Talk:Duenos Inscription

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[edit] Authority?

Whose reading or translation is this? I myself am aware of quite a different one which makes some sense actually as well:

A: io uei sat deiuos qoi med mitat nei ted endo cosmis uirco sied

  "May the Gods, Jove, Vejove, and Saturn (grant) that Proserpine to whom they suffer this vase to be despatched, show thee no favor"

B: asted noisi ope toitesiai pacari uois

  "unless thou art indeed willing to make thy peace with Ops Toitesia".

C: duenos med feced en manom einom duenoi ne med malo statod

  "Duenos made me (as a curse) against Manus and let no evil fall to Duenos from me".

It is found in an old article by R. Seymour Conway in AJPh 10 (1889), 445-459. I know my Latin and my training in comparative linguistics does not lag far behind either, but I am no expert to tell really on matters of inscriptions; Conway's scholarship as presented does not seem flawed to me at least. Does the version presented here refute Conway's, does it update it, does it take at all into account? Also I would like to point out that "Duenos" cannot be "bene" (an adverb) it could at best be taken as "Benus", which is meaningless in Classical Latin Lucius Domitius 02:58, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Wow, that 1889 reading seems terribly speculative to me... and a little, um, overcreative. Also, my understanding is that Duenos is ancestral to Bonus, but don't beat me if I'm wrong; the Archaic Latin is ouside my expertise. On second thought, the 1889 reading seems no less speculative than the one in the article, if perhaps too florid. I mean, really, "(grant) that Proserpine to whom they suffer this vase to be despatched" for qoi med mitat.... uirco? That's pushing it. Ddama 09:18, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
Well, yes the "to whom they suffer etc" part is rather florid and overcreative (it is more commentary than translation", but I find no fault in the rest. I will check a few other articles and get back to it, though I would really prefer that this be done by an expert on inscriptions. Lucius Domitius 12:12, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

"Jove, Vejove, and Saturn" is definitely a fabrication. It's unfortunate that the Romans had that habit of abbreviating nearly every word they wrote-- you can basically read anything into the inscription. Ashibaka tock 03:59, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

The listed translation/interpretation is by H. Eichner. An interesting article on it can be found here: http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/pies/pdfs/IESV/1/BV_Duenos.pdf (simple google search). This may not be the best representation that could be offered to an individual interested in this topic if nothing further is offered regarding the translation. A more complete translation would be more appropriate, especially considering that the historical community has not yet decided upon any specific translation (and likely never will...).Pheonix2og 11:30, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Second line

There's no translation at all, however speculative, of the second line in the main article. Anyone? Benet Allen 19:18, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

My German is not very good and the Babel/Google translations are horrible. If someone speaks German, please read the German translation at the (German) link and reword what is in line two as this seems a poor translation (and I cannot find that Eichner, from whom the translation comes, actually offered any meaning for this second line).Pheonix2og 11:30, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] When (and how and by whom) was it found on the Quirinal Hill?

Two weeks after it was written? Last week? Michael Hardy 21:25, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

It was found in 1880; looking for more information on the other two questions, but my guess is that Heinrich Dressel found it during an archaeological dig. —Charles P._(Mirv) 21:54, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
confirmation for the first guess. can't find anything for the second, but since Dressel was a well-known archaeologist and published his account of the inscription in an Italian journal of archaeology, it seems reasonable to guess that he found it during a dig. —Charles P._(Mirv) 22:32, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Confusing sentence

...and the Romans inscriptions were used to be abbreviated, no one can be certain exactly what it says.'

What is trying to be conveyed by this sentence? Are the Romans "used to" writing in an abbreviated fashion? If that's the case, that sentence needs cleaning up. I would edit it, but I'd like to know what's being said. Joemaza 23:49, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I've edited this (see newest addition -> "Cleanup / Edits").Pheonix2og 11:30, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Possible Hyperlink Error?

At the bottom of this article is a link to the Praenestine fibula, which in turn has a link to the Viminal vessel, which in turn leads back to this article of Duenos Inscription. Was this article originaly called Viminal vessel, or something like that, or is this possible just a hyperlink screwup? And if this was originaly called Viminal vessel, shouldn't something like that be in the article?

208.98.216.211 09:47, 25 January 2007 (UTC)NTF

A.D. Fraser, in 1932, describes the "vessel" as having been found between the Viminal and Quirinal Hills in Rome. The actual object is three vases/bowls that are situated in a triangular form as portrayed in the image in the main article. I presume someone did not know the proper name and simply referred to it as the Viminal vessel following some early historian/archeologist's naming scheme as the entire object is a vessel and not simply an inscription - the inscription seems to be the more important part of the discovery and "The Duenos Inscription" is the title of MANY articles detailing its inscription and importance. Hope this helps. It is probably best to change the listing on the Praenestine fibula page to "The Duenos Inscription." I have, thus, changed it - and assuming some response is offered to my alterations/feedback, I will add info to the article regarding Viminal vessel/Hills nomenclature.Pheonix2og 11:30, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Alphabet

The article should mention which alphabet is used? Etruscan alphabet? --84.20.17.84 12:14, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I am not 100% certain as to the alphabet used, but it appears to be classical Etruscan, and I believe I remember having read this in an article tonight... Can anyone else elaborate?Pheonix2og 11:30, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup / Edits

I have made some grammatical changes and general clean up work to make this article more closely resemble the Wikipedia format - I admit that I'm not completely familiar with it, so please re-edit as necessary. I made these changes, mostly, because I felt that this article was a little too familiar with the audience/reader and not so much an objective or encyclopedic entry. Please revert if you feel I was wrong - or simply edit what I may have edited incorrectly.

Beyond the grammatical/format entries, I did have a couple of questions:

Could someone elaborate on who proposed this translation - give some information or an argument at least as to why this is the translation currently accepted enough to be listed here? Or should we include as many (all....?) translations that we can find? I have several that I could include (this would eventually not be very viable as there are around 50 that I know of - some very similar), with working source links to articles stored on JSTOR. Please give me some feedback on this, it would be greatly appreciated.

Next; One edit I made was to add "sections." The "Notes" section (I could not derive a better title), seems like random bits of trivia that could better be incorporated into this article elsewhere. I would gladly do this (as I do have some direction as provided by the research sources I've found on JSTOR) assuming those involved with the creation and maintenance of this page would be interested. I realize that this is a completely community edited "encyclopedia," however, some people tend to get territorial about articles and cite changes or removals as vandalism. Does anyone else have anything further to add to this "Notes" section to expand it or should I incorporate it into another section or remove the "notes" altogether?

Lastly, I've offered several responses to many of the questions/problems posed here in this discussion, please note these and respond as necessary (most of my arguments are summarized in the above three paragraphs).

Again, any/all input would be greatly appreciated. I won't make any further changes until I receive some feedback. Thanks.Pheonix2og 11:30, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Picture is back to front?

Is the graphic a mirror image of the inscription? Should it be? Needs some explanation anyway.

[edit] What are the circles?

How and why are there circles in the picture?

[edit] Correct category?

Please see Category talk:Earliest known manuscripts by language. Enaidmawr (talk) 01:02, 29 November 2007 (UTC)