Talk:Drum kit

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Contents 1 Electric Drumkits 2 Article Overhaul 3 Volume of drums 4 Names of various drums/cymbals 4.1 'Sock' cymbal to describe hi-hat 5 Questions answered... 6 First drum kit 7 The drum kit components image 8 Links 9 Notation 10 Tuning 11 Zendrum Link 12 Base Drum Kit 13 Merging breakables? 14 Materials 15 Nonsense section 16 Zildjian Cymbals 17 Discussion: usefull? 18 Notation again 19 Opinion 20 Breakables 21 Drum Portal? 22 Drums r typ of kool 23 Place of invention?

[edit] Electric Drumkits

This article should atleast mention the evolution of drums into electric drum kits and also have a "See Also" link to the electric drum kit article. --78.86.117.164 15:39, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

If such an article already exists, then it is not necessary to discuss these things in this article. If you want a link, put one in. TheScotch 09:40, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article Overhaul

This article seems really inadequate, considering the importance of drum sets in popular music. For example, there is no discussion of drum set history, how the drum set varies from genre to genre, or even what purpose is gay the drum set plays in music. I think this article needs a complete overhaul. What do you think? I’d be willing to take on the project.--Cspencer 02:08, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

I definately agree. I have some knowledge but I don't think it would be enough to do this. If you have the knowledge, go for it! - Mark 17:40, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

The following link has some excellent info on the history of the drum kit: [1] --Lowman 02:16, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Volume of drums

Can someone explain why in Jazz music the drums are often recorded at a very low volume, much lower then what one would hear even in a simple acoustic setting where all the instruments were the same radius away from you.

Because people are not interested in hearing the drums. They want to hear the soloist! Also in a live situation, its very difficult to control the volume of the drums/drummer (ie drummers usually play too loud). In the recording studio, drummers are hidden away behind baffles to reduce the sound and the recording engineer can then put just the right amount of volume onto the record--Light current 19:50, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

That is by all means the hugest blasphemy I have ever heard! In so many cases (especially the be-bop era of jazz) the drummer is the lead for the group, doing most of the arranging and coordinating for the remainder of the instruments. The reason drums come in so low in jazz sometimes is most recordings are done live and the musicians are spaced according to power behind instrument and how they fit in the mix of the band. To say most don't want to hear the drums is just plain ignorant. That means Buddy Rich, Gene Krupa, Baby Dodds, Chic Webb, Jack DeJonnette, Dennis Chambers, Lenny White, Billy Cobham, and many more drummers really had no pull and were just filler in the music they played to. I don't know where you got your intel from, but I think you need to slap the person who fed you that misleading commentary. The rhythm behind jazz in the most would not be possible without percussion. Monkeyfist 20:31, 17 December 2005 (UTC) Monkeyfist

[edit] Names of various drums/cymbals

Why is the snare in a snare drum called a "snare"?

Because it has wire 'snares' underneath that rattle against the lower head to give that rattly sound. THe snares can be moved away from the head to deactivate the feature - then you get a plain side drum sound--Light current 19:53, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

What is the source of the name "hi-hat"?

I'm not a drummer, but I think that snares are so-called because it's a slightly onomatopeiac term. I think. The hi-hat looks a bit like two of those chinese field worker's hats put together as well, and it's high because it's off the ground? I don't really know, I'm just guessing... Dragonfly888 20:43, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm wrong, I asked my drummer and he said that snare drums actually have little things called snares in them that makes the sound. He didn't know why hi-hats were called hi-hats. Dragonfly888 17:41, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

They are called this because of the way they look when opened. Originaly high hats were on the ground. The top cymbal was taped or attached the the drummers foot and he "clicked" them together by lowering his foot up and down. -Mikeh0303

[edit] 'Sock' cymbal to describe hi-hat

Anyone know where the term 'sock' cymbal (another name for hi-hat) comes from, and is it anything to do with the low boy cymbal mentioned no the page. ie was it placed and operated near the feet(socks) of the player?--Light current 19:49, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Just found this on hi-hat page

The hi-hat stand was developed from the low-sock by Gene Krupa in collaboration with Armand Zildjian. The low-sock was a pedal which simply clashed together a pair of similar crash cymbals. They were mounted next to the pedal, so playing them with a stick was not possible.

--Light current 19:59, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Questions answered...

Snare is purely short for snare drum, because most drummers are lazy and cant be bothered to say two words when one is only needed (hence hihat is often just called a hat). Snare drums are called so, as dragonfly pointed out, because of the metal snares attached to the rim on the resonant head to give the snare it's buzz. This is the same in orchestral snare drum playing except that often a combination of metal and plastic snares are used to give the drum more bite, and make it sound less like a drum kit snare.

