Talk:Drum and bass

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Good article Drum and bass has been listed as one of the Arts good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a reassessment.
September 23, 2006 Good article nominee Listed

[edit] Archives

Discussions here have repeatedly involved the same arguments and views.

Please review the recent comments below, or in the archives. New views and ideas on the subject are welcome; however, if your beliefs reflect already existing contributions, please consider withholding them.

There are two archive pages. Before going into a discussion about whether jungle is drum & bass, please read Archive 1, just about every argument for and against was exhausted there.

The second archive mostly chronicles the changes in this article in 2006.

160kbs of archive in total.

Big up! --Dustek 10:37, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Archive 1 - plenty of discussions on jungle vs dnb, merge & seperation discussions, discussions with authors.
Archive 2 - discussions mostly connected with editing in 2006, bringing the article up to good status.

Contents


[edit] Tempo

Anyone who claims that a faster track has less complex breaks than a slower one is obviously not a Venetian Snares fan... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.111.33.109 (talk) 16:53, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Venetian Snares is closer to breakcore than drum and bass. Blendage 11:25, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Indeed! In fact he is completely breakcore. But it still proves that faster beats are not always less complex. In fact I strongly disagree with this statement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.111.33.109 (talk) 13:41, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

I see you have trouble understanding the complex statement that is "A faster drum and bass track will therefore generally have a less complex drum pattern than a slower one."

In general means, in general.

Venetian Snares produces fast music with complex drumbeats.

Most drum & bass producers use less and less complex beats, the faster the tempo. Twostep vs Amen.

--Dustek 14:46, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Issues

Is it really fair to say that jungle and drum'n'bass are the same thing? I always think of jungle as a faster, more Amen-break focussed, dirtier drum'n'bass, which is usually more MC-oriented.

Also, can it REALLY be considered an underground genre any more?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.111.33.109 (talk) 13:58, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

  • Absolutely, especially in the States, most people have never even heard of Drum & Bass and have no idea what it is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.79.95.148 (talk) 15:58, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
The wiki-dominant US faction have no idea that the two are different and that one actually came before the other. But it is a useless debate to start again (we tried a couple of years ago) as it will ultimately get put to a vote and there are more US wiki-users than UK. End-result = Bad Information... but what can you do.202.138.58.48 (talk) 09:57, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
  • I believe some clarification is still in order. Yes the terms "Drum and Bass" and "Jungle" are somewhat interchangeable, however there is still plenty of dispute on whether they are the same thing. Jungle generally refers to the "choppage" style music of the early 90s before the term Drum and Bass was coined or even heard of. There are plenty of people who share Naphta's point of view given in his interview [1] - "As for the ‘drum n bass’ sound, obviously Ireland has spawned a bunch of skilled producers in that field, some of whom are doing very well for themselves these days – from Calibre and Beta 2 to Zero Tolerance and Polska… but while I appreciate and respect what they all do in their own areas, I wouldn’t really think of any of it as ‘Jungle’..."
what I'm getting at is, there needs to be a section in there saying there is dispute between followers of the genre(s) - some (usually the ones who prefer the 'Jungle' sound over the 'Drum and Bass' one) prefer to differentiate the two, while others say they are the same. Both sides of the argument are just as valid really, and both deserve to be known. (James.faction (talk) 01:09, 9 January 2008 (UTC))
what's wrong with this?. - Zeibura (Talk) 14:55, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
There is a section as Zeibura pointed out... --Dustek (talk) 15:43, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
I grew up in East London listening to Jungle so let me just explain it to you... Jungle came first and was an evolution of the faster hardcore being played at the time. As music evolved the music became drum and bass and that's what we call it today. They are not separate genres but neither are they the same. I suppose the simplest explanation is that jungle is a subre-genre of what we call drum and bass today. --87.75.28.66 (talk) 14:44, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
There's a separate article on oldschool jungle, which is the evolution of hardcore you refer to. Really, the bit in the opening paragraph which says drum and bass is aka jungle is not prescribing the viewpoint that they are and always have been exactly the same thing, all it's saying is that the two terms are commonly used to refer to the same genre, drum and bass, which is true. Later on in the article, there's a section which goes into detail about the names and different opinions behind what they mean/have meant in the past. Remember that music genres' names can and do change - house music was around for a few years before it started being called house music, so it's hardly implausible that drum and bass was around before it started being called such as well. - Zeibura (Talk) 16:43, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Kool FM

