourself?
You mentioned 'problems' that aren't even present right now. I gave arguments on why I chose a field of 4 by 3 collage in my introduction: if you or anyone has another idea on that feel free to give counter-arguments, I'm open for dicussion and compromises. We've already explained why it's best to keep the clogs pictures for somewhere else in the article, because it merely denotes a stereotype of present day dutch people. Yes it's historical, but also a selective cultural image based on this stereotype, and a collage has many more options and is a lot more informative.
I invite you instead to help us reach concensus on who is in it. Generally it's best to build one of Ethnic Dutch people who have fame and aren't highly controversial. That's why war criminals like Stalin and Hitler aren't featured on the Georgian and Austrian page (hes not German as you said). And generally people ranging from different times holding different professions. The only concensus that should be reached now is who should be in it and who should be left out. - PietervHuis (talk) 17:48, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Onecanadasquarebishopsgate, consensus is a general state of agreement. All I've been reading here comes down to 'we outnumber you, so take it or leave'. Sorry, but that's not consensus.HP1740-B (talk) 18:04, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
PietervHuis, please take a good look at what you're writing. To me, it sounds like this. "We're going to go with the collage, that's final. Let's discuss who's going to be in it.". No. It's become clear to me that you main, and possibly only reason as I see no other clear objections, for being against this picture is that the girls wear clogs. The point is it shows neutral Dutch people. It's true that people from different eras hold different professions, if you'd read carefully you'd have seen that was not my point. My point is that the selection isn't neutral. In history more Dutch were farmer and carpenters than statesmen and artists, if one wants to portray a whole group through a picture do it neutrally. That is what the discussion should be about: why is a collage better than a single picture, with clear examples. Not that "it offers more possiblities", but well formulated examples.HP1740-B (talk) 18:03, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
ps.I'm not going to squabble on what ethnicity (not nationality) Hitler has, though I'd like you to explain the difference between a German and Austrian in the 1930s.HP1740-B (talk) 18:03, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm not "against" that picture I merely introduced a new picture that is more informative for the infobox. The picture is only represents a stereotypical dutch people and adds nothing to the average readers knowledge. A collage is not an example of a "biased" collection, everyone who sees it understand its merely a collection of famous dutch people who have contributed a lot to the netherldands or the world over the past centures, aka notable dutch people.
  • To Pietervhuis, there are only 4 editors involved (not counting myself I consider myself neutral). To be honest, with only 4 editors involved I think 1 objection is already getting in the way of consensus decision making. Anonimity is not required for consensus but I think in this case we need more involved editors to change consensus (which is the clog image as the history of this article shows as a fact).
  • To HP1740-B it would be worthwhile to communicate what you think are the requirements of the picture or collage. Think of your ideal image/collage (forget the clog girls for a moment). If you have a good suggestion, this may give a positive spin to the discussion, rather than the downward spiral I see happening now. Request to HP1740-B Please collect your thoughts and write a single response at a time, to streamline the discussion. Arnoutf (talk) 18:14, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
No HP1740-B, I am not saying "take or leave", I said that you can explain your opinion just as any Wikipedia editor can, that's consensus - in this case there is a majority support for the collage. Also, the definition of convention is: "something regarded as a normative example" - nowhere does it say that it has to exist in writing. I helped create the page for the micronations convention, but it had existed long before that. Onecanadasquarebishopsgate 22:14, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a democracy so a simple majority is not enough to settle a debate. Consensus decision-making entails much more than a vote at the end, but it also does not necessarily imply anonimity. Arnoutf (talk) 20:31, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Whose in ??

I replaced Roosevelt with van Leewenhoek, although there are now 4 scientists altogether. Another one which is likely to go might be van Riebeeck. Here in the Netherlands he's not famous, maybe he is in South Africa, but I'm not sure about his fame there, and I'm thinking about creating a section about the disapora in South Africa just like there's one about the diaspora in the United States. The image of him boarding the Cape can be used there maybe.

Arnoutf you mentioned earlier how you wanted to add recently-become famous people, or living people and add more women. I personally don't like adding living people, just like at Russians, Germans, Italians and many others because it's extra hard to determine which living one would get the honor of being inbetween historically significant figures. However, many other pages have also adapted living persons so if others here also would like to see it introduced that's fine of course.

You mentioned some controversial politcians and people who are best to avoid, Tiesto could be an option. I'm not sure because there's many modern musicians who are succesful, also internationally I think, and its hard to decide which one could go. Another option could be an actor for example, such as Rutger Hauer, or maybe even Carice van Houten, she's also female so thats 2 points. I'm not sure. Thoughts? - PietervHuis (talk) 20:54, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, I'd agree with Rutger Hauer, because he is more 'established', but apparently he's gone and only left his autograph... We would also have to try to find a license free picture of Carice van Houten. Iblardi (talk) 21:14, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
Let's give my ideal format for the 12 people (without names)
Row one. 2 pre republic Dutch people and 2 Early republic people (at least one female)
Row two. 4 Golden age and late republic (at least one female)
Row three modern 1815-now (at least one female).
Additionally: At least one of each: writer, painter, scientist, statesman, military or colonial leader.
If I try to fill this out it would be something like
Floris V - Erasmus - Johan van Oldenbarneveldt (well I am a republican not a royalist ;-) - Kenau Simonsdochter Hasselaer (the notable female)
Rembrandt - Hugo Grotius - Aagje Deken - Michiel de Ruyter
Eduard Douwes Dekker - Thorbecke - Hannie Schaft - Rem Koolhaas (look I added a living internationally famous architect above and beyond my initial suggestion).
This lists 4 military leaders - 2 female (Floris V and de Ruyter, Simonsdochter Hasselaer, Schaft), 4 statesmen (Floris V (again), van Oldenbarneveldt, Grotius and Thorbecke), 3 writers - 1 female (Erasmus, Deken, Dekker), 1 painter (Rembrandt), 2 scientists (Erasmus - Grotius (both again..) and an archtect (Koolhaas). It also includes a female for every row.
Alternatives are welcome, but I think a format that roughly follows the timeline and balances gender and occupation to some extent is to be preferred. Of couse a musician or actor is welcome, by providing a nameless "ideal" framework I just wnated to lift the discussion to a more abstract level before going into details. Arnoutf (talk) 21:22, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
As for the first row, I would suggest Jacqueline of Bavaria as an alternative for Kenau Simonsdochter Hasselaer. She is a high-ranking female and has a somewhat better looking portrait, although I wouldn't know if she counts as 'ethnically Dutch' (comparable with Wilhelmina in this respect?). Iblardi (talk) 21:38, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
To make the list chronologically could be option, but as I explained in the introduction I prefered to avoid that, (many other collages did too). I actually initially planned to do that, but then it starts to look a bit like "dutch through the ages" style, first painting, then black and white photos and finally colour photos. I tried to make it slightly chronologically (floris & erasmus went first) but from there on I simply tried to spread out the photo styles and professions. You listed quite a lot of new characters, including many women. I'm not sure if we really have to hold onto a specific quota of an amount of women since throughout history they rarely presented high functions (I hope there's not female wikipedia readers here right now =/) of course this has changed.
As for the people presented, there's some good possibilities but also some who are possibly not notable enough. I know we can't go with the list of De Grootste Nederlander because kids who bother to pay for something like that decided, but the large list of a hundred nominees was created by writers and such.
Someone like "Aagje Deken" wasn't on it and I've never heard of her before? Same goes for "Eduard Dekker". Kenau Hasselaer.. hmm I don't think so, I mean isn't she mostly famous as a joke kind of? There doesn't seem to be a good drawing of her face (large enough) and I'm not sure if the painter actually had any idea what she looked like. I prefered your initial suggestion over Rem Koolhaas. Iblardi's suggestion of Jacqueline of Bavaria: she does have an interesting portrait, however if she's indeed non-Dutch (initially I read she was 50% but I think I read wrong) I don't think we can use her.
Another question of mine is, who do you think should be the first (few) to go? I myself nominated Riebeeck and I think that IF we decide on using a living person, his current position would best bereplaced by someone living. Cheers. - PietervHuis (talk) 22:32, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
Ok good points. Of course we can use some of the input of famous Dutch; but as you state above we will have to value that on its value and not on its place in the finals.
Re my suggestions, they were just an idea how to fill out my wishlist and showing it is possible. And actually I like the parrot image of Herman Brood ;-)I think both Aagje Deken (not my original idea), Hasselaer and Jacoba van Beieren were chosen as pre 19th century females. They are not easy to find. Belle van Zuylen, Trijn van Leemput being 2 other examples. So if we want to include historical women that will be a challenge. (BTW I guess you actually DO know Eduard Douwes Dekker but probably only under his pen-name Multatuli.) Arnoutf (talk) 07:11, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
I wouldn't really mind dropping Aagje Deken in favour of Belle van Zuylen, that was a more or less random suggestion. Belle's portrait could probably be considered more visually attractive. Iblardi (talk) 07:19, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Just dropping another suggestion: the 13th-century mystic Hadewych would be a very early example of a female writer. The trouble with her, again, would be to find a usable picture. Iblardi (talk) 16:45, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Good idea, and the images of Floris V seem not very good or true to nature either. Arnoutf (talk) 17:28, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Belle would probably be better because of the good painting of her and I think she's more respected. I've added her, at least for now. I updated the image of Floris V with a higher quality one, but you're right it's a posthumous drawing from 1625/1650 or-so, even though it was engraved with Latin descriptions. Contrary to what I said earlier, I think we can still use it though, just like with Sir William Wallace and Christopher Columbus, but maybe make a small note about it. I've made a few other changes. I think with 2 females we can just concentrate on finding "greater" people without looking at their gender now. - PietervHuis (talk) 01:22, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

<- Please consider that it is not about "great" people per se. The collage should give an overview of the width of Dutch engagement; over classes, styles, occupation and time. (btw - good work with the collage so far) Arnoutf (talk) 13:40, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

It might be better to replace Edison with either a national-Dutch writer (maybe), engineer (preferably: Cornelis Lely) or a second painter (definitely?). Isabelle de Charrière could be replaced with a female contemporary Dutch writer called Hella Haasse or with another female writer called Annie M. G. Schmidt creating a better balance between contemporary photography and dated craftsmanship - 20th century (which defines the modern Dutch literary and cultural character) and Dutch historical characters. There might also be a need to place a Dutch entrepreneur or businessman? Maybe remove a scientist? Maybe look for someone who is both a scientist (engineer) and a businessman like Anthony Fokker? There must be better examples | There are also no musicians and composers to be found and Jan Pieterszoon Sweelinck or Matthijs Vermeulen could be a good start for composers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.146.24.65 (talk) 13:46, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

