Talk:Duanwu Festival

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Due to the meagre content of this page, it might be worth considering to merge it with and redirect it to Zongzi#Origins... Malbi

I disagree... it's just been the subject of a featured article on the Id Wikipedia, and there is a lot of information that could be added to what is a very significant festival with very ancient origins.--Sepa 12:10, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, there is a lot more content that could be added here--the agrarian origins of the festival (pre-dating Qu Yuan) and something more about appeasing river dragons, Qu Yuan's later association with the festival, Guo Moruo's political appropriation of Qu Yuan in 1942 and his subsequent lionizing as a "People's Poet," a word on the initial association of the festival with Wu Zixu (later replaced by Qu Yuan), etc. A word explaining the festival date in relation to the lunar calendar would be good too. These points are discussed in David Hawkes, _The Songs of the South_, pp.63-66 (Penguin, 1985), but not in too much detail. Hawkes' book was first published in 1959, and I imagine there should be more recent and detailed research (besides, the focus of Hawkes' book is poetry, not cultural history). Apeman

Contents 1 Actual month? 2 Incorrect tones 3 about egg standing tradition 4 What's wrong with Dragon Boat Festival? 5 Duan Wu Festival 6 Explaining move 7 Requested move 7.1 Survey 7.2 Discussion

[edit] Actual month?

Is the month this usually occurs in June? If so, that should be added to the article. Badagnani 00:19, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it is,

This year it is on 19th of june 2007

[edit] Incorrect tones

端午 is actually duan1wu3 in pinyin, not duan1wu1 as is currently written, but I don't know how to write it with tone markings instead of numbers, so someone else will have to do it!

DoneApeman 17:33, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] about egg standing tradition

making the egg standing vertically on a flat surface is the tradition game in this festival.

69.120.146.217 02:34, 20 June 2007 (UTC)StephenChao

[edit] What's wrong with Dragon Boat Festival?

The name Dragon Boat Festival is well-known in English. Is there any particular reason for shifting it to the Mandarin name? Given that Chinese dialects have different names for this festival, the 'official' Mandarin name doesn't appear to have much over the other names. (I am open to reason on this one -- I realise that Beijing doesn't have dragon boat racing at the time of the festival, but on the other hand, Beijing and the north hardly even follow this festival, except for the zongzi).

Also, User:Yau, when making such important changes, it might be useful to ask first on the discussion page. And changing the name of an article isn't a minor change, which is what you have tagged it.

User:Bathrobe

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[edit] Duan Wu Festival

Thanks for raising a good question here, Bathrobe. However, I'd suggest Duan Wu Festival be used here to incorporate more activities that people do on this day rather than a simple though most popular dragon boat race. I will do a little research and come up with some paragraphes about what other things Chinese do to celebrate this festival. Chrisliu (talk) 17:50, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Explaining move

I hadn't realised that the page title has been an issue in the past. Just explaining my earlier edits:

• "Duanwu/Duan Wu" is now a public holiday across greater China; in each of these jurisdictions, the laws refer to "Duanwu" (or, in Cantonese regions, the Cantonese pronunciation of the same name) -- not to "Dragon Boat" or "Double Fifth". Given that "Duanwu" is not unheard of even in English-speaking countries, and is more accurate than "Dragon Boat", I believe "Duanwu" is the preferrable name.
• Grouping the related Korean, Japanese, and Vietnamese festivals under "Double Fifth" is problematic. "Double Fifth" is not a generic name. It seems to be a specific name for the festival used in some contexts. So, it seems, that while the holiday in Taiwan (and perhaps elsehwere) has been referred to as "Double Fifth", in Korea, Japan or Vietname the related festivals are not necessarily called this.
• On the other hand, the Vietnamese and Korean names at least are the local pronunciations of the Chinese name, so they are more related to "Duanwu" than "Double Fifth" - hence they should be linked from here, not a "Double Fifth" dab page.

Cheers, --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 03:48, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I originally challenged the unilateral and undiscussed move to Duanwu from Dragon Boat Festival. That was actually quite a while ago. After I raised the issue, someone decided that it belonged at Dragon Boat Festival after all and peremptorily moved it back. I was merely trying to open a discussion as to the best name in an English-speaking context, not trying to force the issue one way or another.

I'm not totally opposed to Duanwu, just concerned that settling on it as standard is a kind of mindless "Mandarin standardisation". I am also certainly not proposing "Double Fifth" as the standard name, merely trying to keep it in the article. For some reason people keep deleting it, usually on the grounds that they've never heard of it personally. It took me one minute to find a web page using the term "Double Fifth".

Given that China has now adopted many traditional Han Chinese festivals, including Duanwu, as national holidays, I think there's better reason than before for switching to Duanwu. "Dragon Boat Festival", despite being more popular in English-speaking countries, is probably too specific to use as the name of the festival for the whole of China. (Specific in the sense that it covers only one aspect of the festival).