I've added much needed info on the London pirate Jungle DnB radio station Kool FM. By reading the main article I'm sure you'll agree with me that comment is due. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Markieman234 (talk • contribs) 04:27, 3 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Links

The DNB Arena and Dogs on Acid links lead to reference materials. Dogs On Acid is in itself a phenomen worthy of encyclopedic entry. Rolldabeats is a database. --Dustek 11:20, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I would like to submit http://www.MayhemDrumnBass.co.uk as a good all round Drum n Bass website.

[edit] Consistency

If the article uses "drum and bass" throughout, don't start using "Drum and Bass" (except where appropriate, as a subgenre name or title). --Dustek 11:20, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Abbreviations

All of the common abbreviations of drum and bass, such as DnB, dnb, drum & bass, drum n bass are of encyclopedic interest since they are names widely used for the subject. They also help to lead readers to the article, for instance if they type dnb into the wiki search. --Dustek 11:20, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bringing this article forward

Correcting grammar and spelling is worthwhile but to really increase the quality of this article, you (that means you!) has to put some proper work in.

The article needs more pictures and more media. That means uploading material, labelling it and putting it into the text.

The article also needs to be read by somebody fresh to its content to clean up inconsistencies (such as usage of names) and POV.

I put a lot work into this article last year and I would appreciate somebody doing the same this year. --Dustek 11:32, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Archiving this talk page

Any objections to my archiving the first half of this talk page? --Dustek 11:37, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

In the lack of dissent or discussion, I'm archiving. --Dustek 10:37, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Internet radio

I'm pretty sure that DnB is broadcast by a number of internet radio stations, but none are mentioned in the "Radio" section of the article. I do know Digitally Imported has a Drum and Bass channel that runs 24/7, and I'm sure there are others. These should perhaps be researched and added in. BloodDoll 14:45, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Look in the history. We used to have a section for internet radio. We dutifily listed the ones which (to us) were obvious suspects, bassdrive, whatever. Then everyone saw there was a section they could link up their little stream and added a whole shedload. How to judge the difference between a station "notable" enough to meet wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and spam? It's impossible to do so fairly, so we ended up removing it.
Wikipedia policy does say stuff about how it's not supposed to be a list of links, so I think what would best fit policy would be finding (or making, if you're so actively inclined) a "neutral" list of dnb internet radio stations, and linking to that. Possible locations it may already exist: dmoz or similar project? doa/dnba thread? blog post?
Stevekeiretsu 23:12, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

We seem to spend half our time removing links. I'd remove the external links section completely but the current links are useful and of encyclopedic interest. --Dustek 12:00, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Major tracks by year

I've put together this rough list (put together with CTRL+C) of significant tracks using the BBC timeline plus equal input from junglists [2]. I don't have the energy to reformat the list and put in full details but if somebody has the energy to do it...

L10 To Get In (and remix L20 To Get In) - Shut Up and Dance '89 Spliffhead / Hooligan 69 - Shut Up and Dance '90 Mr Kirk's Nightmare - 4 Hero '90 The Psycho EP - DJ SS '90 Some Justice - Urban Shakedown & Mickey Finn '91 We Are I.E. - Lennie de Ice '91 28 Gun Bad Boy - A Guy Called Gerald '91

Major tunes 1992 Terminator - Rufige Kru (Goldie & Rob Playford) Demon's Theme - LTJ Bukem Stepper's Delight - Smith & Mighty Hold It Down EP - 2 Bad Mice A New Breed of Ravers - DJ SS Here Comes the Drumz - Nasty Habits (Doc Scott) 28 Gun Bad Boy LP - A Guy Called Gerald Major Tunes 1993 Valley of the Shadows - Origin Unknown Music - LTJ Bukem Lion of Judah - Conquering Lion Music Box - DJ Die & Roni Size Bludclot Artattack - Ed Rush & Nico Breakbeat Pressure EPs - DJ SS Gangsta Kid - Shy FX (feat. Gunsmoke) Renegade Snares - Omni Trio


