Talk:Dubrovnik

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[edit] Dubrovnik Republic

the language in dubrovnik was ilyrian and the written languáge was latin.ragusa is iliryan.... my name is arben i am a ilyrian from dardania--kosova-dubrovnik is an ancient ilyrian city of dalmacia and since the 11th centery it is slavic.Tell the truth about the dubrovnik do not go around the history....arben from sweden albanian from kosova or ilyrian from dardania. This kind of a discussion is now also at Talk:Republic of Ragusa.

The mention of "Dubrovnik Republic" strikes me as anachronistic. Would it be better "Ragusa Republic" or Reppublica di Ragusa (sp?)? -- Error

No, it was actually Dubrovnik Republic because apparently by that time the Slavic population had basically overwhelmed the Romanic one even within the city. --Shallot 02:45, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)

But wasn't Italian the official language until quite recently? -- Error 03:21, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Uh, no? Dubrovnik has not been under Venetian authority since 1358.

In fact some of the most renown Croatian writers of the middle ages were from Dubrovnik, like Ivan Gundulić, Marin Držić, Julije Palmotić... of course, most of them knew Italian and/or Latin, but that was not their mother tongue. --Shallot 15:22, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I may be wrong, but my impression was that Ragusa was independent until Napoleon, and the language of the city and especiall of the ruling class was Italian (some dialect?), no matter what ethnic origin their families had. On the other hand, http://www.croatia.hr/travelguide/index.php?menu=188& has Mentioned for the first time in documents of Bosnian ban Kulin in 1189, the town was completely croatised by the 14th century. In that century, the municipality of Dubrovnik (Communitas Ragusina) became the Republic of Dubrovnik (Republica Ragusina), -- Error

Yes, I believe that is what I said. The Slavs (without even getting into the whole "holy war" of whether they were Croat, Serb or whatever) had lived in the hinterland since the 7th century, and by the 14th/15th/16th century, they gradually moved within the city walls and merged with the Roman population already there. They weren't your "standard" barbarians that looted and pillaged everything -- they coexisted with the Romanic people and peacefully made their way into the civilization, which also meant that they didn't object to the use of Italian and/or Latin. If I were them, I would have kept Ragusa markings on all that merchant marine and diplomatic missions for the simple reason that it was well known and probably more understandable to potential customers and allies. That, however, doesn't mean the city wasn't called Dubrovnik. --Shallot 10:41, 3 Sep 2003 (UTC)

It also occurs to me that you may think that terms Ragusa and Dubrovnik aren't synonymous -- but they are. --Shallot 10:43, 3 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I thought that Dubrovnik wasn't official -- Error 02:27, 5 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Since these pages are in english, i think it would be better to put both names, both Italian and Croatian ones; Republic of Dubrovnik / Republic of Ragusa.

Official language of the Republic was Latin and Italian. Though population spoke Croatian language (Slavic). Since I was born and live in Dubrovnik, it was a shock to see Serbian language on this page. This is an attempt of Serbian radical nationalist to "claim" this town as Serbian. But actually this was never true. If we assume modern nations developed in 19th century in this part of the world, I can't understand how this town could ever be considered as Serbian. If you read ANY litteral work from THAT time (Middle Ages) of the finest Dubrovnik/Ragusan poets and writers, you would have seen they spoke purely Croatian language.

Lot of proofmaterial for Croathood of Dubrovnik is on the Talk:Republic of Dubrovnik. Kubura 09:13, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Maybe one thing can help to solve mystery about language in Dubrovnik. Mother of one of the most pronminent citizens of The City - Ivan Gundulić left her last will handwritten in Croatian language, which she considered her language. And do not forget that she was fluent in Venetian dialect of italian language- we are forgetting that italian language was divided at that time. --Billy the lid 08:49, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Languages

It would be nice to have a section on the roles of languages in Dubrovnik along history: Latin, Dalmatian, Serbocroat, Venetian, Judaeo-Spanish, Turkish,... -- Error 02:27, 5 Sep 2003 (UTC)

[edit] St. Blasius

About this debate, I must refresh memory of everyone reading that Dubrovnik had a slavic Croat tribe population that was melt together with population from Epidaurum- Greek, Ilir and Byzanthine mixture. Dubrovnik also traded and had strong diplomatic conection with Constantinopulus and was unther his protection for some time. Also after fall of Constantinopulus it is belived that some people escaped to Dubrovnik (Ragusa Republic).

