Talk:Durham

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    Naming convention discussion summarised and refactored to Talk:Durham (disambiguation)

    I'm reverting Mav's change to the disamb block for this page. It's no big deal and I am hardly going to start an edit war over this, but, for the record, here is what I said to another user in response to a question about this very issue:

    ... Because I felt it needed a specific disambiguation type thing BEFORE the article started. The most common confusion, and I swear this is true having spent yonks (perhaps even gurt yonks) going through Durham-related articles, is between the English city and county, and if there was a risk this would cause confusion I was hoping to catch readers before they had to get into the article text. [...]
    In other words I suppose I am claiming that dismabiguating the two English Durhams is a special case somewhat separate from the issue of all the other Durhams in NC and Queensland etc, and was trying to make provision for dealing with that in a helpful way.

    Now, as I say, this isn't something over which I am going to lose sleep, but I thought this explanation in Talk might help to make it clear why I thought this minor change is worthwhile, even if at first sight it appears to be overdoing it. Happy Christmas or other seasonal, religious, etc festivity of your choice! Nevilley 12:13 Dec 25, 2002 (UTC)

    It is suboptimal and redundant to have two links to Durham County so close to each other in the article (not to mention that Durham County is also linked form Durham (disambiguation)). If the term you are disambiguating from is very closely related to the term you have chosen an article to be on, then the most logical thing to do is use the first paragraph in the article itself to do the disambiguation. That is the format used in virus and for the French Departments which are named for rivers (see Loiret). The whole point of having disambiguation blocks that link to (disambiguation) pages is to keep it all on one unobtrusive line (lowest common denominator is a screen resolution of 800 pixels wide and standard font sizes). The current disambiguation block wraps to a second line. This isn't good. --mav
    Life is too short for this argument, so I have removed it. Nevilley 00:28 Dec 28, 2002 (UTC)
    btw you mean County Durham, not Durham County. In telling you this I have just saved your life from being flailed to death with a black pudding if you ever come over here! :) Nevilley 01:10 Dec 28, 2002 (UTC)
    Opps! Mea culpa. :) --mav

    Contents

    [edit] Pronunciation

    I note recent edits to the pronunciation debating local vs RP pronunciation. I'm not very good with the IPA but as far as I can see it seems to be claiming the local pronunciation is "duh-rum" and the RP pronunciation is "derr-um". To be honest I would contest this. I believe it is 'correctly' and all-but-exclusively pronounced "duh". The only time I have ever actually heard it pronounced with an open "derr" is by American tourists saying "Derr-Ham", who are simply incorrect, a la "Edinberg". Whilst I can conceivably imagine an extremely posh English person saying "Derr-um", I would suggest this would be outright acrolect, not RP. (For example, and FWIW, my own accent is RP, and I said "duh-rum" long before I moved here). A small and ultimately trivial point though :) Stevekeiretsu 16:21, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

    I'm not sure it is saying it's pronounced derr-um. Of course it's always difficult to discuss pronunciations without symbols (i.e. using the pro-nun-see-ay-shuns method), but I'll have a go. As I understand it, the ʌ is the sound in "run" or "bud" or "enough" or "cup", as pronounced by most people in the southern half of England, and not extremely posh ones. I would tend to represent this sound as "uh" if trying to spell it out, with the caveat that it's definitely a short vowel. Many more northerly pronunciations tend to merge the vowels in words like "good" and "cup", which are definitely distinct when I say them, and the ʊ in the local pronunciation bit is something like the vowel in "good" as spoken by the same southerners I used in the example above. I'm fairly sure the vowel I hear in many local pronunciations of Durham is somewhat more close than my southern version (and my accent couldn't really be described as acrolect or posh), which would tend to support this, but then I could be getting my terminology all confused. I think perhaps we need an expert to cast their eye over it and see what they think. We all know how these things are pronounced, it's just representing it in IPA that can pose a problem. Would you say your pronunciation of Durham uses the exact same vowel as the local pronunciation? Have a listen to this (ʊ) and this (ʌ). These are the vowels the article is currently claiming, local and RP respectively (but shorter than those sound samples). — Trilobite (Talk) 17:07, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
    No, my pronunciation isn't identical to a local pronunciation. I'd agree there is a difference, just by (total newcomer) reading of the charts in the linked IPA article, it seemed like the difference wasn't quite captured quite right. Judging by what you're saying above, I was just misreading the IPA charts, which isn't at all surprising! I would agree a Southerners pronunciation would equate to "cup" and local one more in the direction of a southern "good", so it looks like the error is mine :) Stevekeiretsu
    I've lived in Durham City all my life, and I hate to drag up old arguments, but I think the "local" pronunciation is somewhat adrift from that at the top of the article. I firstly think the "r" is an Alveolar approximant (ɺ) which is common throughout County Durham, not quite an RP "r", but obvious in words like "terror". Secondly, the vowel sound is very much different from the one currently used in the article. My personal opinion is that it is almost always realised as open-mid central unrounded vowel (ɜ).
    Haha, I like the distinction between "local" and "RP" pronounciation. Durham City itself (the city and not the district council area) has a very high proportion of residents with RP accents (the majority even?). Thus, I think the "local"/"RP" is a non-starter. Personally, I can't see much difference in pronounciation between the "local" (like myself) and the "RP" version. Logica 02:26, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
    I just want to mention that the symbol (ɺ) used right now is with an alveolar lateral flap... not quite the "r" (which is closer to an alveolar approximant, represented with ɹ) that most English speakers are used to hearing. That sound is more like the r/l of Japanese. So, unless the local pronunciation sounds a bit like "dull-um" then I think that the symbol ought to change. I am, however, in no way any kind of knowledgeable person on the actual pronuncation; I only know a bit about IPA. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.253.135.206 (talk) 00:40, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] People from Durham

    What are people from Durham called? (ie Manchester = Mancurians) This should be added to the article.

