User talk:Dsmdgold/Tulsa architecture

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[edit] The point of this

The Tulsa, Oklahoma FA discussion, started me thinking about Tulsa's architectural history, and I decided that an article devoted to that topic would be fun. This page is my working page for developing the article. Here are some of the ideas that I think should be incorporated into the article.

• Art Deco is often taken as the starting and end point of Tulsa architecture. Although the article should recognize the importance of Deco, I would like to incorporate the whole of Tulsa's architectural history.
• To the end, I would like to avoid the trap of relying solely on still standing examples. For example, Tulsa went through a phase when in looked like the stereotypical "Western" town with a lot of fake front frame stores. Although none of this remains it should still be discussed.
• I also would like to avoid the trap of ignoring the recent past. This is harder than you might think, because it easy to ignore architecture that is 20-30 years old. It looks a little dated, and a little rundown, and not worth noting much at all. I have personal experience with this. My first job was the City Veterinary Hospital at 36th and Peoria. This was about 1978 and the building was a little more than 30 years old. I thought it was a tired old building. I now recognize as the little Streamline gem that it is. Anyway, I digress, the recent past is important too.
• Domestic architecture should not be overlooked. This may take some digging. The big mansions, like Philbrook, Westhope, the Brady Mansion, etc are easy. What is less easy is the trends in more modest architecture. For example I recently discovered that Lortondale neighborhood is full modest "Modern" houses from mid-century. Of course there are also neighborhoods full of Ranches or Craftsman houses; all of the trends of twentieth century domestic architecture are represented and should be discussed
• Churches will take some extra care. This is in part because the NRHP criteria make it more difficult for a church to make the list. Not every church's architecture is worth noting, but many are.
• Although notice must be made of "oddities" like the Blue Dome or the Rose Bowl, the article shouldn't be overwhelmed by them.
• Retail architecture has me concerned, in part because it so disposable, but also because it is so ordinary. It also dates quickly so that retail architecture from the recent past seems trite and uninteresting. However when I see the a surviving "Cotswald" Phillips gas station from the 30's, my reaction is "gee that's cool". Will people have that reaction to strip malls in 50 years? Is it possible to be objective about the recent architecture?
• Driving by the Borden Dairy today on Denver had me thinking about industrial architecture - can it be incorporated.

As a start I have started listing by decade the major buildings. I think I have it to the point where all of the skyscrapers and high-rises are listed, and many of the larger low-rise buildings. There are major gaps, especially in Schools Hospitals, and Malls. I would like to get all of the large or architecturally important buildings onto this list, and from this we could start to start to build a text around the buildings. Obviously, not every building can be included in the final article, but by making this large list, we can avoid excluding important buildings. (This list might also be incorporated into Buildings of Tulsa, Oklahoma). Please feel free to include any significant buildings I have missed.

I am undecided on the structure of the article as yet. I have two thoughts. We could just work are way through the periods the progression would be Early Frame Buildings -> Early Masonry Buildings -> "Prairie Commercial" Style Buildings -> Oil Boom -> Art Deco -> Mid-century Modern Buildings -> Late twentieth century buildings -> Current architecture. Although this progression focuses on business architecture, the corresponding domestic, civic and ecclesiastical architecture could be folded into this scheme. The other way we could go is to separate each "use" and follow it from the beginning to the present. In other words we could have sections on Office Buildings, Domestic Architecture, Civic Architecture, Retail Architecture, Churches and perhaps Industrial Architecture.

Please feel free to post any comments on my ideas here, or make any useful additions you can think of to the list. Dsmdgold 04:36, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

PS, this list is currently unsourced, but I will be adding my sources in the near future. I will also be posting a bibliography for Tulsa architecture as I develop it. Dsmdgold 04:40, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

This is a great idea for an article. I have one question, are we going to make Buildings of Tulsa, Oklahoma distinct from this history of tulsa architecture article? It sounds like this article will be more comprehensive and historical as the "buildings" article is simply current buildings. Correct? I don't know much about architecture past the basic common knowledge stuff, but I can definently help with writing the article once the list is complete if you need any help. I assume it should be written as a historical account, judging by the name of the article.

On another note, it seems like you desire to make a very comprehensive article here, with a lot of information, which is great. We can have it as the collaboration of the month on Taskforce Tulsa once you give the ok on that. With the structure of the article, I reccomend the first style you suggested... I think. My reccomendation is to seperate it by "era", which is what I think you are saying with that, am I correct? For instance, streamline and zig-zag art deco were popular at different periods. Its a tough call because it is very easy to get confusing with the setup of the article since there is so much information. Another idea that would help if the article ended up being a monster may be to have this a fairly short summary with sections that link to main articles such as "Early Art Deco in Tulsa" or "Churches", which can be larger and comprehensively detailed. (There is, however, a List of churches in Tulsa, Oklahoma, just for your information). Okiefromokla•talk 18:02, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm glad you like the idea. Yes I think that Buildings of Tulsa, Oklahoma should be a separate article, perhaps moved to List of buildings of Tulsa, Oklahoma, and should be limited to still standing buildings. I don't know a lot about twentieth century architecture, my academic career was focused on the Middle Ages, but I have become interested in this subject and I am learning quickly.