The high hat started out life in dixieland drumming and was called a "snowshoe cymbal beater", and was operated in a similar way as it is today. At the same time another drum company was developing a similar product called a "low boy", obviously much lower than a modern hihat. This then morphed into the hihat as we know it today, with the introduction of many different branded products from companies (such as Gretsch and Ludwig). The specifics of this are unclear to to me - if anyone can find out more information and add it i would be pleased.

Other notes: the rim shot is different from what is posted on the article - a rim shot is when the stick hits the head and the rim at the same time. What is actually posted is a RIM CLICK, which is where the hand mutes the drum and knocks the stick on the rim using that hand. This is a common misunderstanding amung drummers, and could someone change this please. Lawrence Dunn - LozDunn@gmail.com

Early cymbals used on "snowshoe" devices had large deep bells (or cups) and very short bows (flat-tapered part of cymbal); they resembled derby hats. Elevate them and you have high hats. I learned this over 20 years ago from a gentleman who was drumming during the actual evolution of the high hat. Also probably in some half-remembered article in Modern Drummer Magazine. Mark Ryan - ludwigdrummertoo@netzero.net

[edit] First drum kit

I would like to know the date -or an approximation- and place of the first evidence we have of the existence of a drum kit recognisable as the instrument we know today.Thank you.

yea its really hard to tell. i dont think there was any around before the 20th century but im not sure. my best guess would probably be early 1910s but it wouldn't be until the 20s or 30s that they started becoming heavily used due to jazz becoming popular.

according to "The Drum Book" efforts were made as early as the 1890's but william F. ludwig became the perfector of the drum kit, in 1909, because of his bass drum peadal. read the book its really good unfortunetly i dont remember the author.

[edit] The drum kit components image

The drum kit components image is pretty big, and it's kind of distracting from the text in the other drum component articles too ('cause its squeezing things, especially with the second images between). Is it possible to maybe cut the 6 major componenets in half or so, so that we have 1-3 (bass to snare) listed above 4-6 (toms and overheads)? I'd do it myself if I knew how to. Shadowolf 03:29, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

is there any way of changing the image title? while itis technically a drum kit, it needs to be specified as a 5-piece drum kit. Kiran90 13:37, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Links

This article is getting bogged down with external links. When I have time I will review them. QQ 15:23, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree. There are a lot of pointless links. However, there are a lot of useful sites left off the list. Is there precedent for linking to pages of links compiled on other websites? For example, here is the most comprehensive list of drum manufacturers I know of.--Cspencer 17:26, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Notation

User:Timemachine has been adding sections on drum set notation to such articles as Music notation. I'm a bit skeptical, but maybe the editors of this article can help. Is there in fact any standardized notation for drum sets? I realize that most drummers don't use music at all, but for symphonic bands and the like they have it. I was always under the impression that it was pretty much ad hoc. Please advise. Also, is there such a thing as an anti-accent? —Wahoofive (talk) 23:32, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

As far as I know there isn't a specifically defined system for drumset notation. However, there are certain conventions. I reviewed over the notation list and everything seems right. You'll come across scores with different notation, but the majority will be as the article describes. As far as anti-accents... they exist but I've never heard them called by that name. They're usually called ghostnotes. The idea is that the note is played so softly it's barely audible. I think there needs to be some sort diagram showing common notation. Would this be appropriate? I could put one together.--Cspencer 01:44, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

I've thrown together a graphical representation of the information that was in textual form, as I understand it, in the article using Sibelius. Most of the text has been left in the alt text of the images. There are a few remaining issues, however. First, I botched together the "cross-in-circle" notation using Fireworks, since my version of Sibelius (2) doesn't have that functionality. I believe this is possible in version 4, if not 3. I've uploaded the source to http://www.big-blue-fish.com/misc/drumkit_notation.sib if anyone would like to make this adjustment. I'm also unsure if I've represented brush sweep notation with the right noteheads, and was completely unable to find functionality for any of the anti-accents. When searching the rest of the internet, I also noted that almost every documentation was different, and have made this a little clearer in the article. I was wondering, though, if there is some particularly authoritative source that has a particularly popular scheme. I don't know if drummers really have manuscript books, but if they do, do these published works use similar/identical conventions? BigBlueFish 15:14, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Notation for drummers varies from composer to composer. And one of the main jobs of a drummer is decipher what the composer is telling you to play. Yes there are drummers who don’t use music at all, they are mostly from rock groups but most drummers who have any training at all know how to read drum charts. To correct Wahoofive’s impression that most drummers “ad hoc”: there are times when drummers have to play exactly what is written. This is mostly for rock operas suck as Footloose, Tommy, or Rent where every beat is written out, or movie scores where a drummer is required. Big band or stage band drummers also have music , but are often more liberal for sticking to what it says. Some composers realize this and write a chart as slashes ( which means improvise to a drummer) with the shots written on top of the bar (shots being notes that other interments play that the composer want s to emphasize so tells the drummer to play with them). Jazz drummers also make use of the fake book which has no rhythm parts in the cart, just the chord changes and the melody, crating another instance where a drummer can improvise. Rock star drumming is the hardest to explain because the are such a variant of rock drummers; some can read and some can’t. but most rock drummers already know what there going to play when they perform; they have all there parts memorized. Drumming chart’s notation is pretty much standard these days, but there are still times when composers write drumming music in a new way because its faster, easier, or they just don’t know better.Thescot 21:30, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tuning