Major tunes 1994 Terrorist - Renegade (Ray Keith) Original Nuttah - Shy FX with UK Apache Incredible - M Beat with General Levy Burial - Levicticus (aka Jumping Jack Frost) Code Red - Conquering Lion Timestretch - Roni Size It's A Jazz Thing - DJ Die & Roni Size Rrrroll da Beats - DJ Hype Deep Love - Dillinja Inner City Life - Goldie Parallel Universe - 4 Hero

Major Tunes 1995 Pulp Fiction - Alex Reece Warning - Firefox P-Funk Era - Pascal Circles - Adam F Babylon - Splash The Western - PFM The Mutant - DJ Trace Super Sharp Shooter - DJ Zinc Set Speed - DJ Krust The Angels Fell EP - Dillinja Champion Sound - Black Star ft Top Cat Major tunes 1996 Peace, Love & Unity - DJ Hype Reach Out - DJ Zinc Dictation - Gang Related & Mask (Krust & Roni Size) Skylab - Ed Rush Killamanjaro - Ed Rush Earth Vol. 1 - Good Looking Recs compilation The Rhode Tune - Flytronix Junglist (DJ Zinc remix) - Tribe Of Issachar

Major tunes 1997 Brown Paper Bag - Reprazent Warhead - DJ Krust Ni Ten Ichi Ryu - Photek Circles - Adam F Acid Track - Dillinja Shadow Boxing - Nasty Habits Piper - Jonny L New Forms album - Roni Size Reprazent (see picture above) Modus Operandi album - Photek Major Tunes 1998 Bambaata - Shy FX The Nine - Bad Company No Reality - Ram Trilogy Miles from Home - Peshay Salsa - John B Ultra Obscene - Breakbeat Era The One - Mampi Swift Killa Bees - Usual Suspects

Major tunes 1999 Clear Skyz - DJ Die Watermelon/Sicknote - Ed Rush & Optical Bacteria/Gas Mask - Ed Rush & Optical The Pulse - Bad Company The Fear EP - Bad Company Molten Beats LP - Ram Trilogy Ark Angel - Rufige Kru Twisted Individual - Muzik

Major tunes 2000 Tripped - Mampi Swift (picture disc above) Terrorist (Dom & Roland Remix) - Renegade Sonar (Trace & Optical remix) - DJ Trace Deadline - Digital Champion Sound (Total Science Hardcore Will Never Die Mix) - Q Project

Major tunes 2001 Go Dillinja - Dillinja Body Rock - Andy C & Shimon Planet Dust - Bad Company Jungle Jungle - Total Science Lose Control - Marcus Intalex & ST Files Midnight - Un-Cut feat. Jenna G Cybotron LP - Dillinja '01

Major Tunes 2002 LK (Carolina Carol Bela) - DJ Marky, XRS feat Stamina MC Shake Ur Body - Shy FX & T Power feat. Di Don't Wanna Know - Shy FX & T Power feat. MC Skibadee & Di Messiah - Konflict Return of Forever - High Contrast Twist 'Em Out - Dillinja Big Bad Bass Vol. 1 - Dillinja & Lemon D

Major tunes 2003-'04 School Disco - Baron '03 Tooled Up Remixes EP (incl Gimp Mask & Crap Rinse Out mixes) - Twisted Individual '03 Billion Dollar Gravy album - London Elekricity '03 In The Grind - Dillinja '04 True Romance - D-Bridge & Vegas '04 Racing Green - High Contrast '04 So Vain - Breakage '04 Drop It Down - Calibre ft Singing Fats '04 The Odyssey - Drumsound & Simon 'Bassline' Smith '04 You're Mine - Potential Bad Boy ft Yush '04 No More - Roni Size ft Beverly Knight & Dynamite MC '04 Defcon 69 - Total Science '04 X-Ray - Subfocus '04