Bathrobe (talk) 08:56, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

Duanwu Festival → Dragon Boat Festival — The article should be moved to Dragon Boat Festival as per Wikipedia naming convention of 'Use English Words' and 'Use common names of person and things' —Mr.Clown (talk) 11:34, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

• Support per nomination (WP:UE and WP:UCN) and because previous move from Dragon Boat Festival to Duanwu Festival and back and forth were undiscussed. See also discussion below. — AjaxSmack 00:34, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
• Opppose More precise, official name is preferred in the case of competing English names. As discussed below, "Dragon Boat Festival" often means a specific dragon boating competition, rather than the festival itself - and these competitions may or may not be on the same day, or even be meaningfully related, to the cultural festival. In this sense, keeping the article where it is now avoids confusion between the two meanings of the term "Dragon Boat Festival". --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 03:47, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

It is not a case of competing English names as Duanwu is not English but merely a transliteration, also there are precedents in the case of other chinese festival such as Double Ninth Festival, Mid-Autumn Festival and Chinese New Year Mr.Clown (talk) 09:08, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Not true: see google results below. All of the examples you raised are translations of the Chinese name - or a Chinese name; as such, they are a fair representation of what the festival is and is called. "Dragon Boat Festival" is at best a nickname. It's like calling "Chinese New Year" the "Fireworks Festival". --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 10:05, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

But Chinese New Year is not commonly called "Fireworks Festival" in English. The current situation with this article as "Duanwu" is like calling "Chinese New Year" "Chunjie." "Dragon Boat Festival" is not a nickname and, while it may not be an exact translation of the Chinese (like "Boxer Rebellion" and many other terms) or the form official sanctioned by the Chinese Communist Party, it is both English and the common name which are good reasons for the title to be located there. — AjaxSmack 01:11, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

It's inaccurate, because "Dragon Boat Festival" describes only one aspect of the holiday - which, as Bathrobe points out below - is only practised in some regions. It is confusing, because "Dragon Boat Festival" seems to be used in many other parts of the world to mean a particular dragon boating competition, which may or may not be related or on the same day as Duanwu. In Sydney, we have our "Dragon Boat Festival" on Chinese New Year, because the water is a tad cold at Duanwu.

Duanwu is not like "chunjie", because nobody ever uses "chunjie" in English, whereas "Duanwu Festival" does find some usage in English. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 06:31, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

It's not up to Wikipedia to determine "accuracy" of established terminology; an encyclopedia should be descriptive, not prescriptive. I may argue that the Boxer Rebellion had no boxers or that Ghost Festival has no ghosts but those are the well-established common English names for those subjects and Wikipedia should reflect that usage.

Furthermore usage of "Dragon Boat Festival" is not restricted to events surrounding the actual racing of boats as you claim. "Chartered flights between the mainland and Taiwan for the upcoming Dragon Boat Festival have gotten underway."[1], "people who are volunteering to work in quake-hit Sichuan Province during the Dragon Boat Festival holiday" [2], "Miluo is the birth place of the Dragon Boat Festival for the Chinese, celebrated each year..."[3], "distributing some 2,000 zongzi (粽子) to the needy on the eve of the Dragon Boat Festival."[4], and " With the Dragon Boat Festival just around the corner, the CPC is working actively to secure promises from these retailers that they will not hoard"[5] are all references to the holiday from a wide range of major English-language sources in "Greater China" with no mention of boat races. You will notice that few or none of these articles even mention "Duanwu" as an alternate name. Likewise, few of the many stories on the major news event of the Dragon Boat Festival charter flights between Taiwan and China mention "Duanwu". — AjaxSmack 14:53, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the principle of your post. Nevertheless, I don't think "Dragon Boat Festival" is an established name as much as the Anglicised names of the other examples you raised. When you say "Boxer Rebellion", anyone familiar with the general subject area will know which rebellion you are talking about. But when you say "Dragon Boat Festival", it is not so clear. Is it Duanwu? Is it the Lantern Festival? Is it any of the other various local "Dragon Boat Festivals" which Google is throwing up?

Given two terms, both of which are used in English-language writing, one of which is confusing and imprecise, while the other is neither -- I believe the latter should prevail. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 11:00, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

No offence, pal. But what you think of as more established is not necessarily so, and may I added that the move to its current title is unilateral without any consensus.Mr.Clown (talk) 20:30, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

• Support; we are edited for general readers, not for Sinologists. See also WP:Official names for why we don't use them; it applies doubly on China, where the question "who is official?" is actively debated. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:16, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
• Opppose "Dragon Boat Festival" can be somewhat misleading since the festival offers more activities than a simple dragon boat competition. How about seeing some people do not row any dragon boats but prepare zongzi on "Dragon Boat Festival"? Chrisliu (talk) 10:19, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