After all of this influece of Byzanth it is plain stupid to say that the serbs influenced the name st. Blasius who is patron of the city from the fundation of the city in 7th century when serbs still wasn't even in these areas, and bececome christians for centuries later!

They shown their influence on culture when they destroyed the city!

My grandfather name was is Vlaho, and I am proud to be Croat from Dubrovnik

First of all Shallot, your knowledge of Catholic Martyrology is quite poor, the patron saint of Ragusa was St. Blasius, he wasn't even a Slav, let alone a Croat.

However, the translation from Blasius into Vlaho is purely Serbian. As an avid contributor to the them of a Croatian language should also remember that the official Zagreb transliteration dictates that all Greek beta's be read as B whereas the Serbs follow the Greek pronounciations. Thus we have Byzantium (Serb: Vizantija whereas in the official Croat it is Bizant(ija)), barbarian (Serb: varvari, Croat: barbari), St. Barbara (Serb: Sv. Varvara, Croat: Sv. Barbara), Basil (Serb: Vasilije. Thus, Sv. Vlaho is Serbian. Besides, doesn't the Croat Catholic Church refer to St. Blasius as Sv. Blažo? So what is the deal now, are you sticking to Croat or Serbian? Don't imply that someone is forcing you to use the Serb transliteration! So what seems to be problem? Well, I was ready to settle on Serbo-Croat but as long as we are splitting hairs let us then split them accordingly, Serbian it is.

Regards

Igor 1:02 7 Sep 2003 (UTC)

It is still hilarious that you would insist on this being Serbian when it's so consistently used in Dubrovnik, which is a city whose dialect is more or less the definition of how to speak Croatian. Yeah, I suppose you'd go on and tell me how anything Croatian is just a figment of our collective imagination, it's all actually Serbian. If all this wasn't so very funny, it would be so very sad. --Shallot 11:05, 7 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Dubrovnik's local dialect is the Eastern Herzegovinian which is spoken by some 3 million Orthodox Serbs. In Croatia and Bosnia themselves, as a rule of thumb, it can be used as a criterium in order to distinguish the Orthodox from the Muslims and Catholics who speak other dialects or languages altoghether (chakavian, kajkavian). The precarious position of Dubrovnik and its surrounding was caused by the Ragusan Republic which was by law a Roman Catholic state, one could not become a citizen of Ragusa without being of Catholic faith and the Ragusans Catholicized former Orthodox-populated regions in their surroundings (Konavli, Peljesac, Ston) after they had purchased them from the Serbian Nemanjic dynasty.

If the Dubrovnik dialect is "more or less the definition of how to speak Croatian" why is it that the Croat Catholic Church translates St. Blasius as St Blažo and not St. Vlaho as is the case in Dubrovnik?

sincerely

Igor 1:31, 11 Sep 2003 (UTC)

This is another case of blatant pan-Serbism that Croats and Bosniaks are really sick of. The ability of extremist Serbs to take near everything Croats happen to share with them and call it Serbian, and only Serbian, is astounding.

Well you, Mir Harven are other Croats who wrote that whole piece about the distinction between Serbian and Croatian, Milan Rešetar, a leading Ragusologist (Dubrovnik historian and linguist) once said about Dubrovnik that it is both Serbian and Croatian because those two are one people really but that Dubrovnik can only be Serbian should one really split the two. You claim that Croatian has nothing to do with Serbian, vehemently correct any mix of the two, so do not be a hypocrite and ask for a compromise (Serbo-Croatian) in this case. -- User:Igor 22:31, 2 Feb 2003 (UTC)