How about this: 2 painters; 2 politicians (including nobility); 2 scientists and engineers; 1 war-hero; 1 philosopher; 1 jurist; 1 writer; 1 architect and 1 entrepreneur. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.146.24.65 (talk) 14:13, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
Maybe we should make the list of pictures 5x4 and the portraits smaller, but not like the articles about Portuguese people and Spanish people which are 6x3 and have unclear and very small pictures. We also have to make sure that we don't and never add as much pictures to our collage as the article on French people; which is ridiculously plentifully and tiny.
Next to this i would suggest that we base the quality of being Dutch on three measures. Ethnicity (can you trace a majority of Dutch ancestry in the last three generations), culture (Have they and there parents been raised in a predominantly Dutch spoken and cultured area; both at home and in the local community) and nationality (Did they posses the Dutch nationality). Anyone we add needs to comply with at least two of these measures.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.146.24.65 (talk) 15:45, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
voor de mensen die Nederlands spreken: [6] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.146.24.65 (talk) 16:15, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
You're right about Edison, he's already on the page with Dutch-Americans and it adds confusion. I'll replace him soon. I can't agree with you on those requirements because then we can add someone whose not ethnically dutch in the scientific way of the word, and we could even include Africans. - PietervHuis (talk) 00:31, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
Then we have to make ethnicity the requirement, for being Dutch. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.146.24.65 (talk) 14:36, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Dutch ethnicity

I have for a long time been thinking that this article is in need of serious revision. I will try to explain why.
The article states:
An ethnic group or ethnicity is a population of human beings whose members identify with each other, usually on the basis of a presumed common genealogy or ancestry. Ethnic groups are also often united by common cultural, behavioural, linguistic, ritualistic, or religious traits. The defining characteristics of the Dutch as an ethnic group (although no longer as obvious as before) are:
Religion: Although a single religion no longer plays a dominant role in the Netherlands, Dutch society is nevertheless one of Christian descent, evident by history and the great influence of engrained Christian traditions and teachings, which is imminent in a landscape dominated by church towers, celebration of Christian holidays such as Christmas, Easter and Ascension, and several biblical proverbs and sayings.
Language: The Dutch share a common language, Dutch.
Culture: The Dutch culture is a north-western European culture, be it with quite a few unique elements. Dutch customs are also different from other European countries.
Ancestry: The main specific ancestry of the Dutch are the Franks, a migratory Germanic people (themselves an alliance of a number of smaller tribes) who arrived and settled in the Low Countries during the collapse of the Roman Empire and the migration period.
Now, about the Dutch as an ethnic group. First we have to note that ethnos simply means 'people' in the sense of Volk. Can we really speak of a Dutch Volk?
In the article four criteria are touched upon: religion, language, culture, and ancestry. The first criterion, religion, says 'Christian'. Not even a specific creed, but simply 'Christian': a historical characteristic that the Dutch have in common with all of Europe. Hardly a criterion for distinguishing the Dutch from the Germans, the Polish, the Italians, et cetera. Yet in the Netherlands, beneath this veil of Christianity, we find a sharp historical division - sometimes accompanied by violence - between Catholics and Protestants. This is hardly a unifying characteristic of the Dutch people.
Secondly, language is mentioned. Obviously, most Dutch people speak Dutch. Yet ironically, the Queen's Dutch, perfect as it may be, is apparently spoken by a foreigner, as the above discussion on Wilhelmina shows. It should also be realized that until the unification of the Northern Netherlands Dutch was only spoken as far east as the IJssel; beyond that river we are on Low German territory, which was heavily oriented on the German cities of the Rhineland (e.g. Cologne). Only the establisment of the modern nation state of the Netherlands and the accompanying centralization have lead to linguistic unification. Without the modern Netherlands, we would not consider an inhabitant of Groningen a Dutchman.
Then culture: here I can certainly think of a few things, e.g. certain folkloristic characteristics that the Dutch have in common (notably Sinterklaas, although such traditions were often redefined, if not invented, in the 19th century); and a general sense of 'being Dutch' (often sharpened when we travel abroad) based on common rules of conduct (e.g. typically Dutch egalitarianism) and certain shared traditions (which may include Koninginnedag or even such things as popular television programs or, for that matter, stroopwafels). Essentially this is a feeling of 'us' belonging together, often reinforced when travelling abroad and confronted with other peoples' customs. If this means the Dutch are an ethnos, alright; but such an identity can hardly be established on the basis of objective data. If you consider yourself Dutch, then you are.
As for ancestry, this is a thing that can be measured to some degree, but I do not know of DNA research that indicates a direct descent from the Franks, who are called the primary ancestors of the modern Dutch in the article. This may be true in a linguistic sense. However, modern genetic studies on the historical inhabitants of e.g. the British Isles seem to indicate a large measure of genetic continuity since prehistoric times. This situation might be different for the Netherlands, but it does warn against presenting unfounded speculations on ancestry as facts in an article. And as far as invented ancestry is concerned, I can think of no pre-modern chronicles dealing with "the Dutch people".
Shortly speaking, I think the title Dutch (ethnic group) is a misnomer. It lacks scientific basis. The notion of a Dutch ethnos is vague and much too susceptible to subjective interpretations. That is what makes this not an article, but an essay, and it leads to lengthy discussions on the talk page. It has been fashionable to speak of de Nederlandsche stam and het Nederlandsche volk for a while in the 19th and early 20th centuries. It is not popular anymore, partly because of post-War sentiments against nationalism, but also because it is in essence nothing more than a romantic idea, which, as I indicated further above, may be interesting to study as a historical phenomenon, but which should not be used as a conceptual framework for writing a modern Wikipedia article. Iblardi (talk) 11:31, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
As an amateur ethnologist I understand where you're coming from. Let me first say this, you being Dutch can make it harder to see the boundaries of your ethnic group. I somehow sense you're an atheist, fine I am too, but you need to readjust what ethnology counts among 'religion', religion is more than being registered as a catholic or protestant, christianity has had a major influence on the world, and the Dutch as well. It's not a problem that other peoples have had this influence as well. Then language, Dutch is not the Queens Dutch, Dutch is much broader, it includes everything from ABN to the dialects. Sure some people in the Low Countries speak dialects based largely on Low German (not a lot though) but that not a problem either, Jews for example speak languages from whole different language families but still form ethnic groups. Low German and Dutch are quite close from a linguistic pov, and language though important isnt everything. Ancestry too, ethnic groups do not all have to have the same ancestry, it impossible. What they need is indentifiable ancestry. I doubt an arab, southern/easter european/ black person or asian living among the dutch would find it. Conclusivly, and ethnic group deals with culture, and thus cannot be put between red lines... there is always going to be a diffuse area and internal differences (note these are always more obvious for in that outsiders) but in this case there is still a clearly visible ethnic group. The title and article is justified. Ethnic groups are everywhere, they 're not all noble savages, they live in cities too. Scientific basis can be provided... I have a large collection of books on the subject.HP1740-B (talk) 11:51, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
What kind of books are these? Can you mention titles of publications that deal specifically with the subject of Dutch ethnicity?
An encyclopedia should report academic consensus, not try to set up its own arguments and present speculations as facts. Note that the section I cited above is arguing the case of a Dutch ethnic identity. Whether or not you think the argument is convincing, it is still the original research of someone trying to build a case. Others may disagree. As long as no sources are given, the arguments, for instance the one about religion, may just as easily be reversed to prove the opposite. Iblardi (talk) 14:06, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Defining ethnicity is a tough topic. There are basically 2 approaches: The genetic approach (overstated- Wier Neerlands bloed in d'aderen stroomt van vreemde smetten vrij) and the cultural approach (overstated - if you feel and act Dutch, you are Dutch). Both have their problems (the first excludes the royal family, the second may include first generation immigrants). To complicate matters the Dutch CBS (statistics agency) uses the definition of ethnicity that you are ethnic Dutch if both your parents were born in the Netherlands (i.e. if your mother was born during a 1 day trip to Antwerp you are officially not ethnic Dutch, but 3rd generation Morroccons (provided both their parents were born in the Netherlands) are).
About Dutch language... That goes to ethnogenesis - the emergence of the Dutch ethnic group. We can be sure there was no such group before the migration age in the 5th century. We can be sure of a Dutch ethnic group in the early 19th century. When the Dutch ethnicity comes into existence can be contested (early medieval, late medieval, union of Utrecht, peace of Munster, Batavian Republic, or even later). This makes the issue difficult.
About the other things. Christian religion and the dutch culture are intertwined, if only in the Catholic-Protestant wars.
Complex, yes. Easy answers no. This has been a problem not only in this, but also in the overalethnic group article Arnoutf (talk) 14:23, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Not at all. The arguments about religion can't be reversed. You think way too black and white. The Dutch culture is a Christian influenced culture, this doesn't mean that the Dutch are all christians or that you have to be one to be Dutch. An ethnic Dutch converting to islam for example will not make him/her any less ethnically Dutch. Ethnicity is a complex cocktail of genetics and culture. It's not, like you seem to want it to be, a checklist which you either pass as either Dutch or non-Dutch. I would also like to make a few notes to Arnout. There is no specific date in which any ethnic group emerges, dates can work for nations, not for ethnic groups. Also the Dutch goverments 'allochtoon/autochtoon' regulations are not equal to the terms 'ethnic dutch'.HP1740-B (talk) 15:28, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Oops you're right about CBS, that is allochtoon. There is no clear definition of ethnicity. And indeed I agree there is no specific data (as I said somewhere between 500CE and 1815CE the Dutch as an ethnic group emerged... that is a grey area of over 1300 yrs). Arnoutf (talk) 15:59, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Well, that's a bit over the top ... the Dutch emerged truly emerged in the early 9th century, before that there was a transition period between the Dutch and the Franks, the main ancestor ethnic group. I think you name 1815 because of the Belgian revolution and the following separation of the Dutch, but that's not a real break off point. It doesn't happen instantly. Remember ethnic groups can change too. Remember, the introduction of roman architecture and technology to the Franks, and their subsequent settlement of the Low Countries (along with other factors, such as religion) paved the way for an 'ethnic transformation' into the Dutch. Ethnicity is an evolving process. I'd wish it was more clear, and that I could give you an exact date... but it's in its nature to be vague at certain points.HP1740-B (talk) 17:48, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Just giving the most extreme boundaries I heard. (btw 1815 establishment of William I as King of the Netherlands; but indeed 1830... Belgium comes into existence). Personally I would narrow down the "grey area" to 900-1500 (i.e. the foundation of the hereditary Dutch realms after collapse of Charlemagne's European empire untill reuniting the realsm under the Burgundians). But I think we agree, it is an ongoing process (perhaps in 500 yrs time we have an article "Ethnic EU-ers" ;-) Arnoutf (talk) 17:59, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps indeed :-). It seems to me, you focus on political divisions as reference points, however in the early periods inventions, kinship, religion and language are much more formative of ethnic groups.HP1740-B (talk) 18:08, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Language studies are very helpful for determining the roots of an ethnic group. Old Dutch made its arrival since the 5th century, at a time when also the German language and the English language had its roots, earlier than Italian. Since then the Dutch grew out as an ethnic group, people hardly intermixed with neighbouring countries and developed their own families and stuff. The only grey area that in my current perception is who are direct ancestors are. I believe it's mostly the Salien Franks, but are we the only descendants of them? If we are then we could proclaim that we are simply still the Franks. Stuff like that, has already been researched a lot and can be looked up and further elaborated upon, there's probably many books about it (you can read pages on books.google.com). Another grey area currently is that of the Flemmings, who with the recent rise of nationalism have foalks that don't consider themselves "Dutch". Nonsense if you ask me and probably most historicans, same goes for the majority of the Afrikaners. - PietervHuis (talk) 18:11, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
[edit conflict]
I think that part of the problem is the title. "Dutch (ethnic group)" makes it necessary for the article to deal only with ethnic Dutch people, yet it seems to be impossible to give a clear and exact definition of what this ethnic group constitutes or when it emerged. As Arnoutf indicated, when you focus on ancestry, you will draw different conclusions than when you focus on language, folklore et cetera. There apparently exists no clear definition of Dutch ethnicity upon which everyone agrees. Yet the article has to assume that there is such a thing, because it has to be organized as an coherent article with a more or less fixed content. The definition chosen is a rather implicit and 'soft' one which is apparently precise enough to exclude several well-known historical figures who have played important roles in defining Dutch culture and are somehow part of the Dutch identity. These choices are not supported by sources on the subject of Dutch ethnicity.
My proposal would be to change the title from "Dutch (ethnic group)" to "Dutch people", meaning people who can be considered Dutch in the broadest sense possible. Then the content should be modified to have it focus much less on ethnicity and much more on other aspects. It should have a section on the problem of defining Dutch ethnicity, but it would also deal with Dutch culture, customs, mentality, emigrants et cetera - in fact, much the same as it does now, but without the purely ethnocentric perspective. This way, we would also have room to include those other historical figures such as Erasmus, Spinoza, William the Silent, Anne Frank and others, without having to constantly discuss if it would be justified to include them in collages and such. Iblardi (talk) 18:21, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
No, there is a clear group of people identifiable as the ethnic Dutch. The larger group you speak of is that of the Dutch nation. Though certainly linked, nationality and the term "nation" are not the same thing as ethnicity and should not be mixed together.HP1740-B (talk) 18:24, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, I know what I speak of. That is what I said: move away from the ethnocentric perspective. HP1740-B, I also asked you for titles earlier on, maybe you overlooked it. Iblardi (talk) 18:35, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Personally I prefer to limit it still to the ethnic group, but instead another section such as "Dutch as a cultural identity" and "citizens of the netherlands". A tracable line exists between dutch ethnicity and nationality. Some of the most notable dutch citizens, we are still proud of today, don't qualify of ethnic dutch. Anne Frank for example was ethnically Jewish, no matter how much nuances are applied, just like how Albert Einstein wasn't German. Anne Frank and william the silent however were still notable dutch people as in nationals, but their contribution of the citizens of the netherlands can better be explained on History of the Netherlands or the page Netherlands itself. - PietervHuis (talk) 18:29, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
I agree with this, though even technically Anne Frank wasnt a Dutch citizen. I would advise you (Iblardi) to start an article on the Dutch nation. Another section here would mix them, which would be wrong and confusing.HP1740-B (talk) 18:41, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
I am seriously questioning the justification of this article's existence in its present form. I explained my reasons for this but seem to get no answers other then denials without further motivation. There is something strangely familiar about having this discussion on this particular talk page. Iblardi (talk) 18:48, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
(edit conflict) The discussion is moving towards the narrow ancestry definition of the Dutch. I don't like that too mcuh, one of the undeniable results of that is that Dutch Royal Family can no longer be considered ethnic Dutch. There is a very wide grey area where nation and ethnic group cannot be distinguished; so basically I tend to agree with Iblardi that Dutch people is not a bad idea (btw this whole discussion has played itself out with other editors a year ago; it should be findable in the archives). Arnoutf (talk) 18:49, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Not that I'm lazy or anything but could give a brief summary of the outcome of that discussion?HP1740-B (talk) 18:52, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
The current compromise (including the clog girls) after all sides were worn down by: discussions several dozens times longer than the current one (at least where it is now), edit wars, blocked users and hurt feelings.
Sorry that I cannot give details, it was just too much to summarise in a single line; most arguments were very similar to those mentioned now and there was little movement on all sides. My edit conflicted message with Iblardi shows that we both shared this deja vu at the same point in the debate..... Arnoutf (talk) 18:58, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
A grey area is no reason to just wipe out the existence of the Dutch as an ethnic group. Consider it a challenge to describe the Ethnic Dutch more explicitly. The only solution which I see with it is that there should be a much greater subsection considering Dutch culture, history and its people in which also Dutch people who aren't ethnic Dutch are spoken about and are listed. - PietervHuis (talk) 19:03, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
If they had a profound effect on parts of ethnic Dutch culture they should be noted.HP1740-B (talk) 19:07, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Evaluation Pros and Cons