I am aiming at a comprehensive article. Once it gets started as a "real" article, I would be quite happy for it to be a collaboration. I assume that there is a Wikiproject for architecture, maybe when we get started we could get some of them involved. I tend to agree that dividing by periods would be the best bet. One thought though, although there was a lot of Deco built in the 30's and 40's, there was a lot of non-Deco built then too. Perhaps we shouldn't have a "Deco Period" section. It would also be nice to have a series of sub-articles, but we should wait until this one does become a monster. I tend not to be adverse to long articles. I am aware of the List of churches in Tulsa, Oklahoma, I've even contributed. (corrected a formatting error). However, I tend to think of that as list of congregations, not buildings. A case in point is Asbury United Methodist, which is currently in the giant building on Mingo. Until a few years ago, they were at a much smaller building near 51st and Sheridan. The two buildings would need different treatments in an architecture list, but the congregation would not.

My end goal is to get this to FA status. However, when it gets nominated, it would be nice if it was in such a state that the only criticisms were over style and formatting, not content. Dsmdgold 19:51, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I will definently help out. We need to get some good articles belonging to taskforce tulsa. Okiefromokla•talk 03:37, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

The Alvin Hotel, 7th and Main was demolished around 1986 The Lerner Shop, 419 S. Main St. has also been torn down in the last year or so. You also mention the Gillette-Tyrell Building, 423 S. Boulder Ave.I think this one is more commonly known as the Pythian Building ""Dan Wright""

Thanks. Dsmdgold 15:05, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tulsa Architecture

While I recognize you don't want to "Fall into the trap" of ignoring recent additions, do you really feel the Warren and Kelly building are deserving of distinction? They are simple glass medical building without unique features.

Perhaps. But they are also examples of the aesthetic of the age in which they were built (I'm asuming early to mid 70's). In the end, they probably will not be highly discussed in the article I am planning, but fr now I am including for completness sake. Dsmdgold 02:35, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

What about Edison High School? You mention Old Central but leave off the Modern attempt to combine two school into a single ediface for overlapping public use areas while keeping the grade distinctions. Are you familier with Edison?

I am quite familiar with Edison, being a graduate of both the the Junior High and the Senior High. You are correct that it is a significant structure, although I think that the recent addition mars the facade. Eventually, I hope to bring in most of the school buildings in Tulsa, including many that no longe exist, as they are major examples of civic architecture. I also find the evolution of school design very interesting. Dsmdgold 03:16, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Are you also going to delve into individual areas? I have often thought the architecture east of Pittsburg along 38th street was representative of the 50's style of durable but inexpensive neighborhood building that allowed home ownership for many people and expansive growth of the city. Also many old businesses: Casa Bonita - creating atmosphere in the middle of a strip center, The old Annex Mall - never full but great warmth, Bells Amusment Park - gone forever, Next thing you know the Vet at 36th and Peoria will be torn down.

I will, eventually fully discuss domestic architecture, although very few individual houses are that remarkable, the architecture of individual neighborhoods is highly relevent. The neighborhood that is most interesting to me right now is Lortondale (the area east of Yale around 26th Street), which contains the largest concentration of "Modern" house in Tulsa. (This neighborhood will be the next one to make the NRHP as a neighborhood.) Casa Bonita will be covered, The Annex probally not, and most of Bells was not really architecture.

You, however, have me a bit flummoxed, I am beginning to suspect that you are one of my siblings or old friends messing with me. I grew up in a house on 38th street which backed up to Whiteside. I had jobs at Casa Bonita, Bells, and in the Annex as well as at the Vet at 36th and Peoria. The only problem is that I can't think of anyone who would know where I grew up that would have your particular editing history. (Assuming that all of the recent edits from your IP address are from the same person.) Dsmdgold 03:07, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

3 hints: Respect your elders. 1132 Wilham South. Best Man with a beard.

I thought it might be you. I just didn't see you generating this edit history. The FOrt Worth baseball teams I could see, but the list of Female Rapers, not so much. The other candidate was my younger brother. He's a bigger smartass than you, but this was a bit subtle for him. What's up? Any ideas for an article on the Architectural history of Tulsa? Dsmdgold 04:20, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I resent the smartass claim...I can't take credit for the entire line...more than one of us out there...I would drop the Warren and Kelly buildings as they have always depressed me. If you must go for a glass tower (an abomination on structures everywhere and the main reason our society will leave nothing to future generations) I would go with the RSC tower across the street. Taller and more imposing. (Full discloser, my folks worked for original owner and I am the only member of my family to have never been employed at the site). That said, you have done some wonderful work on this article. Call me, I don't have your number. Ellis Boyd "Red" Redding 'Shawshank Redemption": [narrating] I have to remind myself that some birds aren't meant to be caged. Their feathers are just too bright. And when they fly away, the part of you that knows it was a sin to lock them up DOES rejoice. Still, the place you live in is that much more drab and empty that they're gone. I guess I just miss my friend.

I don't much like the Warren and Kelly buildings either, but I think it says something about the erea that that is what they chose to put up. (It might just say that the Warrens are cheap bastards with no taste. At least they aren't pink.) I have spent the beter part of the last hour looking for you phone number to no avail. You can email through the link on my main user page, please send me your #. I would love to have a long talk. There's an election coming. Dsmdgold 02:19, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I think it was a cynical ploy to drum up business for any doctor renting space in the complex. As people drive by they will feel so sick to there stomachs and get such headaches that a doctor's appointment would immediatly be necessary. While I rail on the Warren and Kelly builidings, I actually like the pink palace on the hill. Since it is a single anomoly and not part of a pattern it's uniqueness stands out. If it had more structue around it, it might fail.

Ah.... I love reunions lol I've been watching this unfold because I have the page watched. It almost brought tears to my eye... :P Okiefromokla•talk 15:33, 15 August 2007 (UTC)