Major tunes 2005-'06 Love's Theme - Chase & Status '05 Selector - DJ Hazard '05 Break The Cycle - Hive & Keaton ft Gina Rene '05 Forever - Ill Logic & Raf '05 Thirsty (Lemon D Tearout Mix) - ODB & Black Keith '05 Bollock Yoghurt - Twisted Individual '05 Slam - Pendulum '05 Slippery Slopes - Clipz '05 Thunder - DJ Die & Photek ft Hollie G '05 Desperado - Artificial Intelligence '05 Girlz - Potential Bad Boy & MC Fats ft Yush '05 Feelings - Shy FX '05 Tarantula - Fresh vs Pendulum ft Tenor Fly & Spyda '05 The Immortal - Fresh '06 Deep - TC & Jakes '06 Voodoo (Pendulum remix) - The Prodigy '06 Drive In - Baron '06 Everyday - Shy FX & T Power '06


subfocus - swamp thing

1992 Dub War - Dance Conspiracy

1993 Helicopter Tune - Deep Blue (thanks Mr Jones) Further Intrigue pts 1, 2, 3 - Tango and Fallout Don't Come No Ruffer - DJ SS

Bludclot Artattack - Ed Rush

1996 Quest - Andy C Still - Boymerang (released 97) Sight Beyond - John B

1998 Sound in Motion - Origin Unknown Turbulence - Moving Fusion Tough At The Top - EZ Rollers Funktion - Ed Rush and Optical


solarise - jmagik Shy Fx - Chopper

2002 -

Vault - Pendulum Mo' Fire - Rawhill Cru

2003 -

Nosher - Total Science (Baron Remix) Don't Tell Me - Concord Dawn Another Planet - Pendulum Signal - Fresh Bandwagon Blues - Twisted Individual

2004 -

Odyssey - Simon Bassline Smith & Drumsound Masochist - Pendulum Turnstyle - Baron (Zen Remix) Pack of Wolves - Nightbreed Follow Da Vision - Krust