[edit] Single picture of random Dutch people.

To get a clear objective/effective picture on the matter we are debating. Please list your points below in a clear way.HP1740-B (talk) 18:22, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

What about a third option: a collage of random people? Iblardi (talk) 18:38, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Mmm I can see some merit in that. That could include "clog girlds" but also "carnaval" "Streng gereformeerd" and "Gay parade". Then we could also add a merchant from the golden age. We get rid of the nationality/famous issues and do justice to historical and within group variations. Arnoutf (talk) 18:43, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Could be an option, a collage of random Dutch people of different ages and sexes. pictures could prove hard to find though, with permissions etc. But if do-able, I would support it. However I would support the picturing of Dutch peoples faces, not of different Dutch events/settings the article afterall deals with people, not holidays.HP1740-B (talk) 18:45, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
AAAAH please don't that would be horrible. The Gay Parade in the infobox of Dutch people? Is this page really supposed to acknowledge a stereotype of Dutch people or something? - PietervHuis (talk) 18:56, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
In case the discussion below should not have a clear outcome: why would it have to be either the one way or the other? We could also have a collage that contains both notable and anonymous persons, including one portrait of a woman in traditional dress (which is already available in one of the existing pictures). Iblardi (talk) 15:47, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
There is also a grey area between being an 'anonymous' and a 'famous' person. This writer, for instance, is not especially famous, but looks fairly Dutch-ish. Aptly, he has written stories that take place against a traditional rural background. Maybe it would not be a bad choice to use such portraits for representing 'common' people. Iblardi (talk) 16:35, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
He is relatively well known though. But no kidding, I thought this discussion was first and foremost to decide between the "collage" and "single image" options. Operationalising claims to fame can in my opinion wait a while. Arnoutf (talk) 16:41, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
Pros

1. Picture of anonymous Dutch people. (in the 1920s)HP1740-B (talk) 18:35, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

This argument presupposes that 'anonymity' is desirable for its own sake. This should be demonstrated first. Iblardi (talk) 12:35, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
It was demonstrated. The lack of personal preference is a major point as wel als the neutrality it guarantees.HP1740-B (talk) 13:12, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

2. Clearly identifiable as Dutch on sight due to traditional clothing.HP1740-B (talk) 18:35, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

If we want to show traditional clothing, we can also achieve this by integrating a portrait of a woman in traditional dress into the collage. Iblardi (talk) 15:37, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
Cons

1. Stereotypical and therefore necessarily an oversimplification Arnoutf (talk) 18:26, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Not stereotypical, traditional Dutch clothing, as clearly made clear in subtext.HP1740-B (talk) 10:57, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
Stereotypical. The picture is an eyecatcher that gives a first impression of the topic. First impressions matter. Do we want it to be that the most notable thing about Dutch people is their traditional clothing? Iblardi (talk) 11:18, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
It is not even traditional (all of) Dutch clothing, only traditional Dutch rural clothing of a specific region (these clothes were never traditionally worn in e.g. The Hague or Amsterdam). Arnoutf (talk) 12:11, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
It is tradional Dutch clothing, of course there are internal differences... but it's recognisably Dutch. The Dutch caps are there one of the most universal atriubutes of Dutch traditional garment.HP1740-B (talk) 13:40, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

2. Biased, as it is a small group of people chooses what they think is a most typical (ie internationally recognised visual) image of the Dutch. Arnoutf (talk) 18:29, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

3. Biased, only certain Dutch people are portrayed. In the current example: rural girls. Almost impossible to find a single image that is typical (e.g. Staphorst AND Amsterdam Art Scene) for all Dutchmen and women. Arnoutf (talk) 18:30, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

4. Pictures of anonymi tend to be older black-and-white photographs, which are considered visually less attractive by many people. Iblardi (talk) 19:00, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Personal opinion.HP1740-B (talk) 19:35, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Personal opinion of many people. And this project is intended to reach many people, isn't it? Iblardi (talk) 19:46, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
"of many" doesn't sound like a fact to me, do you have any equeries on this subject to prove your argument?HP1740-B (talk) 19:54, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
I have to agree, personal opinion. Onecanadasquarebishopsgate 22:20, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Nevertheless Ibladi has a point that goes for both options: High quality appealing picture, preferably full colour is to be preferred. Arnoutf (talk) 12:11, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I was just about to restate this negative argument as a positive one in favour of the multi-coloured collage. Should it be moved? Iblardi (talk) 12:51, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

