Talk:Dungeon Master (video game)

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[edit] Chaos Strikes Back for Windows (and Linux, MacOS X, Pocket PC) a Clone or Hack?

Hmm, i think the main effort of this work was to make it portable to other platforms... so i would vote for including this fine piece of software again into the external linklist. arguments against?

CSBWin is an "exact translation" of the original Atari ST code, it's aim was twofold: First, Paul Stevens wanted to see how the game worked, second, he wanted to get it running natively under Windows. I don't think the definition of 'clone' or 'hack' covers this effort and as the secondary reason for it's existence was to preserve the game for the future, on balance I think it's reasonable to keep the link.--Matthew Hill 19:36, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
CSBWin is NOT an exact translation. There is one change, that I cannot remember, but after playing a few minutes I realized that its not the same. Its either with regeneration or spell casting of unknown spells, but for whatever reason, its not exact, BUT, aside from that one issue, I understand that it reads all the origional data datafiles. --67.174.157.126 (talk) 21:54, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
On one hand I can see that removing the link to CSBWin (and RTC, DMute etc) was the correct thing to do - without context it's just a link to an external project and not part of the Wikipedia "encylopedic" content objective because they don't help describe the original game.
On the other hand, these "new" programmes should be documented somewhere as they are relevant to those people who are likely to be looking at this Wiki page. Specifically, the links should be there, but only when they are set in their correct context
KEEP the links. Clones or not, they allow people to get the flavor of the origional game, graphics and sound, exactly why these games were so revoltionary. --67.174.157.126 (talk) 21:54, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
It's not clear to me what the best way of doing this is. Two obvious options are as follows:
- Have an extra "legacy" section added to the DM Wiki page. This could describe the history of DMute, CSBWin, RTC etc.
- Have new Wiki pages for each of these new programmes and cross-reference them with the existing DM page.
On balance, I think I prefer the second (new pages for each program) but because of the obvious conflict of interest then don't feel I can start these (although would be happy to provide extra information and edit / maintain if someone else did). --George Gilbert 19:50, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
As an aside, while surfing WikiPedia and looking at the entry for Hypercard, it has a large list of links to clones and inspired variants. I therefore do not understand the claim by Frecklefoot of "we don't link to clones".--Matthew Hill 00:49, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Yes, having a look around Wikipedia there are lots of other computer programs with specific sections on clones / remakes etc that, as well as a discussion of their existence, also include the relevant external links (and internal links to the more notable clones that have their own Wikipedia entries). There are far too many to list here but to name just a few of the Atari games that I remember playing around the same time as DM that have clones detailed in their Wiki pages; Elite, Lemmings, Defender, Sentinel, Arkanoid, Rogue etc.
As such I think that the links should be reinstated but there should also be some descriptive text (and possibly new Wiki pages) to put them in their correct context. George Gilbert 00:47, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tolkien Influence on Dungeon Master

I don't really see any direct J.R.R. Tolkien Influence on Dungeon Master. IMHO it's the same as saying that it is influenced by D&D because the story takes place in a dungeon, and there is a dragon in the deepest level of the dungeon. Izwalito 10:03, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I don't see the Tolkien influence either. Definitely more related to D&D instead. --Pelladon 00:08, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Here's a bit of trivia from someone who was there. Dungeon Master doesn't have anything to do with Tolkien, at least not directly. There are some loose associations with D&D that came from Andy Jaros, the graphic artist. Andy was the only one on the development team that ever played D&D and at least the concept for the Wizard's Eye (the floating eye creature) and the Shrieker were borrowed from D&D. The character classes (fighter, wizard, priest, ninja) were also modeled on D&D. There were probably some other subtle influences, but really not as much as is probably perceived. What we did take directly from D&D was the name Dungeon Master after realizing that TSR never copyrighted or trademarked the term. It was an admittedly blatant attempt to gain some name recognition, although for a while at least, the term Dungeon Master was better known because of the computer game than because of D&D. (As a side note, FTL had brief discussions with TSR about having TSR market the game. During these discussions we showed a prerelease version of Dungeon Master to TSR, so TSR had their opportunity to object to the name and didn't.) -- Doug Bell 07:42, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
To be fair, Dungeon Master (the computer game) didn't play at all like D&D. It was a world all to itself :). --Pelladon 23:31, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Both Chaos Strikes Back and Dungeon Master II claim to be THE sequel to Dungeon Master. I note that we have avoided attempting to resolve the dispute here -- should we just fall back on their release dates ('89 and '93, respectively), making Dungeon Master II the THIRD Dungeon Master game? (I suspect the naming conflict exists for reasons analogous to Nintendo's re-numbering of Square's Final Fantasy games in US release.) Pseudo Intellectual 11:44, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

There is not much of conflict, actually. Chaos Strikes Back was an expansion to Dungeon Master, not a sequel. At least it was marketed as such - "Expansion Set #1" is written on the front cover and the back cover says "requires Dungeon Master". Still, the game could be run without DM, but the documentation of the original game was required to play it. TerokNor 12:52, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Made a note in Chaos Strikes Back to reflect that. Thanks for helping to clear it up! Pseudo Intellectual

[edit] Sega Genesis?