Is there a certain tuning for a standard kit or at least something that they should be set around? Or is it all just personal preference? --XdiabolicalX 16:38, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Depending on the style of music, the tuning tends to be different. For example, for funk, you want a lower and deeper snare and toms, whereas for punk, you want a very crisp, high snare with higher toms. Also, the interval between adjacent toms is often a minor 3rd. -Evan Seeds (talk) 01:49, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Note that for funk a very high tuned snare is also adequate. For the toms, the most versatile tuning tends to be a perfect 5th between them.

[edit] Zendrum Link

It seems a bit weird to have the link to the Zendrum there in "See Also". I think that either that should be removed, or we should add more links. --Julian Bennett Holmes 03:39, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Base Drum Kit

I wanted to reword the Modern kits and components section. I just wanted to add what is considered a "base set." what do ya'll think? Jollygamer321 04:28, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

What I consider a "base set" (or the minimum a set must have) is: a 4-piece set (bass drum, snare drum, high tom, low tom/floor tom); a hi hat and a ride cymbal. However a bass drum, snare drum and hi hat/ride cymbal can be sufficient

[edit] Merging breakables?

I'd be in favor of merging the other article into this one. Comments? -- Cielomobile ^minor7♭5 04:51, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

yea theres really no need for it to have its own seperate article.

[edit] Materials

Shocking article :P

I think you should add what type of material drum skins are made of, and what they have been made of in the past.

[edit] Nonsense section

"Early drum kits were known as (from contraption). Though this term is now uncommon..." I don't understand what this means, surely an incomplete sentence? --born against 14:08, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Zildjian Cymbals

The final paragraph in the history section should be taken out or edited. It is not neccessary to include such an extensive history of the Zildjian cymbal company and a huge portion of the paragraph is devoted to exactly that. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.239.238.229 (talk) 21:01, 4 May 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Discussion: usefull?

it appearntly shows that you can probably get the information you need out of an article's discussion even if the article is not complete. I mean, hey, i got mounds of informatoin from this discussion that wasnt in the article posted. maybe some of you guys should re write a bunch of the stuff? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.115.67.88 (talk) 20:33, August 20, 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Notation again

The notation section does not belong here, the exact same images and article content are contained in Percussion notation, which in turn was previously a part of musical notation. It doesn't need to be reproduced here. Maybe a short mention of it, with a link to the main article is all that is needed.

The main thrust of this article should be the history and development of the modern drum kit, it's almost bizarre to have the main bulk of the article on musical notation when notation is comprehensively covered in another article and wider general articles on notation.

If there are no reasonable and viable objections discussed here, I will soon remove the relevant section and replace it with a shorter mention of notation and a link; and start working on including history and development sections. Liverpool Scouse 16:48, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Opinion

I removed "It is important however to remember that each kit is a matter of personal taste and opinion for the drummer concerned and that these are general trends." from the H&D section. I don't disagree, but this is more like advice or a "how to", which doesn't belong. If someone wants to add something about individual drummers not following the overall trends, fine, I guess. But I don't think the article should be telling people what's "important to remember". Actionsquid 18:04, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

hi —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.26.122.63 (talk) 18:40, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Breakables

I condensed breakables down to a paragraph (relisting each type of drum in a kit isn't necessary) and placed it near the top of the article. Cites are still needed. -Bikinibomb 05:42, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Drum Portal?

I saw thier was a guitar portal, is their a drum portal. Prince Of All Saiyans 16:06, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Drums r typ of kool

ya —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.86.217.25 (talk) 15:16, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Place of invention?

Are drum sets an American creation or not? drums are cool 63.231.226.39 (talk) 08:46, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Most notably when Ludwig made the bass drum pedal system workable, Chicago 1909. Up until then drums were played in a marching fashion. -Bikinibomb (talk) 20:10, 3 January 2008 (UTC) drums are cool