5. Only from one point of history - does not represent the majority of Dutch people today. Onecanadasquarebishopsgate 22:20, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Euhm, neither do Erasmus, Floris V or Michiel the Ruyter represent Dutch people today. I do not think this argument is totally distinguishing between the options; and please note we are not necessarily discussing the clog-girls for this option, but all "single image" possibilities. Arnoutf (talk) 22:39, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
They are however dutch historical figures. The clog picture does not represent the dutch through its existence, merely a stereotype preceived outside the Netherlands, one that wasnt even present in the centuries before its use, and is today inaccurate. - PietervHuis (talk) 22:50, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
It's not a clog picture. I don't call the collage 'the nationalistic collage' either so please stop refering to it in such a demeaning manor. These girls represent history as well, it isnt meant to show everyday Dutch people, it shows Dutch people in traditional clothing.HP1740-B (talk) 10:56, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
Well, referring to that picture as the 'clog picture' as a shorthand makes some sense as the girls do wear clogs. I don't see how this would be a reason for accusing the creator of the other picture of nationalism, unless you have a strong emotional attachment to the folkloristic picture. Iblardi (talk) 11:33, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
Don't be offended by the clogs, it is only to simplify references and distinguish between "any single image" and this specific image of "girls wearing traditional rural Dutch clothing including clogs" (note that most official "klederdracht" - is Sunday/church clothing that often does not include clogs.). Arnoutf (talk) 12:11, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
On the contrary, Dutch klederdracht often includes clogs, as well as small leather shoes. Iblardi, Pieters dislike of the single picture is not the reason why the collage is nationalistic. It's because it's a biased view of "Hollands best".HP1740-B (talk) 13:11, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

<- Ok perhaps you are ight clogs are sometimes part. But anyway the problem remains that this type of klederdracht has mainly been a rural affair; which is very much out of date at the moment. (ps perhaps this is a better image than the clog-girl one). Arnoutf (talk) 13:19, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't matter if it rural arnout, it's tradition. Traditional clothing is always out of date. It's not meant as a contempory Dutch image...HP1740-B (talk) 13:38, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
Good picture, Arnoutf, but the focus on traditional costumes is even more explicit than in the old photograph. I think it could certainly be used at an appropriate place in the article. Iblardi (talk) 13:46, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Collage of famous Dutch people.

Pros

1. Allows overview over variations and era's Arnoutf (talk) 18:27, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

2. Lists a selection of the most notable Dutch people which is very informative for someone who wants to read about Dutch People. - PietervHuis (talk) 18:55, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Invalid argument. If they want to read on specific Dutch persons they will typ in their names in the search bar.HP1740-B (talk) 19:34, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
The collage helps users to identify who is a notable Dutchman in the first place. Specific Dutch persons are not that widely known. Iblardi (talk) 11:54, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
I am not sure whether helping identifying "famous Dutch people" is, or should be the aim of this specific article though. Arnoutf (talk) 12:16, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
Thank you.HP1740-B (talk) 13:07, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
It isn't detrimental to the article's purpose and it is more user-friendly than having to use the search bar. Iblardi (talk) 14:29, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
I think it has not been decided whether or not it is detrimental to the artical, although it might be useful to some, this advantage of should be regarded as an extra that comes from providing an overview of the Dutch in the best possible way we can; no an aim of the opening image in itself. Therefore I would not give this argument much weight in any decision. Arnoutf (talk) 14:42, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
You're right, I was thinking one step ahead of the decision making. Iblardi (talk) 15:04, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

3. Links directly to those people who are represented and makes readers more drawn towards reading their biography. - PietervHuis (talk) 18:55, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Invalid argument. Not the purpose of this article, at all.HP1740-B (talk) 19:34, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Good argument. It combines two functions: it gives information on Dutch people in general, which is the purpose of the article, and it stimulates users to find out more about these people and to enhance their knowledge, which is the purpose of Wikipedia. Iblardi (talk) 20:00, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
No, this article should focus on the Dutch ethnic group, for notable Dutchmen other pager are present. Your argument is easily overturned if I say the Dutch girls are there so people can click on a link to traditional clothing.HP1740-B (talk) 10:52, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
No, that's not very convincing. The current picture offers links to many historical figures, whereas your alternative would only link to one topic: traditional clothing. Iblardi (talk) 11:46, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
Argument 3 (about functionality) is only applicable if and after we decide that we want notables. Iblardi (talk) 15:18, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

4. Has much more potential as many more options are presented. - PietervHuis (talk) 18:55, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Invalid argument. No potentials or options listed.HP1740-B (talk) 19:34, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Valid-it has a lot more potential because we can develop it further into the future and see who is best to represent a given profession, era or symbolic value. - PietervHuis (talk) 20:11, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
No, you're just repeating yourself. Name the potentials you speak of!HP1740-B (talk) 10:52, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
Well for one, a single image can only show one style from one part of the Netherlands from one time period. (e.g. the currently discussed one is clearly rural and 19th early 20th century. A collage can cover a broad range of types of clohting and era's and has hence more potential. Arnoutf (talk) 12:16, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
They are wearing tradional clothing, in the 19th and 20th century these werent everyday clothes. I would see no difference between this picture and a modern picuture of Dutch people in tradional clothing.HP1740-B (talk) 13:06, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
Cons

1. Biased, as it a small group of people chooses who they think are worthy enough. HP1740-B (talk) 18:35, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

2. Biased, only certain Dutch people are portrayed. Artists, statesmen, royalty and scientists. Not typical, let alone average Dutchmen and women. HP1740-B (talk) 18:35, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

3. Instead of a neutral (or negative image), only the positive is portrayed. HP1740-B (talk) 18:35, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

All three arguments are pretty much the same as the first of three. A collage of notable dutch people is something other than "biased" it simply portrays notable people who are regarded as famous or important not only by wikipedia users but also historicans, journalists and all the citizens of the netherlands. You don't want to add the most famous carpenter do you? (with all respect to carpenters like my father =) ) The image doesn't have to be "neutral" it just supposed to show notable ethnic dutch people. - PietervHuis (talk) 18:55, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
To frame this correctly, I copied these objections phrased by HP1740-B to the first list to show that the problems is two-sided Arnoutf (talk) 12:16, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

4. The overtones of this/a collage are nationalistic rather than ethnic. HP1740-B (talk) 18:35, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

No! I've been avoiding famous dutch people who don't qualify as ethnic Dutch and you and I seem to agree on that so I don't see what your problem is here. - PietervHuis (talk) 18:55, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
The portrayal of "the Dutch' best". We need a neutral picture, this one is nationalistic.
So that's the same argument as your first one again. You've repeated it four times now. In which way is it wrong to have it "nationalistic"? It's exactly what the article is about too, and it's very innocent. Everyone knows that not all Dutch people are great scientists or wizards. - PietervHuis (talk) 20:09, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
No, here's your problem. "In which way is it wrong to have it "nationalistic"? It's exactly what the article is about". That's utterly wrong, this article should be free from nationalism: it's about an ethnic group!) HP1740-B (talk) 10:52, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
Reading the definition of ethnic group in the cultural group belonging parts of the definition some level of nationalism is unavoidable. Arnoutf (talk) 12:16, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

5. A list/gallery of notable Dutchman can be placed in the Notable Dutch people subsection. HP1740-B (talk) 18:35, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Better is the other way around, leave the clog girls in a subsection. They don't attribute much to the readers mind, they only acknowledge a stereotype. - PietervHuis (talk) 18:55, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Invalid argument. The Dutch girls are not notable Dutchmen, the ones in the collage are.HP1740-B (talk) 19:34, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes and such a section is not necessary, what would be more possible is a section concerning the Dutch stereotype. - PietervHuis (talk) 20:11, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Stereotyped aren't based on thin air. They are wearing TRADITIONAL clothes. Do you think people with Ruffs are everyday dressed Dutchmen?!HP1740-B (talk) 10:52, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
This objection has already been listed under the single image cons. Arnoutf (talk) 19:02, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Uhm...

What's the idea behind these lists anyway? Why don't you write it down on a piece of paper instead? So far you've been the only person who has problems with "a" collage and now you're trying to blow the whole thing up, and when I place comments you delete them which you aren't allowed to do. It looks like you're never going to agree on this and if the collage as a lead has a lot more support then you're going to have to accept that. - PietervHuis (talk) 19:26, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

The point was to simply list Pros and Cons without debating them, to get a clear picture. I explained this to you 2 times to no effect, resulting this listing to fall into chaos like the previous discussion section.HP1740-B (talk) 19:36, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
I can't recall any "chaos" tbh. But maybe it's just me. - PietervHuis (talk) 19:38, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Do you find the sections above to be easily readable and structured? If so, then yeah, maybe it it's you.HP1740-B (talk) 19:39, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
This does not give you the right to single-handedly delete arguments against your own position. Iblardi (talk) 19:51, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
They weren't because the arguments presented do not have any value.HP1740-B (talk) 19:52, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

It is not up to you to decide wether or not an argument has any value. this is a discussion page and you are free to disagree but you are not free to remove content. As for the discussed matter, I'd propose to keep the collage. Most other pages on ethnic groups use them and I don't see anything wrong with it. Perhaps I would have excluded Dutch Americans and Afrikaners but other than that the collage seems fine to me. ForrestSjap (talk) 19:57, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

If we don't debate them then how are these lists going to help? HP1740-B what is the point of these lists that can't be challenged? Onecanadasquarebishopsgate 22:29, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
The purpose was to simply list pros and cons, to get a clear overview.Most were already discussed, it was supposed to be a quick overview of the unclear discussion above.HP1740-B (talk) 10:53, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Summary

Ok I think this has had some success in getting things into the open but is not evolving productively. Below I list problems and benefits of the options. (NEG (negative) arguments against; POS (positive) arguments in favour). Some arguments were listed for both, or apply to both and these are listed separately.

