Talk:Duffus Castle
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 |
This article is within the scope of the Scottish Castles WikiProject, which aims to improve Wikipedia's articles on Castles in Scotland. If you would like to help, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see ongoing tasks. |
| B | This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale. |
[edit] "Almost never"
There are many, many references to Flemish knights as "Flandrensis". Other nationalities were also referred to by their country of origin. -Bill Reid | Talk 20:04, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
- Erm, sometimes they are referred to by nationality in writs, but it very rare. BTW, remember that virtually all these knights are foreign. Anyways, in all the charters of William the Lion, only three people are ever called "Flendrensis", yet there are scores of Flemings occuring. You seem to be trying to cast doubt of Freskin's Flemishness; it really isn't doubtful. In Freskin's time, neither Scots nor English have Flemish names; just doesn't happen. Moreover, a bunch of his fellows in Moray are also Flemings (e.g. the Douglases). The guy is a Fleming. Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 03:12, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
- Erm, I note that you have removed the citation tag without giving proof of your statement. Perhaps you could quote the passage from a source so I can check it. I will refrain from reinstating the tag at the moment. On the Freskyn issue, you seem to be implying that the debate on his nationality is cut and dried; it isn't. On the Douglases, I am not aware of Moray hosting such a family--Bill Reid | Talk 12:39, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
- It's not the kind of thing you can cite. Just go through the charters (relevant here, Regesta Regum Scotorum vols. i & ii, and Archibald Lawrie's Early Scottish Charters) and find out for yourself. Regarding the Douglases, you'll get some info on the article Bricius de Douglas. The Douglases, a Flemish family, brough the Flemish name Archibald (Arkenbald) into Scotland. Freskin's nationality is pretty cut-and-dry. His name means that he must be Flemish or of Flemish background, the Chronology means he must be first generation, and the context effectively proves both. Regards, Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 12:49, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
- OK thanks, I'll try and get my hands on these references. We don’t know Friskyn from contemporary sources at all and its only through his children that we know he existed and none of them held their hands up and said “by the way, dad was a Fleming”. So someone plucked this out of the air. His eldest son was called William MacFrisgyn which may suggest a celtic origin. This MacFrysgan witnessed the charter of lands to Theobald de Flandrensis in the neighbouring estate of Innes by Malcolm IV in 1160. Within a generation, they called themselves ‘de Innes’, just as the de Moravias did so its hardly surprising that the term ‘Flandrensis’ wasn’t in great use by the time of William I. Similarly, absolutely no mention of the Douglases until the appearance of William Dufglas in a charter by the Bishop of Glasgow in 1175. You refer to Arkenbald but anything I’ve read on the subject says the person in question was Theobald the Fleming. In The Great Historic Families of Scotland, Taylor states that this hypothesis that Theobald founded the Douglas dynasty was first introduced by Chalmers and had no foundation. Even the Douglases themselves don’t subscribe to this idea. Its just like Freskyn – we have no idea where these people came from. Thanks, --Bill Reid | Talk 10:37, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
- It's not the kind of thing you can cite. Just go through the charters (relevant here, Regesta Regum Scotorum vols. i & ii, and Archibald Lawrie's Early Scottish Charters) and find out for yourself. Regarding the Douglases, you'll get some info on the article Bricius de Douglas. The Douglases, a Flemish family, brough the Flemish name Archibald (Arkenbald) into Scotland. Freskin's nationality is pretty cut-and-dry. His name means that he must be Flemish or of Flemish background, the Chronology means he must be first generation, and the context effectively proves both. Regards, Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 12:49, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
- Erm, I note that you have removed the citation tag without giving proof of your statement. Perhaps you could quote the passage from a source so I can check it. I will refrain from reinstating the tag at the moment. On the Freskyn issue, you seem to be implying that the debate on his nationality is cut and dried; it isn't. On the Douglases, I am not aware of Moray hosting such a family--Bill Reid | Talk 12:39, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