Nice that our "friend" had mentioned this Rešetar's claim. Here we go: 1. Milan Resetar was a Croatian philologist of old, neogrammarian school. He studied in Vienna and Berlin, and early in his youth accepted pan-Serbian "linguistic" ideology of Vuk Karadzic. So, he declared himself, in his 20s and 30s, to be "Serb Catholic". Fine. Later, he changed his identification to "Yugoslav". These facts only testify about Resetar's problems with national identity-and not about anything else. 2. Resetar was later, after his retirement from Zagreb University (where he edited some Dubrovnik writers like Drzic for Academy's edition "Old Croatian writers"), a resident in Florence- in Mussolini's Italy. 3. following the defeat of Yugoslavia in 1941 and creation of pro-Nazi and Fascist puppet NDH (Independent state of Croatia), this former "Serb Catholic" panicked about his pension. But, thanks to the intervention of his pupil, Croatian linguist and theatrologist Franjo Fancev, Resetar (Serb-Catholic, Yugoslav) was granted the continuation of pension which he received until his death (he died shortly after the Fancev's intervention). More- he had agreed to be elected among first 10 members of newly created-transformed Croatian Academy of Sciences in 1941. 4. Resetar's famous (famous because Serbian propagandists frequently quote it) claim about the nature of language-dialect spoken in historical Dubrovnik is reflection of his Serbian loyalties and confusions from his youth he never got rid of. It's not a reflection of an "old scholar" about the state of the matter after years of study, but an emotional throwback of an old man still confused about his identity. His ethno-philological dogma and confusion led him frequently to scientifically wrong conclusions- one of the most (in)famous being Resetar's desperate struggle to prove that Chakavian and Ikavian traits, which abound in the Renaissance literature in Dubrovnik, were never actually spoken. At first glance- this might look like an unnecessary trifling. But not for dogmatics like Resetar who accepted the Serbian ethnic atribution of Shtokavian dialect (a discarded dogma of early Slavic studies)- and Chakavian traits, which are indisputably ethnically Croatian, should not be here, in works of Dubrovnik writers. And they are, despite Resetar's troubles with that fact. Only- this also doesnt mean much since Shtokavian dialect is not ethnically atributed (just like Platteutsch or Hindustani), and Resetar wasted his time to disprove Croathood of the Renaissance Dubrovnik by focusing on Chakavian dialect- which is not something decisive as Resetar had imagined it to be. 5. later linguists, better versed in historical linguistics and equipped with broader modern apparatus (structural linguistics, newer materials galore, not burdened with Resetar's Serbian philological addictions,..) have stated things very differently: from Croatian linguists like Katicic and Brozovic to Dutch Van den Berk or German Auburger. As far as historical linguistics is concerned, Resetar's casual remarks (and much more, for that matter) are history.Mir Harven 12:04, 2

Feb 2004 (UTC)

RASETAR'S REMARKS ARE NOT HISTORY. SHALLOWMINDED PEOPLE LIKE YOU, WHO TALK NONSENSE AND DIVIDE ONE BEAUTIFUL LANGUAGE-SERBOCROATIAN TO 2 OR MORE, YOU ARE HISTORY!

I got bored of this game ages ago. Try looking up "distinction" in a dictionary, stop imagining that you saw me say something that I did not, stop twisting everything and incorporating it as some sort of universal truth into your political agenda, ... the list goes on and on. --Shallot 23:09, 1 Feb 2004 (UTC)

And throw in a few mischievous lies like the above (that vast majority of self-professed Croats in Dubrovnik say crkva svetog Vlaha all right, see for example [1] [2] [3]...) and a "sincerely" to put sugar on the top, you've got a very cute little propaganda piece. Your tutors would probably be very proud. --Shallot 15:33, 11 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I second Shallot's comments, I am reverting this back to Croatia. This kind of history fabrication based on loose facts is an example of an all-inclusive attempt of cultural assimilation where it is enough for any of the data or links to even loosely point to an entity to automatically become somehow a comprising part of that entity. Igor, you have not provided any reasonable references and, furthermore, modern encyclopedias, language and culture studies counter your hear-say "evidence." This change of yours I would have considered as a quite amuzing and humorous display of nationalism, if it did not look motivated by the rhetoric propagaded by rabid Serbian nationalists, now being on trials for genocide in the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia. --yakov

I see a linguistic dabbling here. Sveti Vlaho is not etymologically derived in the usual way Croatian differs from Serbian in examples like Bizant/Vizantija; Betlehem/Vitlejem; Barbara/Varvara,...St. Blasius has an equivalent in Serbian "Blažo", and in Croatian "Blaž", which can be seen (especially the former example) in numerous Montenegrin/Serbian names (Blažo Jovanović etc.).