  • Both
    • NEG Biased by view of people selecting the image
    • NEG Biased as only part of the variation can be pictured
    • NEG High quality image has to be chosen
    • NEG Placement might better fit other sections
  • Single Image
    • POS Anonymous person, so neutral connotation
    • POS A clearly identifiable, typically Dutch image can be chosen
    • NEG Stereotypical image does not cover variation in population
    • NEG Historical image can not cover the whole history of the ethnic group
  • Famous collage
    • POS Allows overview over variations and era's (more potential)
    • POS Links directly to famous Dutch people
    • NEG Tends to be nationalistic rather than ethnic.
    • NEG Famous people promote a positive rather than a neutral image

A third option (non famous collage) and the option to include non famous people in the famous collage were suggested. In my personal opinion this might introduce both strong points of the "single image" option to the collage. However (IMHO) only the non-famous collage counters for the negative elements of the "Famous collage" while at the same time it drops the second positive element. Personally I think a good collage would be the best option, however a mediocre single image would have my strong preference over a mediocre collage (I don't think the current suggestion for a collage is good enough) Arnoutf (talk) 17:03, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Debate continues

I object to the biased and nationalistic connotations of a collage of 'famous' Dutch people. A collage of anonymous Dutch people of different ages and sexes would not be a problem. The question is... can one find enough 'free' pictures of Dutch people. Perhaps there exists a free photo of a Dutch (extented) family which could be used.HP1740-B (talk) 21:08, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
I just remembered I still have some pictures I once took at the open air museum, of a Dutch folklore group. Not sure if it's a better picture, but I think it is very pretty and might be helpfull.HP1740-B (talk) 21:23, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
Hmm, it's full-colour for sure, but it looks more apt for illustrating a folklore section than for giving a general impression of the Dutch (ethnic group). Iblardi (talk) 21:38, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm getting the feeling that finding a picture that represents all Dutch people is like chasing windmills. People expressing traditional dance are apt for a picture representing tradional Dutch culture ... thus I think use in the infobox is justified.HP1740-B (talk) 21:50, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
A collage of "anymous dutch people" is a pretty bizar idea. How would it inform readers? Oh, this not just a shoemaker, but a Dutch one! Do you think readers have never seen a dutch person before?
No that picture can't replace the collage. It's a nice picture sure, add it somewhere else where it can fit in, the collage can't fit anywhere else really. Again, the collage informs users a lot of historical figures concerning this ethnicy which is what wikipedia is about. It merely shows that how the dutch have contributed to the world history and the world as we see it today, which is very informative. It nothing to do with with "BIAS" and doesn't violate NPOV as it has been used on many other ethnic pages with ethnic Dutch, and as such can stay. - PietervHuis (talk) 21:45, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
Jesus man! Why do people need to get informed in the infobox?! If they want to see and read about famous Dutch people they should go to "list of Dutch people"!If they want to get informed they should read the goddamn article, why the hell would they merely read the infobox?! The infobox picture should show Dutch people, preferably doing something typically Dutch. It doesnt matter a minority does it, they're Dutch people and they're dancing a Dutch folkdance, behind them is a scenery of Dutch architecture! How more Dutch can you possibly get?! HP1740-B (talk) 21:50, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
You're getting a bit tired of yourself? You can argue and argue until you are blue in the face but so far up to 7 people have likened the introduction of a collage. No the collage does not "have" to go to the "list of dutch people" its been fine in many other articles without problems. Also you can't define what's "typically dutch", the one with folk dancing illustrates a setting so positive only a theatre play could portray it in real life and as such isn't really "realistic". Your picture is nice so add it somewhere else, I've done it for you in an appropriate section. As for the question, why do we need to be informed in an infobox? "INFO-box". - PietervHuis (talk) 21:57, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
Maybe a nice compromise for you is to somehow find a way to list one of those pictures much higher in the article, near the first sections so we have both. Like at the Ethnic Dutch part. Or even right below the infobox. Here I made an example for you[7] this way we have both in the introduction. I'm fine with that (although the specific image is still a bit too stereotypical maybe). Maybe other users see this as a solution? - PietervHuis (talk) 22:04, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
I don't know. I strongly dislike having one of the folkloristic pictures in or directly beneath the infobox (for the purpose of compromising?) because I consider them even less representative than a collage of notable people. But my point of departure differs from yours, since I am ambivalent towards the article in its present form, with or without those pictures. I am still in favour of using the collage, possibly in a modified form, regardless of the 'ethnic' issue: it still has a wider scope than the single photograph. Iblardi (talk) 07:04, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm not getting tired of myself, I'm getting tired of you and your attitude. The INFOrmation of the INFObox are the numbers in the INFObox, because I assume wikipedias aim is to INFOrm people through letters, not pictures. Your entire point is based on the 'fact' that you think the infobox now complies with a neccesary requirement. FACT is however that no such requirement exists other than in your own mind ... and I honestly can't think of why I have to repeat myself so often and get so upsett just to make that clear.HP1740-B (talk) 13:52, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

<- Sorry but images should support the text WP:MOS and should therefore contain information. There is no such thing as a non-informative image (not even that of the invisible pink unicorn). There is actually a lot of information in the picture; namely: The Dutch are an old-fashioned, rural society that cherishes tradition and shies away from modernisation (actually that information is also present in the current collage). Whether you want it or not, that INFOrmation is there. Arnoutf (talk) 15:06, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