It is not Wikipedia's place to determine if a name is misleading or not, may I humbly suggest you to read the page of 'what Wikipedia is not'Mr.Clown (talk) 20:37, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose. After a long period of vacillation, I've decided to oppose using "Dragon Boat Festival" for 端午节. The reason is that "Dragon Boat Festival" really only describes the festival as celebrated in Southern China. (I was speaking to some Inner Mongolians yesterday, and for them the Duanwu Festival is the date from which it's warm enough to start swimming. And they eat eggs, not zongzi.) The form of the Duanwu Festival relating to dragon boats is possibly the most "authentic" or "familiar" form, but it's not the only one. Although "Dragon Boat Festival" is the most widespread term in English, I would submit that it's actually only used in a narrow sense for the South Chinese celebration. It's not actually synonymous with Duanwu Festival. I think that we can settle on the Mandarin name, but the lead section should put the Cantonese name on a par with Mandarin. Bathrobe (talk) 00:51, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

"Christ-mas" isn't necessarily celebrated with a christianity point of view, yet it is globally called christmas. I understand dragon boats aren't possible in most parts of mainland (due to no sea or lake). But to keep the name consistent with the tradition, it should be called Dragon-boat festival like before. It is also unfair to call it by mandarin pinyin "Duanwu" when it has long remained a more cantonese based holiday. Benjwong (talk) 05:23, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I disagree that it is "Cantonese-based". It's celebrated in more than just Cantonese areas. For instance, Hainan, Taiwan,... and I suspect quite a few more. Bathrobe (talk) 05:38, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

That depends on the definition of "celebrate". Most people eat zongzi. But I would hesitate to call that a celebration. Hainan is quite a cantonese area btw. Even the article admits its guangdong roots. I am not going to debate this one further. As long as there is a redirect, I can deal with it. Benjwong (talk) 02:41, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Even the article admits its guangdong roots.

Serious? Where? The article says that, according to the orthodox view, the festival originates from the Chu kingdom -- from the Miluo River, to be precise -- which flows nowhere near Guangdong. The festival is celebrated throughout China and neighbouring countries such as Korea and Vietnam. Dragon boating is an activity common throughout southern China - and to be absolutely clear, this is "southern China" in the sense of from Jiangnan southward, not as in South China Morning Post. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 05:34, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Possibly he means that Hainan has Cantonese roots, but even that doesn't stand up to scrutiny. The local language is Hainanese (related to Hokkienese), Cantonese is not as widely understood in Hainan as might be suspected, the people are quite different from the Cantonese in their outlook, and yum cha is not widely found and not so good, actually. Saying that Hainan is "quite a cantonese area" sounds good but seems to me like a kind of Cantonese "cultural aggrandisement" that misses the more interesting and complex reality not only of Hainan but also of Guangdong province and south China in general. Of course, it is quite possible that Hainan's dragon boat racing came across from Guangdong, but a bit more research is needed before simply putting the custom down to Hainan's being "quite a cantonese area". Bathrobe (talk) 06:03, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Maybe I should have said "Guangdong cultural roots" or even "south china cultural roots" for clarity. Also I cannot speak for Korea, vietnam or other countries. If the celebration is only eating zongzi, then I guess you can list many more countries on wiki. What I was getting at is that the authenticity of the holiday has faded away in many parts of China (since 1950s). In fact if you can get access to guangdong channels, even people from south china areas admit their current ways of celebrating is a renewal/revival effort at best. Benjwong (talk) 04:33, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Any additional comments:

I don't personally advocate relying on these but, since the nomination has no supporting evidence, I'll give some Google News results conducted now since the festival is this week: Duanwu: 13 hits[6]; "Dragon Boat Festival": 118 hits[7] — AjaxSmack 00:34, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

The improperly spelt variant "Duan Wu Festival" draws 4,300 hits; "Duanwu Festival" draws 5,300 hits; "Duan Wu" has 17,600 hits, and "Duanwu" has 38,500. Interestingly, one result call it "Dumpling Festival". Has anyone heard of such a thing?

"Dragon Boat Festival" has 584,000, but notice that many of them are talking about specific dragon boat competitions in various places, rather than the cultural festival or statutory holiday itself (e.g. the "Rio Tinto Alcan Dragon Boat Festival", which is not really what this article is about). The same goes for the news results: the second hit, for the "Whistler Dragon Boat Festival", isn't even held on Duanwu day. "Dragon Boat Festival" in this latter sense is better dealt with under dragon boat. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 03:50, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

The following stance has been reverted. See above. I'm not going to vote on this one because I'm really quite torn on the issue.

As an English-speaker, I prefer the natural-sounding and familiar "Dragon Boat Festival". But "Dragon Boat Festival" sounds weird when you apply it to places like Beijing, where they celebrate the festival but have no dragon boats!

In support of Duanwu, the Chinese government has now made it an official holiday. But on the other hand, I don't quite see why the Mainland transliteration should be made de rigueur and the Cantonese pronunciation relegated to an "also-mentioned".

So I'm going to abstain.

Bathrobe (talk) 02:01, 7 June 2008 (UTC)