    I don't believe there is an accepted word for people from Durham. You could try Dunelmensians, but it's a bit silly. --Gareth Hughes 18:12, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
    As far as I know, and I have lived here for 22 years, there is no specific term for people from Durham in common usage. The only term applied widely i belive is mackem, which generally means someone from Sunderland but I have found people from Durham are oftern called such by people from Newcastle and elsewhere (perhaps because of its siting on the river wear). When visiting another part of the country I tend to be called a geordie or mackem. Gazzapedia
    Names for people from Durham do seem to vary, as it's not a word that lends itself easily to an adjective or noun form. However, the most usual and formal word is "Dunelmian", for example in that alumni of Durham School are known as Old Dunelmians. I have also heard "Durhamite" used informally in a modern context. However, I have never heard "Mackem" for a resident of Durham; that's strictly Sunderland only. DWaterson 00:35, 18 January 2006 (UTC)


    The students tend to call the residents of Durham "Durhamites" as mentioned above. Obviously, quite a colloquialism, but one I am rather fond of I must say! It should be noted that this is not used in a derogatory way, quite the opposite, and is also sometimes used by the students to describe themselves. Somnia alondra 10:59, 24 February 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Somnia alondra (talk • contribs) 10:58, 24 February 2007 (UTC).

    [edit] Urban layout

    Looking at the map the urban layout is quite odd. Most towns bear at least some relation to a circle in terms of size, but Durham is really, I dunno, stringy and clumby - is this because the Wear flood plain? This needs sourcing and putting in. Morwen - Talk 07:25, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

    It's not the Wear flood plain as such, it's the shape of the steeply-sided valley the river Wear has cut over time. The city is based around a wide bow in the river, which forms a peninsula. The peninsula itself, on which the Cathedral and Castle stand, is on much higher land than the river, and is joined to the rest of the city only to the north (by the Market Place), or by bridge. Other than that, there is no flood plain really; indeed, in addition to the peninsula, Durham is a very hilly city: as List_of_cities_claimed_to_be_built_on_seven_hills attests, Durham is surrounded by hills which also restrict the street layout. Aside from the mediaval street pattern in the centre of the city, the more modern outlying estates have more typical street arrangements. I think the article already describes this fairly well though; much more expansion might make it overly wordy. DWaterson 00:35, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Bailey/Peninsula

    Anyone who has an interest in contributing to Durham related articles may like to look at the discussion going on at Talk:The Bailey Robdurbar 10:20, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

    Authenticity check: A search reveals that the phrase "regarded by many" appears in the text. Is the phrase a symptom of a dubious statement? Could a source be quoted instead? Perhaps the "many" could be identified? Might text be edited to more genuinely reflect specific facts?
    Wetman

    [edit] Famous Residents

    Now I may be unobservant or just not know my history well but I don't recall Jesus of Nazareth ever having been a resident of Durham, yet he's got an entry in Durham's list of Famous Residents. An error, methinks? Snowflake Sans Crainte 19:40, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

    Also, why are Paul Collingwood and Steve Harmison listed as Famous Residents? As far as I can see Collingwood's from a different place within County Durham, while Harmison's from Northumberland. Under that assumption could we put Shakespeare as a famous resident of Warwick? KingStrato 11:39, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

    I agree, Collingwood grew up in Shotley Bridge, some 13 miles away and now lives in nearby Medomsley. He has never lived in the City of Durham --Michaeltyne 15:23, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    Who's Christopher Metcalfe? Suggest removal for NN. Letstalk 14:58, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

    Have done. There was no assertion of notability and google doesn't shed any light on the matter. DWaterson 19:46, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Durham Prison

    The prison. It's not exactly a minor thing in Durham, though goodness knows most of us residents don't exactly think about it very often. It seems a shame that it's not only not mentioned on this page, but - unlike many HMPs - it doesn't have its own Wikipedia page. Having said which I'm loath to mention it because I don't actually know anything about it except where it is. So this is by way of a prod to people who might have more clue but might not have thought to mention it ... --JennyRad 20:55, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

    Good point. I don't much about it myself either though --Robdurbar 22:15, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
    Yes it does: Durham (HM Prison). I shall insert a relevant passage. DWaterson 11:57, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Durham Tees Valley Airport

    "Durham has an airport, in name, the Durham Tees Valley Airport"

    I didn't think this referred to the City, but to the County. I can't find any evidence that would distinguish whether it is referring to the County or the City - though obviously many people feel it refers to the City. Their website doesn't say anything about this either. If there is no evidence that it refers to Durham City, I think it is a bit much to put this in this article. Logica 02:17, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

    Both Newcastle Airport and Durham Tees Valley Airport lie approximately the same distance away from Durham - i.e. about 25 miles (actually 24 for DTV but I'm not sure of the exact figure for Newcastle). I'll add this instead of what was originally there. Logica 00:33, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

    I just wanted to include the appropriate info on the closest air links in the transport section; it never really occured to me when I wrote that sentence that DTV is named for the county nor that Newcastle is equally close! Good work Stevekeiretsu 19:34, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Page name

    I've just reverted an attempt to move this page to Durham, UK:

    • 01:22, 1 April 2007 Feedyourkoalanow (moved Durham to Durham, UK: Disambiguation: There is a city named Durham with a much larger population.)

    This seems a rather extensive change to make without any discussion, especially since having the page here seems to have been stable since the Beginning Of Time (well, 2002). Any thoughts? Shimgray | talk | 14:13, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Images

    I've moved the images about and cut a few out; there were too many, making the page cluttered. --Pretty Green (talk) 09:35, 26 February 2008 (UTC)