If there is no such think as a non-informative image then I don't understand the suggestion that the single picture isn't informative. Tradional, and contempory are two different words. I think it's clear to everyone it portrays a tradional image (it even says it twice in the caption) rather than suggesting a contempory image, which you seem (to want) to see.HP1740-B (talk) 15:38, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
YOU'RE the one who said "If they want to get informed they should read the goddamn article, why the hell would they merely read the infobox?!" insinuating that a picture doesn't have to be informative. Now you can back-paddle and say "hey this picture is informative too!" Sure do that, truth holds that a collage is A LOT more informative in many areas. - PietervHuis (talk) 15:43, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
My attitude as in "He has a different opinion than I do?". Wikipedia isn't limited to informing people through letters, pictures can be used too. Even so below the collage text is presented which links to the biographies of Dutch people who've all represented the Dutch through fame and succes, and all have their own wikipedia page, which alltogether is a whole lot more information than 1 image that shows a dance from the 17th century or so. I find it a nice attribution yes, just like when I surf to, for example, Armenians I find it interesting to see a list of notable Armenians not just recent Armenians but also from centuries ago. I previously didn't know much about Armenians, but after I visited their pages I know a lot more. No I don't think an infobox "requires" a collage, that doesn't mean it isn't a nice attribution. Just like how a picture isn't required to be "non-biased" or whatever you keep calling it, since it doesn't violate any rules (they never get deleted off other pages), it's just your personal preference. It's impossible to find a single picture that sums the entire Dutch group throughout its ages, at least not better than a collage. Culture changes, and so do clothing style, architecture and folk dances. A collage however not only shows a variety notable historical figures but also informs a lot about the history of Dutch people such as their struggle against england, suffering during World War II, (currently) the Dutch disapora which is huge and even includes minor attributions such as clothing style, and there's many more options. Do you think it helps for you to drag out the discussion for days and post entire diagrams of arguments and counter-arguments? We will all eventually agree that a collage isn't a nice attribution? The only reason why you are getting "tired and upset" is because you can't persuade us in deleting the entire collage. You think you're the only one who has to repeat himself? We've been doing it all the time! But we still believe a collage is a nice attribution and will keep thinking so, just like many international wikipedians believe so since its starting to get used more and more. That doesn't mean we don't think the other pictures you've shown us aren't nice attributions, they are and we enjoy using them both. A collage however is made specifically for an infobox, I already proposed to you to move one of those two pictures up or even right below the infobox, although you might not agree on that, expanding the idea of simply using both. Furthermore I really don't want to "piss you off" or anything like that, I enjoy your further contributions, and the newly constructed introduction is nice. - PietervHuis (talk) 15:39, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Don't twist my words. A picture does not have to show an ethnic group through the ages, nor does it have to be "informative" in the way you understand that word, or portray struggles against other countries, a diaspora or what else (note that I don't think the collage does any of this) it should do 2 things: be neutral and show Dutch people. That's all this article needs, neutrality and keeping to the Dutch, which is exactly what I did to the intro you liked.HP1740-B (talk) 16:36, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Where is it written what a picture "should or shouldn't do"? It's just your personal opinion which you are representing as fact, the collage violates no rules as it has been used with succes on many other pages. - PietervHuis (talk) 16:39, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
Sp have single pictures!HP1740-B (talk) 17:20, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
It is a common practice to provide such pictures for different nations. The selection of most famous people is encyclopedic and has nothing to do with the nationalism. The alternative pictures can be placed in the article, but not in the infobox. So, I support the position by Pieter. Even if "old-fashioned", these people look wise and indeed notable. I like the picture in the infobox.Biophys (talk) 16:49, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
The common practice is disputed as there are apparently also nations with the single picture option.
I would like to get some more modern Dutch people in the collage (e.g. Tiësto, Herman Brood, Freek de Jonge or even Wim Kok or even Geert Wilders). Arnoutf (talk) 17:16, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
It has already been proven it's not as common as everyone seems to presume. Just as many articles use a single picture or use no picture at all.HP1740-B (talk) 17:20, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
The common practice is not "disputed" because many nation pages have only recently begun adding collages. It's also not been "proven" that it's not common practice, because most worked on nation pages do have a collage actually. If you check out the natinalities most editors have on wikipedia[8], ALL of them have a college on their national page, except now again the Dutch because HP1740-B deleted it again, completely ignoring WP:OWN. Yes there's nation / ethnic group pages that don't have a collage yet because there's not been many nationals who have gone through the effort yet. - PietervHuis (talk) 17:32, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
So you suggest to bring Herman Brood who "was the Dutch personification of sex, drugs and rock 'n roll"" instead of Hendrik Lorentz who was the "father" of classical electrodynamics?!. What kind of bias is that? WP is not a place for propaganda of any sort. Peter, you have my full support here.Biophys (talk) 17:31, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
Haha, well you're probably right that he's a controversial person too. I don't think he meant replacing him by someone like that. There's still space open because there's at least one person who might not be significant enough for the collage and instead get a place somewhere else on this page (riebeeck - in a new section concerning the diaspora in south africa maybe). I'm sure we can make something out, but I propose to keep that discussion to the other section. - PietervHuis (talk) 17:39, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
Just wanting to say that the broad range of possibilities should extend beyond the really old. I think to give a good overview of the variance of the Dutch (rather than historical grey men in black suits) we should add some representation of the modern, female and or dark side of the Dutch. But I agree with Pieter, that is a topic for a different section. Arnoutf (talk) 17:51, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
It's a neverending topic based soley on personal preference that will last on and on and on. Apart from that it's a incumbent discussion as the collage hasn't been settled on at all. Eventhough Pieter seems to think so.HP1740-B (talk) 19:56, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
Do you really think you can continue deleting an image just because of your personal grudge to this image? It seems you're never going to start disliking collages in general. The image doesn't violate any rules, collages are used widely on wikipedia and since an almost absolute majority on this page enjoys the introduction of one collage or another, it can stay. Your edits are disruptive and bordering vandalism. - PietervHuis (talk) 20:05, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I have now seen at least 5 editors (myself not counting) who are supporting one kind of collage over a single image, and only one supporting a single image. I can agree with that majority. To HP1740-B I think you should consider that a consensus is shaping against your personal preference. Do you really think you will be able to convince any of us? or might it be better to concede the issue and direct your effort on composing the best possible collage. My issues is still that I disagree with the composition of the current collage and think it should be (re)considered seriously (Both the English people and the French people show modern icons. The most recent in our current collage is Hanny Schaft.)Arnoutf (talk) 20:26, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Willem Drees ;) We could yes, although there's also examples of collages that don't have living people. I'll try to re-activate the discussion above. - PietervHuis (talk) 20:30, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
Oops missed Drees, although pretty revolutionary on some aspects still a guy in black suit.
Anyway as mentioned above the whole Collage thing is emerging and I like your 4x3 alignment much more than the 20x300 (or another bizarrely huge matrix) of the English. Arnoutf (talk) 20:56, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
You mean the French I think :p Yea that's a mess. You probably overlooked Drees because he was born much earlier than Schaft. I've tried re-opening the discussion at "Whose in ??" above. - PietervHuis (talk) 21:04, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
Definitely meant the French :-P..... no offense meant to any English person that collage looks good; sorry guys, my mistake. Arnoutf (talk) 21:29, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
I do not have a personal grudge against this image, I have already explained numerous times why I think a collage is a terrible idea. That you choose to ignore this and continue stubornly pushing your own point of view is your choice. This is an article on an ethnic group, your nationalist collage, which it will always be, no matter how hard you try it not be, will only prove to be a thorn in this article. Some the people who've supported it here made one comment on this page and never look at it again, but I warn you; this is the start of neverending story of perpetual conflict. Because even after countless adaptions there will people who say it's too male-orientated, too socialist-orientated, too science-orientated, too military orientated, too 19th-century orientated, too golden age-orientated, and you'll never, ever, succeed in pleasing anyone else but yourselves. Just to let you see and hopefully learn, and not because of sabotage or something similar, I'm going to show you how every single version you come up with can (and will) be blown to dust in seconds.HP1740-B (talk) 21:53, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for violating WP:Harassment, WP:civil, WP:AGF in that single comment above.
Contentwise: Similar objections as you list against the collage can, and have been, also be raised towards the single image (too rural, too traditionalist, too old fashioned, too stereotypical.....). Each and every image has this problem and that is something we have to deal with to our best capability. Arnoutf (talk) 21:57, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm not harrasing anyone, I remained civil and if any one of you assumed good faith when I made clear I supported the single picture, this whole discussion would not have gotten so terribly out of control. Indeed every image has its downsides but some downsides outnumber and outweigh those of others. I repeat, once again, that a picture of Dutch folkorists is a perfectly fine and harmless picture in a well-written and balanced article on an ethnic group. You prefer a more nationalist aproach which you think is best for an ethnic article, fine. But I'll be here every step of the way, making clear whats wrong. Not a threat, not WP:POINT just me, teaching you why you are wrong, or in any case more wrong than I am.HP1740-B (talk) 22:15, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
Weird idea of civility, and please read WP:harrasment. Anyway, without arguments you can repeat a trillion zillion times that a picture of Dutch folkorists is a perfectly fine but doing that alone proves your violation of WP:POINT (thanks for bringing that one up). Finally: You teaching me requires you to have some knowledge I don't have, so perhaps you have some good source (wich have not been forthcoming) or you have personal authority and are a professor of ethnicitiy at a well regarded university, in those cases I might reconsider my opinion, otherwise you desperately need to be teached how to communicate and cooperate. Arnoutf (talk) 22:26, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
Guys let's just end this. HP1640-B you're entitled to your opinon, but so are we, I have often had to withdraw myself from sections of other articles too, simply because a whole community disagrees, and I still disagree with them today. That's just wikipedia, a free encyclopedia. I myself am currently not insulted by anything during this discussion and I think that you can only blame your own persistency for its length. If you're really going to "rub it in" all the time when a discussion related to the collage goes out of hand then I won't be intimidated by such behaviour, but right now I don't consider there to be any "bad blood" between us and encourage the two of us, and others, to keep contributing to this and/or other related pages. - PietervHuis (talk) 22:55, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
Sorry got carried away yesterday evening. I agree, let's try to discuss in a constructive way how to develop the image collage. Arnoutf (talk) 07:04, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
"In some cases, editors have perpetuated disputes by sticking to an allegation or viewpoint long after it has been discredited, repeating it almost without end, and refusing to acknowledge others' input or their own error. Often such editors are continuing to base future attacks and disruptive editing upon the erroneous statement to make a point.". How eerie. I have presented my arguments numerous times, in fact my option has more PROS and less CONS behind it than your option. So perhaps you need to come up with some overwhelming source or an experts opinion, instead of me. Instead you and Pieter keep pushing your own collage, that's fine, but like I said I'm here to show you that collages are unworkable in a truly ethnic-based article.HP1740-B (talk) 08:01, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Please read the discussion above. I started out very neutral about single-image versus collage, and criticised several inclusions in Pieters collage. So pushing my collage is not justified.
Furhtermore the number of arguments is only relevant if each argument has the same impact. (would you rather go for an option where you get 50 coins of 1 cent (i.e. 50 pro arguments) or for the option where you get 1 Euro (i.e. 1 pro argument). Simple counting is not sufficient.
Even more, I have always framed my opinion as such, an opinion not a fact, therefore it is my personal opinion which is thoroughly sourced by me saying so. However as soon as issues that are contested are presented as facts rather than opinion the person stating his/her opinion as a fact has to provide evidence that it is indeed a fact and not merely a strongly stated opinion.
Finally, there is now a 6 to 1 majority for a collage of some sort. I think it would be more productive for the development of the article to accept that that is as close to consensus as we will ever come. Arnoutf (talk) 08:24, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
I've said what I wanted to say, with this direction you'll never get close to consensus.HP1740-B (talk) 08:39, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Let me repeat again - Consensus IS NOT EQUAL TO unanimity. You said what you wanted to say, that has been considered and the opinion has moved away from your suggestion. Seems like a U-1 consensus starting to solidify to me Arnoutf (talk) 08:53, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Here's a fresh idea. Why don't we add a row of accomplised Belgian/Flemish people into the collage? Then it might be more expressive of the intent of the article. Just an idea. But a good one, I think.--Buster7 (talk) 07:40, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

How would that work if there is also a flemish people article. We also do not add Frisians (who are more Dutch than most Flemings). Arnoutf (talk) 13:21, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

I"m not sure where to go with this. I sense the exclusion of Belgians, and now Frisians, limits the broadbased potential of this very informative article. Do you see an opportunity to reconsider?--Buster7 (talk) 23:59, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

The Frisians were never part of this article; as an ethnic group (genetic dimension) they have been separated from the Dutch for much longer (already pre-800) than the Flemish; as an ethnic group (cultural and national dimension) the Frisians are much more part of the Dutch then the Flemish.
I think this addresses a core issue. How narrowly do we define the Dutch ethnicity. If we strictly limit it to nationality we need to include the Frisians and exclude the Flemish. If we focus on language we need to include the Flemish, exclude the Frisians; but also should include the Surinam and Netherlands Antilles and Aruba. If we consider ancestry we might consider adding the Flemish, but not the Frisians. But is we include the Flemish on ancestry we also should include the South African Boers; as the Netherlands ancestry is closer to theirs then that of the Flemish. Finally if we consider religion, we could argue that the Catholic South of the Netherlands (Limburg-Brabant-Zeeuws Vlaanderen) relates to the Flemish, while the Northern parts are in a single group with the Frisians, and many of the people from northern German bundesstaten.
In brief, there are arguments to include and to exclude the Flemish, the same for the Frisians, depending on which criterion in the description of ethnic group is considered more important. There is no easy answer. The only easy answer is that it should have all of "shared ancestry", "shared language", "shared culture" and that would leave us with the small Netherlands Dutch group minus the Frisians. Arnoutf (talk) 07:19, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

I know there is no easy answer. Generations of History have taken place. Dutch is a dynamic and multifaceted word. It can mean so many things to so many different people. I guess what I'm striving for is inclusion rather than seperation. That was my point. I won't belabor it. As you know, Im new here, Im just finding my way around. Granted, this is a Historical Article and needs to reflect historic facts. I understand your vantage point. I hope you can understand mine. While we are recording the History of the past we can also change the History to come. Bedankt!--Buster7 (talk) 07:45, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

My problem is that the narrow definition can be used relatively neutral, while most broader definitions would have to use arbitrary reasons to exclude... to say it bluntly, coloured people (i.e. genetic/racism is lurking). I would not mind including others; the Flemish and Antilles or Surinam people into the Dutch ethnic group either, there seems to be people some people against; so that leaves me with no other choice than to support the smallest possible group, that can at least be neutrally compiled. Arnoutf (talk) 14:37, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
I like the collage. It looks really nice. Good work.Biophys (talk) 03:35, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Difference between Flemish and Dutch people (is there any?)