Black Secret Technology - A Guy Called Gerald 1995

Parallel Universe - 4Hero 1995

Timeless - Goldie 1995

Colours - Adam F 1997

Logical Progression - LTJ Bukem 1996

New Forms - Roni Size & Reprazent 1997

Wormhole - Ed Rush & Optial 1998

Cybotron - Dillinja 2001

Clockwork - Skynet & Stakka 2001

Torque - DJ Trace & Ed Rush 1997

Book of the Bad - Bad Company 2001

Mysteries of Funk - Grooverider 2001

Set It Off - Shy Fx & T-Power 2002

Nightlife - Andy C 2003

Lie Cheat & Steal - Klute 2003

Andy C Presents Ram Raiders the Mix - Andy C 2004

High Society - High Contrast 2004

Driving Insane - Black Sun Empire 2004

Return to V - Roni Size 2004

Chronology - Dom & Roland 2004

Power Ballads - London Elektricity 2005

Brave Nu World - Nu Tone 2005

Hold Your Colours - Pendulum 2005

Ghetto Blatser - Cyantific 2006

Jenna G - For Lost Friends 2006

bad company - the nine 1999 bad company - torpedo 2002

1994 Predator - Shimon Da Bass II Dark - Asylum

1996 The Unofficial Ghost - Doc Scott

1998 Wish you had something - Jonny L

dillinja - grimey M.I.S.T - warp 1 ed rush & optical wormhole lp optical - to shape the future remix future cut - whiplash code red - ?conquering lion? dom & roland - cant punish me bad company - the pulse 2000 (remix) kenny ken - everyman dj krust - angles ram trilogy - no reality (remix) calibre - mr majestic jo - r-type Liquid - Sweet Harmony 2 Bad Mice - Bombscare Zero B - Lock Up Isotonik - Different Strokes Doc Scott - NHS Manix - Feel Real Good SL2 - DJ's Take Control Sonz Of a Loop Da Loop Era - Far Out Rabbit City - Beyond Control rap - so in love, roughest gunark, more time..... lighter tune -dj ss aphrodite- deep in the jungle guntalk - rebel rose dred bass - B2B remix dj taktix - our children, ray keith - the chopper (original/shy fx remix) (dread) ray keith - dark soldier (dread) dj rap(?) - spritual aura dead dred - dred bass (moving shadow) dj krome & mr time - ganja man (tearin vinyl) dj krome & mr time - the licence (tearin vinyl) mask - square off (dope dragon) new blood - worries in the dance q-project - champion sound (legend) taktix - its the way (back 2 basics) jo - r-type (awesome) the house crew - super hero (production house) noise factory - breakage 4 (i bring you the future) (3rd party) shy fx - this style (s.o.u.r.) a-zone - calling all the people l-double - little rollers vol 1 (flex) dj nut nut - special dedication (hard step) ray keith - something out there (dread) demolition man ft prizna - fire (original/urban shakedown mix) mampi swift - 2nd strike (true playaz) mampi swift - jaws (charge) moving fusion - the beggining e.p. (ram) bad company & trace(?) - nitrous Valley of the shadows marvelous cain - hitman (i.d.(?)) 1994 m-beat - rumble (renk) riiiide the punnaaany! splash - babylon (deejay) shy fx - the message (dunno if this was released on anything other than a bootleg) dopeskills - 6 million ways (frontline) tribe of issachar - junglist (congo natty) 1996(?) dj trend - 2 degrees (tnt) jb - say what (the blind man) (back2basics) roni size - 26 bass/snapshot (full cycle) 1999 blackstar ft top cat - champion dj (congo natty) rebel mc ft tenor fly - wickedest sound (desire) 1991

Additional tracks [3]

I'd suggest creating a seperate entry perhaps with a graphic timeline to link into this article and the history of dnb article.

--Dustek 12:08, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

i would agree with most of the earlier selections there, but I would quetion a couple of the ravier examples.

There is no doubt drum and bass was a part of the rave scene to begin with. There is just a question as to whether people like Rebel MC, Ragga Twins. Gerald, Lennie de Ice / Reel 2 Reel, Genaside weren't doing something unique within rave / hip hop / ragga that got jumped on by a lot of the hardcore producers during the 1992 / 1994 period.

I'm not sure producers should get props for their ravey, cheesy, happy hardcore 1991 / 92 tunes just cause they went on to do jungle in '93 / '94. Just give them their props for the later tunes IMO. And I am someone who loves rave, and grew up on it btw, but this is about jungle and drum & bass.

If those ravey tunes get included, I would prefer a lot of the bleep and belgian stuff got included too, casue a lot of that is more relevant to drum & bass than happy, piano rave tunes, but then you're gonna be looking at a massive list. Just exclude the cheesy rave IMO.

--Digest 8 May 2007

I'd actually prefer somebody else other than me to cull the list and make it presentable.

I'm sure that a list of significant tracks would immediately become a battleground for arguments over what is significant and what is not, which in turn is a good thing as conflict leads to creativity. We've been stagnating a bit here...

--Dustek 14:18, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Paragraph Removal

I have removed part of a paragraph:

"These techniques are fully appreciated in a club or rave environment as only large, professional-grade woofers, coupled with powerful cross-over amplifiers, can fully reproduce the sound of the eponymous bass drum, the frequencies of which are sometimes lower than audible (they can however be felt on the body). This has led to the creation of very large and intensely loud soundsystems by producers wishing to show off their tracks in a true high fidelity environment, such as Dillinja's Valve Sound System. This does not mean, however, that the music cannot be appreciated on personal equipment."


Firstly, the statement that only professional grade woofers are capable of reproducing the basslines present within drum and bass is simply untrue. Using spectographic analysis software the lowest frequencies the vast majority of tracks hit is around 30hz, well within the range of many decent hifi systems, studio monitor systems (how do you think producers mix the stuff in the first place?) and subwoofers. There is no such thing as a "cross-over amplifer", crossovers do a different job to amplifiers, and they are rarely part of the same unit in home or pro audio. It is also worth noting that "intensely loud" and "high fidelity" are not particularly related, and i doubt that many people would classify the valve sound system, for example as "hi-fi", though impressive it is.

