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[edit] Discussion

removed the matrix link. whether or not the matrix revolution borrows heavily from dune messiah (and if it does it's in THEME not in STYLE nor in PLOT) is simply a matter of opinion, as is the page the link leads to. If someone would like to find some sort of Academic writing to support that hypothesis and add THAT link, go for it. This is an encyclopedia not a sounding board for opinions. 66.82.9.65 22:17, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removed "Novelinfoboxincomp"

I've just uploaded a new coverscan for the infobox, and entered the missing details, so I've removed the tag.

Gardener of Geda 10:17, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jihad

To back up Gwern's revert, Jihad#Usage of the term expresses the term's broader usage beyond a specifically Muslim holy war, and the Wictionary definition concurs. TAnthony 01:26, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

(sorry, reverted before I saw this discussion, didnt want to start revert war)

It's all well and good that jihad has become anglicized to suit someone's word choice (and perhaps, false sense of cultural awareness), but several points: 1) a person coming upon this site will think that the jihad mentioned by Herbert is related to the jihad of the Muslims, its most oft-cited usage today, which one cannot prove unless you have a credible secondary source, which to my knowledge, has not been discovered.

2) Regardless of how jihad is used today by anyone of any religious or ethnic persuasion, we cannot prove in any way that the jihad of Herbert's Dune universe is in any way, shape, or form related to jihad (of any meaning) in modernity. To link to the jihad article is an obfuscation of the fictional nature of the Dune universe, and will lead the reader to believe that the jihad, any definition used today, are one and the same with Herbert's intended meaning of the word. As for Gwern's revert, I don't think Wikipedia is place to conjecture about Herbert's intended use and meanings, I believe that is a violation of WP:OR. Thanks. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.227.132.178 (talk • contribs) 06:34, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

There's no conjecture here. He uses it at least 44 times in his works, the Fremen are descended from Islamic groups (the Zensunni, remember?), they use Islamic words and concepts - of which jihad is perhaps the most interesting example because of current geo-politics, granted - frequently, Herbert was not an ignorant man and he studied Islam as part of his research for the novels and Dune in particular, Paul's conquest of the Imperium is identified as a holy war and jihad against the unbelievers, etc ad nauseam. To argue it has nothing to do with any of the real-world understandings of the word is ignorant and tendentious in the extreme. --Gwern (contribs) 23:10 26 July 2007 (GMT)

A person who comes to this site and accepts anything on it without checking other sources is a fool, plain and simple. That's the nature of the beast, whatever the good intentions of WP founders and us users.

As envisioned by Frank Herbert, the Fremen are a (fictional) group of future descendants of Muslim people and they have inherited various cultural traditions and concepts from their ancestors. FH used the word "jihad" in the sense of a Holy War, so I fail to see how his usage is NOT connected to the "jihad of the Muslims".

What's the real agenda here, anyway?

I don't see why the word has to be linked in the first place. Why not just link to the Wiktionary entry on jihad, if there is one? --SandChigger 02:03, 27 July 2007 (UTC)