I'm not quite sure how you can make a distinction between Flemish and Dutch people. That would mean that a person from Maastricht is considered Dutch, while a person from Maaseik is considered Flemish, even though those people probably have more in common with each other than with people who luve further away in their country. In fact all the main Flemish subgroups (Vlaanderen, Brabant, Limburg) have an equivalent in the Netherlands (Zeeuws-Vlaanderen, Noord-Brabant, Limburg) so this distinction seems very artificial. --Lamadude (talk) 10:25, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Well first of all it does not work the other way around, the Groningers, Drenthen and Hollanders have no equivalent in Belgium.
Secondly there is a cultural difference between the Dutch and the Flemings, although there is a certain gradual differentiation between the Northern Dutchmen, the southern Dutchmen and the Flemings. It will never be a hard distinction anyway (how to distinguish the Germans from the eastern Dutch). Arnoutf (talk) 11:29, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Ethnographically speaking the Dutch and Flemish are virtually identical. However people tend to focus on differences rather than similarities. HP1740-B (talk) 14:11, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
I do not exactly understand your reference to ethnography, which is about a specific scientific method to describe human societies; and as far as I know has relatively little to do with ethnicity. Nevertheless I agree the Dutch and Flemish are closely related (as are all humans, and north-western European societies in general).
I agree that the Dutch Limburgians are closer to the Belgium Limburgians than to e.g. the people from Groningen. The problem remains whether we can lump together the Flemish and the Groningen people in one ethnic group and leave the Frisians out of that cluster (the Groninger have much more in common with the Frisians than with the Flemish; and the Groningen, Drenthe and Overrijssel people have in turn a lot in common with those from Lower Saxony; than with the people from Zeeland. So yes, I agree the distinction between Flemish and Dutch seems arbitrary if you consider the continuum crossing the borders, the problem is, if we consider them as one where do we draw the line. Arnoutf (talk) 14:23, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
There are a number of factors that could be taken into account. Language, history, culture, architecture. It's not as arbitrary or as you would make it seem. In fact, I genuinly doubt if someone from Overijsel would identify more with a German than a Fleming or a person from Zeeland. We left the dark ages you know, people do look further than the church tower of the next village.HP1740-B (talk) 14:40, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
So this whole article is founded on "a number of factors that could be taken into account"? And this is not arbitrary? People do look further than the church tower of the next village because the Netherlands are a nation, with one standardized language, one government, one legal system, not because of some vague and elusive set of factors which cannot be approached objectively and therefore can never be either proven or refuted. Iblardi (talk) 16:22, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
No we are no longer in the dark ages (not even the dark ages of the 20th century where ethnicity and race were mixed up). That is exactly what makes is so difficult. Indeed it tends to be that arbitrary: Language - might include the Frisians; but also Surinams; Dutch Antilles, and perhaps the Afrikaanders. History would distinguish between Flanders and Dutch from 1648 onwards (but would definitely include the Frisians). Then again prior to 1648 the Lowlands were part of the Holy Roman empire, so going back before 1648 would lump Dutch with Germans too. And again, historically it could be argued the ties with South Africa; Surinam and Indonesia are more recent than with Flanders. Culture; well I don't see much distinguishing the whole North-Western culture (unless you look at literature, but that is introducing language through a backdoor), Dutch and Flemish painting and sculpture is not that distinct from English and German art forms. Architecture: The Flemish architecture is much more similar to the Wallonish architecture than to the stereotypical Dutch; on the other hand Overrijssel (Twente) and Guelders (Achterhoek) architecture are very similar to the German style just across the border.
In other words, as soon as we start crossing the border include the Flemish, there are many reasons to include the rest of the word (which I would not necessarily object to, but which would make the focus a bit too broad). I think there should either be a very narrow focus (excluding the flemish) or we might enter an endless debate just how broad the group should be. Arnoutf (talk) 14:58, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
In above post I wanted to make the point that most dimensions of ethnicity are continua. By identifying specific ethnic groups, we try to create a categorisation within a multi-dimensional space. The number of such categories is always somewhat arbitrary; and with every number of identified categories there will be exemplars near the edges that could fit into multiple categories, making the boundaries a bit arbitrary (is the platypus a mammal, and what does including that animal imply for the mammal category border). Arnoutf (talk) 15:25, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
You confuse national issues with ethnic ones. Ethnicity is a combination of factors, the sum of which form the ethnic group. Just because another group happens to build a similar kind of church doesn't make them Dutch, or the Dutch any less Dutch. That's a rather odd way of reasoning. Just like refering to a political split of regions like that of 1648 as a somehow pivotal moment in the Dutch ethnos ... HP1740-B (talk) 15:42, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Of course the issue of nationality is connected with the question of ethnicity. If it weren't for the unified country and the standard language that arose in the last four centuries, Groningen would probably not be considered 'ethnically Dutch'. The reverse applies to the Flemish. Iblardi (talk) 16:02, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
I just specified the four factors (Language, history, culture, architecture) you provided above; and showed for each of them that they are a continuum that slowly changes. (1648 would classify as the moment in history the Dutch and Flemish histories could no longer be seen as one I think; although that coincides with nation building; but that is indeed part of history. I agree that 1648 is putting a rather exact date on a process that had been going on from the Spanish fury onwards; and was arguable only ended with the creation of Belgium in 1830). For each of these factors separately it is not clear to say where Dutchness ends (ie the same type of church); and the combination is not necessarily without arbitrariness eiter. That is the only point I want to make. There is always arbitrariness in seperating ethnic groups. Arnoutf (talk) 16:09, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
The difference between Dutch and Flemish national culture; and Hollandic, Zeelandic, Brabantian, Limburgian, Lower-saxon or Frisian cultures is that they are transcendal, they represent something without boundaries. for example; if is discuss the relationship between the northern-Netherlands, the southern-Netherlands and Flanders, and i feel the need to divide the three into two concepts based on nationality; then there would be no reason not to discuss the relationship the northern-Netherlands and Flanders, have with the southern-Netherlands. In other words. it's the northern-Netherlands that are at the center of the Dutch-nationality; it is Flanders that is at the heart of the Flemish-nationality, and the southern-Netherlands is an area of distinction that belongs to both extremes because it is an intermediate area, a cultural gray-zone. But the two cultures are distinct: The Dutch Calvinists and the Flemish Catholics are very different in temperament. The first is more British (west), more German (east); the other more French (south). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.146.24.65 (talk) 16:24, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Kind of mirrors my point that the east is more German directed (and protestant like the Germans across the border), the west is more directed to the sea and indeed England, and the South is catholic and similar to the Belgiums. I would say however that the prototypical Dutchmen is from the Randstad; making everything south of Rotterdam, east of Utrecht and North of Amsterdam a gray area indeed. Arnoutf (talk) 16:36, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Yes, but because there is both a linguistic and a national border between Germany and England; the west and the east have a tendency to grow toward each other, this has happened on a smaller scale with the southern-Netherlands and the rest of the Netherlands. The same can be said about including the Frisians into a Dutch ethnic groups: They are not separated from the rest of the Netherlands by a national border and partially not separated by a linguistic border (friesian people are multi-lingual). We could say that the Netherlands consists out of 5 (or more) different ethnic groups that have grown closer to each other in the last 400 years because of a shared national and linguistic border that resulted in a shared Dutch culture. in other words, the Dutch state brought related ethnic groups closer together, just like the German and the Belgium state have done this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.146.24.65 (talk) 16:47, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
That does sound very likely. (ps please autosign talkpage contributions using the four tildes ~~~~ Arnoutf (talk) 16:56, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
The best solution is to look at marriage. To what degree do people from different Dutch cultural zones intermarry.85.146.24.65 (talk) 18:12, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
I had been wondering about the flemish too. Point is, in old literature they were always described as simply dutch, but nowadays flemish is often presented as an ethnic group, also by the cia factbook for example. If it wouldn't we could have simply concluded them as Dutch. Concerning the scientific term, there may or may not be a difference ethnically. I believe I read somewhere that the flemish also descent from the celts, unlike the Dutch. HP1740-B do you know anything about that? - PietervHuis (talk) 23:23, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

If and when you decide that the Flemish are not Dutch, it would disway any ambiguity to be sure to remove the 6 million from any mention on your population table.--Buster7 (talk) 04:17, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

It's not even there?? - PietervHuis (talk) 14:59, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
The idea that Flemish are somehow 'Celtic' as opposed to the 'Germanic' Dutch is a myth that started to appear after the Belgian revoltion. In more modern cultural theories on the Low Countries and the Dutch, such as the Nordwestblock-theory, genetics show that the Flemish and Dutch are identical genetically.HP1740-B (talk) 15:13, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
I don't mean completely celtic, but partly. I heard some rumours that west-flanders had celts. Anyway, if you can add sources for all you just said, we can include the flemish and make a side-note that some consider them a seperate group, instead of the other way around. - PietervHuis (talk) 15:43, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Pieter...yes it is ...in the info box, under Total population 25 million - 28 million (~ 34 million with addition of Flemings)...See it now? I know it is a tiny, teeny, almost not visible inclusion of 6 million Flemish... but...there it is!--Buster7 (talk) 23:44, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

To be honest, I think the whole infobox could do with a good revision. Arnoutf (talk) 12:54, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Gallery