I think it could be stated that many people feel that drum and bass is more enjoyable in a club environment, and i believe the valve sound system and others is of note, however the section i removed was basically a load of crap

Noodle snacks 11:34, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

In comes somebody deleting sections because they do not like them.

Bad editing etiquette.

Drum and bass is perfectly listenable at home on a good system. However there is no way that a typical home system can produce the same range of sound as a club system. The Valve Soundsystem is a high fidelity system. It was not created to be loud, but to accurately reproduce music. It is a deep bass system playing bass that cannot be recreated at home. It is of course loud but it remains hi-fidelity.

I'm returning part of the archive as I think this is the same guy again.

--Dustek 12:48, 12 May 2007 (UTC) bias

This article seems to be written as if it is taken for grated that drum and bass is the best thing that ever happened to music, I have already corrected several ridiculous comments such as one claming that drum and bass has particularly fine sonic qualities that cannot be reproduced on home equipment. (This of course is rubbish and assumes that no one in the world has a sub woofer or a volume knob that goes above 90dB). This sort of article is what brings wikipedia down, it is obviously written by fans of the genre who have little to no knowledge of the wider world of music or its technology, and as such ready more like propaganda than an encyclopaedia. I move that this article be removed for serious revision by an unbiased party. [End of statement]

The part you mention quite clearly referred to the frequency response, not "fine sonic quality". It's easy to mock something as ridiculous when you completely reword it in a ridiculous way. Perhaps you can find the average consumer hi-fi, ghettoblaster or ipod headphones which produce a decent 30hz subbass? Oh wait - they don't. Hence the article's original, correct, and not biased or propagandist, comment. Stevekeiretsu 19:43, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

First of all sign your name.

Second of all, nowhere is the statement made that dnb is the 'best' type of music.

Thirdly, it is provable that dnb is best appreciated on high quality sound equipment, to a larger degree than some other types music. Highly procued dnb (say Dillinja) uses low range frequencies that cannot be reproduced on home equipment, unless it is of very high quality. This of course differentiates it from say pop or rock which have less demanding frequency response. Nobody is writing that dnb is better because of this response. If you do not understand why dnb demands high quality listening conditions, then you have no knowledge of music.

Fourthly, this article has gone through a 'good article' review which did not find it biased.

Fifthly, if you think an unbiased article on dnb is biased, then you're biased against it.

Sixthly, if you have a point to make, discuss it here before you make your biased comments in the text.

Seventhly, take your combative attitude somewhere else.

--Dustek 16:21, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Eightly, if you want to call bollocks on dnb producers and journalists (http://www.knowledgemag.co.uk/features.asp?SectionID=1031&uid=&MagID=1063&ReviewID=1653&PageNumber=1&arcMagID=1060), then do so but it doesn't look good on you. Who is biased?

--Dustek 16:39, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

It is debatable as to if what are essentially PA systems (such as the valve sound system), could be considered high quality in the scheme of things. I would go so far as to say that drum and bass demands less high quality listening conditions than say, a stereo recording of a string quartet. If you had any experiance producing tracks, you would realise the amount of processing that sounds go through. "Quality" demands are not very high. I'd also question your understanding of "frequency response", much PA gear rolls off at 10-15khz and the best of pro audio subs roll off at 30hz at the lowest. There is often a misconception regarding bass and how "low" frequencies actually are. PA systems are certainly capable of much higher SPL levels, however they are definately not capable of more extended frequency response, at either end of the spectrum. Most pro audio subwoofers, (since bass is the main issue here), are either bandpass, ported or horn loaded in design. bandpass/ported boxes will roll off at 24db/oct after their cutoff frequency, so if they are speced to have a -3db point at 30hz, then they will be nearly 30db down by 15hz, making it highly unlikely that these subsonics you talk of are produced. Horn subwoofers also roll off fairly quickly after their respective cutoff frequencies, and often have to be divided into multiple boxes that form one mouth to get the size down. If you had any experiance designing these kinds of enclosures you would realise that there is a relationship between box volume, efficiency and low frequency extension. Pro-Audio subwoofers have to be bigger to get the same extension as home audio ones, as they are more efficient, a 30hz cut-off (-3db) is about as low as you get before the boxes become inpractical to use. IIRC correctly the valve sound system is stacks of horn loaded subs. I wonder how one can get an unbiased party in here to make an objective descision, preferably one that has some real audio knowledge and experiance.