My dear friend Mir Harven seems as confused as ever, there is no Serbian name such as Blažo that's why he can not name more than one example. Blazo in this case is a nickname for Blagota. Blagota 'Blažo' Jovanović was the full name. -- User:Igor 22:31, 2 Feb 2003 (UTC)

Vlaho is a Dubrovnik regionalism,

I agree, Serbian language thus. -- User:Igor 22:31, 2 Feb 2003 (UTC)

This folksy etymology is not confirmed anywhere else. The origin of the name "Sv. Vlaho" is explained in works of etymologists like Petar Skok or Petar Šimunović. Originally a saint from 2-3. cent. in "Greek" East, the saint's name is in Greek "'Agios Vlasios". Since during the formative period of Dubrovnik culture (10.-11. cent.) Byzantine influence was strong in and around Dubrovnik, St.Blasius's (Vlasios's) name prevailed in "Greek form", especially because it coalesced with popular Slavic pre-Christian god Volos or Veles. This is virtually the only instance that Greek rather than Latin form prevailed in word-formation- but it has nothing to do with Serbian language structure. Nowhere in the Orthodox cultural circle Blasius (or Vlasios) is referred to as "Vlaho", and especially in predominantly Orthodox neighboring countries like Montenegro or Western Serbia. As for Dubrovnik, all names that show that Greek influence waned quickly, and this can be seen in the fact that Benedict did not become Venedikt, Barbara -Varvara etc. The difference between Croatian and Serbian languages in word-formation re originally Greek names or concepts is that Croatian followed Latin, and Serbian Greek forms (August vs. Avgust, Benedikt vs Venedikt, ..). Dubrovnik's form "Vlaho" is the example of Greek influence that lasted more than century and is not reflected in other names. Hence, this is not an example of linguistic trait characteristic of a language (because it would have prevailed in other onomastic features-as it did in Serbian language), but the single signifier of Byzantine cultural influence that was soon replaced by a mixture of Latin-Roman and Slavic.Mir Harven 12:04, 2 Feb 2004 (UTC)

and for the more etymology one can consult Petar Šimunović or Petar Skok onomastic and etymological dictionaries. This "Vlaho folksy etymology" is just ignorance. Mir Harven 09:56, 21 Dec 2003 (UTC)

This Blasius=Vlaho cos B=V is a joke? Something else is in the matter here. No need for some special science. There are 2 term words in unofficial Croatian speaking of Kvarner, Dalmatia and Dubrovnik area (almost all Croatian seaside) which have these meanings: Bodul = islander; Vlah (Kvarner, southern Dalmatia), Vlaho(Dubrovnik) or Vlaj (Vlajo) (northern and central Dalmatia) = inhabitant of the hills on the continental coastal side. These term words are very old and probably in usage for a long time epecially among coastal cities population. The point is that Helenisation and much more Romanisation of Illyrian tribes in the eastern Adriatic coast (5th b.c. - 7th centuries) were the processes mainly concentrated in the coastal cities which have made these cities become cultural centres of the area and citizens feel much more "civilised" than the fishermen Boduls or peysants Vlahs (Vlajs). It's very important that these Vlahs (Vlajs) have nothing to do with ethnic Vlachs! From citizen point of view Vlahs were all the people living "behind the hill". Why is that? Simply because of the fact that ethnic Vlachs are known in Dalmatia, as early as Illyrian ages, as traders who were travelling by trade caravans from eastern Balkans to Dalmatian cities and back. Since their look, knowledgement, cultural level was inferior to the one of Romanized Illyrian citizens "Vlach" became a name with sarcastic and ironical tone. In the same time Illyrian non-city population was not even romanized, settled in the hills, they looked pretty same to "prepotent" romanized citizens as ethnic Vlachs did. By the time all of them who were coming to cities to sell agriculture products and who were coming from "behind the hill" got the name Vlah or Vlaj. Bodul and Vlah (Vlaj) are still in massive usage and still have some sarcastic tone when spoken.