User:Doug Bell (apparently the Doug Bell, nice) added Sega Genesis as a platform. Can Doug or anyone else prove the existence of a Genesis version? I have never heard of one. Various collector's lists (like Digital Press) don't mention one. There are no ROM dumps available. If a Genesis/Mega Drive version exists, where was it released? US, Europe, Japan, somewhere else? I know that DM2 exists for the Sega CD, but that is a different game and a different system. Unless I see some box art, I'm not ready to believe that the Genesis version exists. TerokNor 12:43, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Actually, you are correct, the Sega Genesis was only released for DM II for the Sega Genesis Mega Drive. I don't know what I was thinking :-) I've removed the reference. Doug Bell 16:32, 6 January 2006 (UTC)


[edit] NOT THE FIRST ONE!!!

In my opinion DUNGEON MASTER CANNOT be considered the First 3d real time Rpg. I think this title deserve to ALTERNATE REALITY Rpg series by Phil Price, on Atari ST and Commodore 64.

User: Leodegrance, 8th May, 2006


That's true; Alternate Reality (for the 8-Bit Ataris) predated it by a number of years. However, you could argue that combat and other such interations were largely turn-based. 24.91.189.134 18:54, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

That's not exactly true: AR series had a combat system that was of "real time turns": you had a fixed amount of time to make your choice, if you where too slow, you'll lose your turn. Something very similar to the "live" turns of Dungeon Master.

User: Leodegrance, 17 May, 2006

If the world stops while you "take your turn", then by definition, it's not real time—it's turn based. In Dungeon Master the world never stopped and waited for you—not while sleeping, not while looking through your inventory, and certainly not while you were presented with your "turn" to do something. In DM there are no turns...you can take any action, or not, at any time. So I think the previous designation as the first 3D realtime RPG is valid, unless there is another example other than Alternate Reality. —Doug Bell talk•contrib 05:54, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

What about Dyna Micro's Dungeons of Daggorath (1982)? It definitely predates this game. --Matt 21:51, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Dungeons of Daggorath would definitely qualify as the first realtime 3D first person game. The only quibble might be that it was wireframe graphics. --Aaron 1 April, 2007

I changed the article to say that Dungeon Master is 'widely considered' to be the first. Until someone can actually prove otherwise I think it should stay as such
Cabe6403 14:13, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
I disagree. Wikipedia does not have a "true until proven otherwise" policy. In fact, policy leans much more towards deleting statements that are unsourced. That goes double when weasel words such as "widely considered" are used. So I removed the comment from the code that it's "widely considered until proven otherwise" and replaced it with an "attribution needed" tag. - furrykef (Talk at me) 07:14, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

In my opinion the first one is AD&D Treasure of Tarmin on the Intellivision, although I admit that I never played Dungeons of Daggorath. - User: Falconeer

[edit] Languages

This article mentions that the game was translated from English into German, French, Japanese, Chinese and Korean. I have never heard of any Chinese or Korean versions. Doug, can you confirm if these translations ever existed? on which platforms? Thanks, Christophe (from The DM and CSB Encyclopaedia web site)

I can definitely confirm it. These two versions were handled by two different companies, respectively, and I no longer recall the names of the companies. These were only PC-based versions, although the exact machines and configurations I'm unsure of. If I can get a hold of Wayne Holder, who is the world's worst person about answering the phone and responding to email, he would probably know. I "think" the Chinese company (although perhaps this is the Korean company) was named Unalys (or something phonetically close to it). I think I even have a copy of the Chinese version, but I'll have to dig it out of the box in my closet. But yes, I can unequivacably state that these versions exist. —Doug Bell talk•contrib 18:58, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What is this playfield style called?

I got a question about the playfield style of Dungeon Master. Is there a common term which the pseudo 3D 90degree flip graphic style is called? I would call it just flip3D but maybe there's a better word how this style is called? --sys2074 03:59, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if it has a formal name, but flip3D is pretty similar to how we referred to it. There's even a function in the code with that name. The algorithm for drawing it is a painter's algorithm, although generalized for 2D. (The painter's algorithm as described in Wikipedia is not the generalized one.) —Doug Bell talk 12:44, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unreferenced versions

Interesting. I have no idea where/when Peter Olafson got that information, but it's correct. The Macintosh version was later released for Dungeon Master II: The Legend of Skullkeep. —Doug Bell talk 12:44, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The engine

Belem tower 11:23, 27 June 2007 (UTC)We need tech details about the engine of the game.