220.253.105.16 23:21, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm removing the debatable comment.

Dillinja states that the Valve Sound System is a high fidelity system, not a high volume system. He is referenced in the text. I think he has real audio knowledge and experience. [4]

If you find him debatable, please find & cite references.

I'm not against modifying this article, to bring this forward what you need to do is provide references, not your knowledge and POV.

Oh, most home systems will not reproduce bass because most home systems have tiny plastic subwoofers, if they have them at all.

--Dustek 10:03, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

I want to know exactly what part of this paragraph is debatable:

These bass techniques are fully appreciated in a club or rave environments which are generally where high quality woofers and coupled high powerful amplifiers can be found. Large systems can fully reproduce the sound of the eponymous bass drum in the most demanding productions, the frequencies of which are sometimes lower than audible (they can however be felt on the body). This has led to the creation of very large and intensely loud touring soundsystems by producers wishing to show off their tracks in a true high fidelity environment, such as Dillinja's Valve Sound System which was created as a high-fidelity, not high volume, sound system. Dillinja refuses to play even 'standard' club system believing them to be inadequate to fully reproduce the bass frequencies to his levels. [1]This does not mean, however, that the music cannot be appreciated at home or acceptably accurately reproduced on personal equipment.

--Dustek 10:20, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

The first paragraph is biased, as that the bass techniques are only "fully appreciated" within a club environment, which represents a viewpoint, not fact. You shouldn't need a reference to realise this. The word "high fidelity" is also thrown about a fair bit, the definition of high fidelity used here does not match that of the relevant wikipedia article, hence this term should be avoided. One of the major problems with large sound reinforcement systems such as valve is the large number of mid-top boxes. They cause comb filtering, due to the delay involved between each sound source, this makes it very difficult to get flat response, because the effect varies with position, it can't be EQed out. Most kick drums have a fundemental of around 80hz (take a look on an RTA), it isn't the kick drums that constitute the low bass lines, often its a reece (two slightly detuned sawtooth waves with a lowpass and processing, distortion etc) or some sort of edited 808 (sine with some lfo on the frequency right at the attack to give it some punch and an ADSR filter) "bass-line" or "bass" may be more accurate terminology.

Noodle snacks 04:28, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm fine with the edit as it stands now, there is not much point wasting more time and energy over this issue and the paragraph is a fine compromise. People - please get involved with improving the article in other ways. --Dustek 17:37, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Fabric Live 18.jpeg

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Dear bot, THERE IS A FAIR USE RATIONALE.

--Dustek 22:08, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

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This bot is running rampant, its behaviour is scandalous. --Dustek 20:14, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Replaced Roni with Pendulum but if anybody wants to add images, please do so. Remember about left-right formating.

--Dustek 14:47, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Drill and Bass

Soon after album-based British techno producers like Aphex Twin and Squarepusher got their hands on drum'n'bass during the mid-'90s, they naturally twisted it to their own ends. The result was Drill'n'bass, a spastic form of breakbeat jungle that relied on powerful audio software and patient programming to warp old midtempo beats and breaks into a frenzied, experimental potpourri of low-attention-span electronic music. Beginning in mid-1995, three figures led the charge with pioneering EPs: Aphex Twin (Hangable Auto Bulb), Luke Vibert's Plug project (Plug 1), and Squarepusher (Conumber). The following year, drill'n'bass went overground with full-length releases by each of the above, most notably Plug's Drum'n'bass for Papa and Squarepusher's debut album Feed Me Weird Things. Soon the rush was on, and a group of artists emerged with immediately identifiable ties to drill'n'bass, including Animals on Wheels, Amon Tobin, Mung, and Plasmalamp. Drill'n'bass receded into the deep underground by 1998, an unsurprising event given the style's extreme nature.

-- All Music, thank you, http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=77:10985 Susume Eat

And?