Back to Blasius-Vlasius joke. St. Blasius was born in Armenia and came to Dubrovnik from "behind the hill". That was quite enough for Dubrovnik citizens to give him a "proper" name - Vlaho. Once given this name he couldn't lose it to the end of his life...

There should be article "1000 miracles of Serbian imagination and related propaganda" linked to any Croatian article!!!83.131.153.141 16:11, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I am thinking about following scenario:

when Nikola Jakorukić (allias Neil Armstrong) stepped on the Moon he said: This is small step for Serbian, and big for big Serbia. But the history Quoted him wrong--Billy the lid 08:59, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Siege end

Mir Harven, to the best of my recollection, the breaking of the siege of Dubrovnik happened after most of Bosnian Posavina was surrendered. I've got friends who served on the southern front at the time and they told me that the 1st Guards Brigade arrived after the news that Bosanski Brod fell. Is that not true? --Shallot 00:10, 2 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Ugh ? You're serious ? This is an "argument" ?Mir Harven 12:04, 2 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Argument? I'm not talking about this strictly in a manner of some sort of territory trade, but of some pretty simple war waging -- delivering supplies and reinforcements to troups in a flatland that is Bosanska Posavina under shelling from Motajica and probably other hills (whose simple virtue of being elevated ground I assume made it a very desirable position to have artillery on) was rather hard and probably declared a battle that couldn't be won, and troops were reassigned to Dubrovnik which was in a similarly bad situation but due to the fact it was a World Heritage site and the accompanying media attention probably was a much smarter place to apply particular pressure to. --Shallot 22:35, 2 Feb 2004 (UTC)

And that must be proof enough for a conspiracy theorist such as yourself :) -- Igor 23:51, 2 Feb 2004 (UTC)

That's very funny. I guess it's not reasonable to expect you to try actually thinking with your head, you never seem to stray from the party line... --Shallot 22:35, 2 Feb 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Population figure for Austrian period

The total (as listed in the article) comes out to 416 000 Ragusans! This should be fixed. Its way too high of a number especially comparing it to today's numbers. Also good job guys on listing the purity of every Croatian town on wiki. Great job on enhancing your ethnic purity! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gkmx (talk • contribs) 22:53, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] link with the rest of Croatia?

From the article and the maps on Croatia, it looks like Dubrovnik and vicinity is disjoint from the main part of Croatia due to the sea access of Bosnia and Herzegovina just north of it. Could anyone add something to the article about link/communication with the rest of Croatia? Is the Dubrovnik area basically cut off, or is there a lot of traffic between the two? Is there guaranteed passage across the Bosnia/Herzegovina territory; do people have to show passports and cross checkpoints; or is transit mainly accomplished by sea; etc. --Delirium 06:41, Mar 1, 2004 (UTC)

This would be suitable on the page of the Dubrovnik-Neretva county. I'll write something up over there. --Shallot 11:40, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)

You indeed have to cross Bosnia and Herzegovina around Neum if you want to travel to the rest of Croatia from Dubrovnik, and there are passport controls. Croatia is however planning to build a bridge to the Peljesac peninsula (the Peljesac bridge) that bypasses Bosnian territory. Maarten 00:24, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

There are no passport controls for Croatian citizens. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.147.99.137 (talk) 08:10, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] casualties

The referenced http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/comexpert/ANX/XI-A.htm#VII.C clearly states and restates that their casualty data is approximated and incomplete due to lack of information with respect to their nature. The HR Red Cross information comes from their work in the field so it's certainly no less accurate. --Joy [shallot] 15:36, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] strip of land

The strip of wetland, built in 1667 after an earthquake destroyed most of the city, was later reclaimed as a landfill, unifying the city around the newly made plaza

Freestylefrappe, are you sure that this happened only after the earthquake? I was under the impression that it was done long before that. --Joy [shallot] 11:27, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Dubrava