I like the idea of a gallery to supplement the infobox image. I have taken the idea of the anon-editor a bit further by filling in some "gaps". With my recent additions (open for discussion) I tried to create a continuous line from Erasmus until now, i.e. I have included at least one person who was born before the previous one died. This resulted in a fairly long gallery, but I nevertheless hope you like this idea. Arnoutf (talk) 18:49, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Allow me to tweak the gallery? 1 Herman Brood: Bad choice. 2 Jan-peter Balkendende: bad choice. 3 Edwin van der sar: bad choice. 4 Hindi Laroussi: Bad choice.
1: Not a native Dutch music style, not well listened or popular, does not cross several generations, does not cross economic class boundaries, did nothing innovating, did not too excel at either music or art: Suggestion:toon hermans, herman van veen or zangeres zonder naam.
2: Not the most influential primi-minister, not very influential in political sciences, has not administered any serious political changes, does not score high for his achievements in other forms of media: Suggestion: wim kok or pim fortuyn.
3:Not such a bad choice but i would suggest a native Dutch sport be given priority.
4:Not Dutch.85.146.24.65 (talk) 19:19, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Fair enough just to explain, put up Brood and Balkenende to show the broad diff between the Dutch (Brood being bohemian, and Balkenende being, well....) I only chose Balkenende because he is currently in power; but changing is fine. Fortuyn might actually be an interesting choice (althoug in practice less influential than Balkenende) as he was pretty explicit, although I doubt his painting is good enough, and there are no Wikimedia images on the other hand we do have Image:Gerrit Zalm 2006.jpg Image:Wilders.jpg Image:Femke Halsema-roel.jpg. We could also add someone else entirely e.g. Image:Wubbo Ockels.jpg as first Dutch astronaut. And I do like van Veen. For sports we could go for a speed skater; e.g. Image:Erben Wennemars celebrating.jpg. I can live with Hind not being ethnic Dutch, but legally she is. Can we put in someone else, tried to find a Jamai image to keep into spirit but could not find one. Will have another look around. Arnoutf (talk) 19:30, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Remember that just being well known is not enough, they have to the best or one of the best in there field of proficiency. 85.146.24.65 (talk) 19:42, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Well NO; I disagree. We are outlining an overview of the Dutch. Most Dutch are neither well known, nor the best in their field. I would say about 95% is average. So why do we need the best of the best in their field. Anyway I am pretty sure that excludes Floris V, William the Silent, and Thorbecke who were relatively fine statesman but not comparable to others (Charlemagne as medieval, Charles V compared to William of Orange and e.g. Bismarck for 19th century). And the influence of Fortuyn on politics is next to zero anyway. Comparably de Chariere and Hannie Schaft are not major players. So I think putting up that demand would invalidate the whole exercise.
And anyway, recognition comes usually after the fact, and since we are writing about the Dutch ethnic group from 2008 we need to include more representation of Generation X and Generation Y; the current selection having only a single person less than 60 yrs in age; and he is from 1970. Putting up the "best of the best" guideline makes this impossible as history has not yet has time to tell. Arnoutf (talk) 19:48, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
I agree, we should remove all famous people and only place pictures of ordinary Dutch citizens. That way people are able to get a better picture of the day to day lives of the Dutch through the centuries. I suggest that we place people from different professions and age-groups together, for example what did children wear around 1900, the Golden Age and in the present day; what makes a politician, farmer, shop-owner or labour different from there ancestors working in the same professions? that would work much better then only famous people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.146.24.65 (talk) 19:57, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Which won't be easy, but if we would manage that would be great. (put up Balkenende again because I really have a problem with the painting of Fortuyn, if you have a good photo, we can discuss (IMHO Balkenende has more influence now than Fortuyn ever had) Arnoutf (talk) 20:04, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
We need a better picture of Fortuyn; i agree. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.146.24.65 (talk) 20:15, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
I replaced Balkenende with Duisenberg because he had more influence on Dutch and European politics then both Balkenende and Fortuyn put together. 85.146.24.65 (talk) 20:23, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Good choice, the guy is often undervalued within the Netherlands but that is probably point of view. Arnoutf (talk) 20:26, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Are we finished with this? 85.146.24.65 (talk) 20:28, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Let's wait for some input from others before closing it indefinitely. I am fine with the current selection. (btw as you appear to be a serious editor consider making an account) Arnoutf (talk) 20:32, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Oh, no. I find wikipedia too stressing. 85.146.24.65 (talk) 20:48, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
I agree that it's best to exclude guys like Fortuyn, also because he's a controversial person. The gallery is quite big now, and includes at least two ethnic germans. If that qualifies then we could also add someone like Clearance Seedorf for example. Not my prefrence, but then I feel that it should be more explicitly stated that that section is not just about the ethnic dutch. Also that skate guy is probably best to be replaced with Bergkamp maybe, and Tiesto can replace Edison maybe? - PietervHuis (talk) 00:34, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
There is nothing controversial about being gay. Many famous Dutch people have been gay. Too exclude gay Dutch people would we an insult to our culture; because we love our gays dearly. 85.146.24.65 (talk) 14:46, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
Uhhhh, did I even mention his sexuality? I was talking about his political ambitions which were controversial, and are still controversial today. - PietervHuis (talk) 16:41, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
Why? Because someone who is gay cannot enter the Dutch parliament? Because of the way he spoke about his homosexuality and his relationship with other men? Sir, i must ask this before we proceed: Are you Christian? Do you believe in the literal truth of the holy bible? 85.146.24.65 (talk) 19:37, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
Again work on your reading. I never mentioned his sexuality. He's a controversial person because of his political views. But if you want to include his self-written essays on his darkroom adventures I guess it fits right in. - PietervHuis (talk) 19:42, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
Well, are you a Christian? 85.146.24.65 (talk) 23:16, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
No, are you a homosexual? - PietervHuis (talk) 02:25, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
I have been called a homo before. 85.146.24.65 (talk) 15:44, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
I think personalizing this discussion isn't particularly helpful. Fortuyn's homosexuality was never an issue in the Dutch media, and neither did he gain such a huge number of votes by virtue of being openly homosexual. It was his polemic style and especially his outspokenness regarding immigration issues that made him controversial. Iblardi (talk) 17:17, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
My Christian heritage taught me never to judge anyone: and i am not going to judge anyone including fortuyn's political ideas and i hope you won't do that either, because we most be neutral and not choose a political side: Left, right, christian, conservative, marxist, green or nationalist when writing an article about the Dutch. when you dismiss fortuyn based on his political ideas then you are breaking encyclopedic neutrality and insulting a large faction of Dutch people who voted on him. 85.146.24.65 (talk) 16:32, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
There is sufficient 3rd party reporting calling Fortuyn views controversial (as opposed to those of the mainstream parties, which you can agree with or not, but that are not considered (very) controversial. If we consider these it is not us that are doing the judging, so no breach of neutrality
Secondly remains, that although Fortuyn stirred up Dutch politics, his views have accomplished next to nothing.
Procedural point; when selecting a gallery we need to judge "worthiness" without doing so we should include all Dutchpeople who ever lived. Arnoutf (talk) 17:01, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Uhm no that's not the point. The point is that there's no need to insert a random controversial politician who was unable to accomplish anything. - PietervHuis (talk) 16:47, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
I have a question? On what do you base the inclusion of tiesto or bergkamp in the gallery? 85.146.24.65 (talk) 14:46, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

(unindent) Why have a gallery at all? There already is the image at the top right, containing images of 12 famous Dutch people. The gallery adds nothing to this. An image gallery mau be relevant for a visual artist (like Rembrandt), but to have one here is completely unnecessary. I note that e.g. neither Germans, Italians, Swedish people or French people have one (they all have a small gallery at the top right, just like this page), and that WP:LAYOUT is not really enthusiastic about them. Do they add anything to the understanding of the article? If you want to include famous people, do the images add anything that a list of names and achievements would not? The article is already pretty long, so there's no need to add decoration. Fram (talk) 10:53, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

That is because we are testing this feature on a wikipedia page. We want to have more input from other people and then decide in what direction we want to take the image gallery. Maybe only show typical Dutch citizens or Dutch culture (architecture, food and living-room) 85.146.24.65 (talk) 14:46, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
I don't really favour a gallery either. There's already a List of Dutch people page. Best is to find a way to integrate these persons in the article or approriate sections. Best solution would be to make a commons page about Dutch people and link that. - PietervHuis (talk) 19:50, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
If it is possible to relocate the pictures through the article, that would probably be best. As it is now, I do like the gallery because I think it offers a nice visual counter-balance against the other, more traditionalistic images in the article. Iblardi (talk) 21:04, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm not in favor of a photo gallery. As Fram says it's purely decoration. It will become like an over-decorated Christmas tree with no end to who goes into the gallery. Right now there is some logical conversation related to inclusion (or not). But that won't last. Someone will want to add Rin-Tin-Tin down the line. Then the arguement will be, "Is he a Dutch or German shepherd?"--Buster7 (talk) 06:00, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

At any rate it would be good not to duplicate the contents of the collage, as is now largely the case (!). Iblardi (talk) 06:21, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Hearing the discussion I have no strong opinion. I like the chronological order as that gives some view about evolving modern Dutch (and fashion). On the other hand merely duplicating an expanded info box setup seems indeed irrelevant. (this latter argument can go two ways - removing/changing gallery or reducing the topbox image to say 4 dutchpeople in which case the gallery does add). Arnoutf (talk) 06:37, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Religions

To 85.146.24.65, why do you keep adding "Agnosticism and Atheism: Humanism, Marxism and Empiricism" to the "Religions" category in the infobox? I think it is obvious that political programs and epistemological theories do not constitute religions, let alone agnosticism and atheism. Iblardi (talk) 17:26, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I would accept atheism (but would need some consensus first) as a group under religion (although it is none), as that is active denial of a deity; and is relevant in the context in my opinion. A problem is that there is no explicit number of atheists (the CBS data only talks about no (strong) beliefs; rather than strong disbelief). The other issues are as much religions as capitalism (which is dogmatic in itself ;-) and should not be mentioned. Arnoutf (talk) 17:33, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

While it provides an interesting aspect of the social fabric of the Dutch people, atheism is NOT a religion by definition. Its a declaration of sorts, but it does not forward the listing of religions. Perhaps a footnote...--Buster7 (talk) 23:21, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

It is no religion, but is related to religion. But I get your point. I updated the religion box and added "41% no reported member of church organisation" first of all, that is what CBS measured (CBS does not report atheism) secondly it shows the secular nature of the Dutch completing the 100% tally of religions, and showing who the missing people are (ie non-members and not e.g. Wicca, Scientology etc). I hope this is an acceptable solution to you guys. Arnoutf (talk) 06:40, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Population

There are two situations regarding Population that should be addressed. 1) The second sentence erroneously states that the Dutch form "a considerable part of the population of Canada,[30]Australia,[31] South Africa[32] and the United States.[33]". This would imply that the Dutch % of population in those countries is significant or noticeably large. It is not. Canada has approx. 30 million residents of which under a million declare Dutch ethnic origin. The US has over 285 million of which a little over 5 million are of Dutch heritage. Australian figures reflect similar percentages. These totals are FAR, FAR from considerable. In regards to South Africa the statement, while still misleading, may be closer to the truth. Can someone rephrase this section so that it reflects the facts?

2) Flemings are still included in the Infobox population figures but excluded in the article, the talk page, the Infobox gallery, and the gallery at the end of the article. Which is it...in or out? Presently, it's both ways!--Buster7 (talk) 01:55, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Considerable is open to multiple interpretation. Some rephrasing maybe indeed needed. From Dutch POV the numbers are significant and considerable, the other way around they are not.
I would say "out". They have their own article. We should acknowledge some shared ethnic past but "past" that is all. Arnoutf (talk) 06:20, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
True re: defs of considerable. But here it is used to refer to an amount. And the percentages of Canadians is 3 1/2% and for the US its less than 1.5%. Austalian #'s are similar. Maybe it's better to omit this sentence since the numbers don't support consideration?--Buster7 (talk) 21:01, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Nationalistic rape, of ethnically orientated article

That's right. You are raping this article. This article is about an ethnic group. Creating an infobox filled with 'famous Dutchmen' wasn't enough, no, you had to add a whole gallery of 'famous and influential Dutch people'. Enough already! This article is about an ethnic group, not a nationalist bulletin board which you two, who both have not (and I have checked the articles history on this) added a single paragraph themselves, can use as a platform to essentially say "look at how important we are" and "look how much we influenced the world". All nonsense. This articles aim is, or rather should be, to describe an ethnic group, not a showcase of famous people who are (though most can be easily disputed) in it. That's where list of Dutch people comes in. This article should, and believe me is going to be, an objective article about the Dutch ethnic group. Take your galleries elsewhere, there is no place for them here.HP1740-B (talk) 20:10, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

This is not constructive, not civil and goes way beyond a reasonable discussion. Also rambling of a single editor ("there is not place for them here") goes against consensus guidelines and puts you in place as owner of the article content, another clear breach of core guidelines. Please edit you own comment to something acceptable (and while you are doing that, please take out the unfocussed "yous" as they do not address anyone in the thread (that being the first post) Arnoutf (talk) 20:51, 14 June 2008 (UTC)