Nonetheless, the drill and bass entry needs some references (as do all the subgenres entries).--Dustek 20:52, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pirate Radio influence

I think it would be worthwhile to add a hyper-link to 'Pirate Radio' so that the importance of the stations to drum & bass and whole scene are recognized. At the moment I can only see a link to an article on Kool FM. This link only partly tell Kools's story. I would recommend anyone reads Brian Belle-Fortune's book; All Crew Muss Big Up. This book contains a whole chapter on pirate radio's influence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.74.61.237 (talk) 21:01, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rockstep, metalstep and punkstep

Never heard of them, found virtually no web references and their wiki entries are a joke, so they have been deleted. Completely obscure subgenres are unencyclopedic. --Dustek 19:12, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Irish dnb

I'm going to need some references on the origins of dnb being in Ireland, simultaneously. I don't think I've ever heard of an Irish origin.

--Dustek 08:49, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Agree. I always thought D&B was originated by Jamacians living in London. Netrat_msk (talk) 22:14, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Youtube - Shanghai Goldie

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oD2OTWHppzs


http://www.dnbforum.com/showthread.php?t=27412&page=2

--Dustek 22:54, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dnb abbreviations

I strongly opt for keeping all the variations of dnb/drum n bass in the beginning of the article. Drum & bass is abbreviated in various ways by various people. It is not only "drum and bass", but also "drum & bass", "dnb", "d&b" "drum n bass", "d n'b", etc. These variations may appear to minor but are remember that they are valid terms and used terms and Google and the wiki engine will link to this page IF these abbreviations appear on the page. --Dustek 22:55, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Left right alignment

Common courtesy would have deleting editors fix the left right alignment of deleted images.


--Dustek 22:54, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ghettotech

There was an edit in 'influenced by dnb' referring to dnb. I'd need to get some references showing that.

That said, I like ghettotech and mixed it before switching (again) to dnb. GT is a lot more influenced by Miami Bass than dnb (and Miami Bass influenced dnb... parallel evolution)

--Dustek (talk) 17:38, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hipstep

I've been hearing the term bandied around but I'll need to see an article in the musical press or a major release to back up its genuine, nonfad, subgenre status. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dustek (talk • contribs) 21:23, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Techmospheric

Since this is "arguably not a recognised sub-genre", and there don't seem to be any sources, I've AfD'ed the article here. Comments would be welcome, especially if any sources can be found. - Zeibura (Talk) 00:41, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Zeibura

Thanks for your constant work on this article!

--Dustek (talk) 13:18, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] How is it actually made?

I would really like to start making my own D&B but have no idea how or what to use. How do artists like Clipz, Dillinja, Friction, Andy C, etc.. make their tunes? Do they use computer programs to make custom drum loops and bass lines, etc.. and what do you suggest I use to start making my music? Thanks an answer would be a huge help here!

...

Search on Google. --Dustek (talk) 08:36, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Deletion of history section

Who deleted the history section and why?

--Dustek (talk) 08:17, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ripoff artist

Check out the 'history of drum and bass' on squidoo

www.squidoo.com/the-history-of-drum-and-bass

--Dustek (talk) 08:19, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Merger proposal

I propose that Neurofunk be merged here as a non-notable minor sub-genre. Article is lacking in reliable sources and appears to be largely OR. --neon white talk 21:17, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Stylistic origins

Stylistic origins lists both breakbeat hardcore and breakbeat. What exactly is the difference? Are they separate genres? Or is one just a harder version of another? Is so, why list both? Second, Jazz is mentioned among stylistic origins. That's not true. Jazz-influnced D&B did not arrive until min-90's. Netrat_msk (talk) 22:13, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Not sure, the entire breakbeat hardcore seems to be original research and should probably be merged with Hardcore techno. There seem to be alot of non-notable sub sub genres and alternative terms with unsourced articles that could do with some work to clean them up. --neon white talk 16:30, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Legality of sampling?

Drum and bass is a style which borrows a lot of samples from other genres, and quite often I hear commercial releases from relatively unknown producers with recognizable samples from large titles (i'm specially referring to vocals).

What's the legal status of sampling in reality? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.81.137.198 (talk) 11:36, 9 June 2008 (UTC)