Correct me if I am mistaken, but I was under the impression dubrava meant glade, referring to a specific part of the penninsula. --Ian 01:16, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Dubrava comes from the term woods of Dub (Oak) Cuercus ilex L. to be exact! Very important tree in Slavic and Iliryc mythology! ----Vladimirko 09:26, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "great damage"

How extensive was the damage to the old city during the war? When I was there five years ago I saw a map that enumerated every shell and bullet that hit the city, and while the damage was widespread, it was mainly to the rooftops; very few buildings were actually destroyed or damaged beyond repair. —Charles P. (Mirv) 16:52, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Five years ago a lot of the damage would already have been repaired; also, it could very well be argued that, for a World Heritage Site, a single building or monument damaged beyond repair constitutes "great damage." Also, even when repair is possible, a 17th-century structure hit in 1991 and restored in 2000 is in artistic, archaeological, historical and cultural terms obviously not the same 17th-century structure it was before the damage and restoration. ~TobyOx~

It really wasn't 'great damage' by any stretch. There were some destroyed buildings, and widespread roof damage, but compared to damage to cities like Mostar or Sarajevo, it was light. Trollderella 17:39, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

I recently went to Dubrovnik and took a photo of the map displayed in the old city, near the eastern entrance (from Revelin). See below.

I don't believe there's any point in making a one-word assessment of this kind of a damage, or comparing it to even worse damage. People who thought it was even a remotely good idea to go ahead and dump hundreds of grenades on this monumental old city are idiots, and criminals. Those like User:Igor who deem this kind of a behaviour something that's barely worth explaining are merely idiots, I guess. --Joy [shallot] 15:16, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] category:destroyed cities

Would it be permissible to add category:destroyed cities to the article page? Others in the category currently include London, Tokyo, San Francisco, Chicago which also have been rebuilt. --Ancheta Wis 02:55, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Decimal point (dot or comma?)

Something I noticed that is a little inconsistant with this article is that in some places it has a comma for the decimal point and some places a dot and even in some places a space. Since this in the English version of the encyclopedia (and US, UK, Canada etc. use the dot) I was thinking it should be a dot. But Croatia uses the comma. --MarsRover 03:56, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Ottavio Missoni was born in Zadar not Dubrovnik! Itallian was not spoken in the Dubrovnik republic. User:emoutofthevee

[edit] America

When did Dubrovnik recognise American independance?

Republic of Dubrovnik was second state in the world which recognised America. Do not forget, that regarding their ecconomical power in trade, their recognition had value of one Japan or Germany today. --Billy the lid 09:05, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Panoramic view

The panoramic view appears to be broken, but I don't want to delete it until I'm sure it's not just me (and if anybody can repair it, that would be better, of course). Digitig 10:28, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Names of attractions

I have some images, but I don't know exatly what is on the photo. Can help me anybody who well know Dubrovnik?

1. What is the name of the cathedral: ? I find this as Velika Gospa cathedral, but what is the international name? At http://wikitravel.org/en/Dubrovnik I found several name to attractions. May it can be the Cathedral of the Assumption of the Virgin Mary, but may at an other page write about a connection with Saint Blaise.

Real name is the Cathedral of the Assumption of the Virgin Mary, but regionally is calld also Velika Gospa cathedral. That is answer on both questions above. --Billy the lid 09:08, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

2. This shows the Sponza Palace? The description writes Rector's Palace. Sponza=rector? Or is that an other building? After my search I think yes, this pictures show the Sponza, the other the Rector's where there are the warmemorial.

This photo shows the Sponza Palace in the distance, face-on, and the Rector's Palace along the right hand side.--Chochotte 20:35, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

3. I found the name of my photos subject: Franciscan Monastery. But at an other pages descript this site as Dominican Monastery! At http://wikitravel.org/en/Dubrovnik there are writing as this is to several monastery, what is the truth?

--Beyond silence 03:38, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dubrovnik named after Dobrons??

Has anybody heard the term dubrava (oak forest)? Kubura (talk) 06:38, 30 April 2008 (UTC)