Talk:Drug test

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Contents 1 Buprenorphine detection 2 Recent notes 3 Oral fluid testing 4 NIDA 5 5 Poppy seeds 6 Original research 7 Second Hand Marijuana Smoke 8 Deletion 9 Court Cases 10 Canabis detection 11 Cocaine Detection 12 Citation for sweat patch false positives 13 Commercial links 14 Shampoo Comment 15 Oxycontin 16 Methadone Detection 17 help plz 18 False positives/Negatives 19 References 20 Hair Alcohol Testing 21 Detection Time for Marijuana for Hair Testing 22 General Information paragraph needs copyediting 23 Blood testing

[edit] Buprenorphine detection

Does buprenorphine (suboxone, subutex) show up in drug tests (urine)? I'd highly doubt it shows up in the NIDA-5 but what about the urine tests done in special blood/urine testing offices that test for a much wider variety of drugs? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.125.138.8 (talk) 07:02, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recent notes

All major screening tests WILL detect hydrocodone, oxycodone, hydromorphone, etc.(NOT TRUE - MOST WILL NOT - IT HAS TO DO WITH THE CUT OFF LEVEL AND SPECIFICITY-THIS IS PARTICULARLY TRUE FOR OXYCODONE), and the GCMS confirmation will verify the presence of those drugs, but they are not reported on a NIDA panel. An interesting point is that, from the laboratory's point of view, they are positive. However, only the opiates morphine, codeine and 6-acetylmorphine (a heroin metabolite) are legally reportable under NIDA/SAMHSA rules. In other words, the lab knows the sample is positive for other opiates, but legally they can only report three drugs.

So, good job! --ZZYZX 07:10, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

I thought hydromorphone and hydrocodone were synthesized from thebaine, which is a part of the papaver somniferum plant, however, an NIDA panel will indicate an inconclusive result if enough of either is detected, thus resulting in a confirmatory test. If desired, they do have confirmatory tests that can report the use of these metabolites.

You're right, the drugs you mentioned are opiates since they're synthesized from thebaine. But, as it has been explained to me, the lab can legally report ONLY three opiates for a NIDA test. That is morphine, codeine, and 6-acetylmorphine. There are plenty of other opiates and metabolites, but legal guidelines for the NIDA panel are in the way, not the technology. The federal government decides which drugs are *allowed* to be reported on this test. So even though the lab may see a bunch more drugs on the confirmation result, federal guidlines require they only report those three. So even if the person has a bunch of hydromorphone, hydrocodone, or oxycodone the lab can't legally report it. It's silly I know, but hey, that's the government for you.

So yeah, the lab has the ability to report all the drugs in the sample, but the federal government sets the rules for the NIDA panel, and the labs go by it. --ZZYZX 08:46, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Oral fluid testing

Your claims on oral fluid testing are a bit difficult to swallow (sorry for the lousy pun!)(MAX DETECTION TIME AT 1-2 NG/ML SENSIVITIY IS 24 HOURS IN MOST CASES)

Generally, the detection period for oral fluid (saliva) varies tremendously on what you're looking for, but currently the research for cannabis (following consumption of a single standard marijuana cigarette @ 1.75% THC) shows a window of dection for at most 6 hours (cut-off limit at SAMSHA proposed guideline of 2 ng/mL). A more accurate statement is that it would test positive for hours up to 24/36 hours at most, and certainly much less for THC.

Additionally, there is insufficient data at this stage to say that it is as 'accurate' as urine testing, the limited data published to date has shown wide variability in sensitivity and specificity, especially for on-site testing devices, mnay of which have a detection limit for THC as high as 10,000ng/mL (ie 5000 times greater than the proposed confirmation cut-off).

This is based on the proceedings from Seoul last year of The International Association of Forensic Toxicologists, of which I am a member.

This just inn : scientific literature indicates that it is uncommon for occasional marijuana smokers to test positive for cannabinoid [metabolites in urine for longer than seven days" at 20 ng/ml or above on the EMIT (Enzyme Multiplied Immunoassay Technique)]

Looks legit.

Could note 2. be rewritten? For me, now, it is unclear to me if the urine is clean for 6-8 hours for all the drugs, so.... maybe a little rewrite?--PetterBudt 22:02, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

There is currently an edit war between anonymous users who are changing the detection window of a saliva test back and forth from days to months, someone should keep an eye on that and look for material to cite . Runderwo 23:23, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

NOTE: I think we should listen to what any forensic toxicologist (content above) has to say on drug testing matters. The original info that I got on drug testing, including detection times, I got from a Ph.D forensic toxicologist. This person out-ranks all of us, including me. He/she should be able to answer any questions we have, and we should take his/her statements seriously. --ZZYZX 05:38, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Aha, my almost fogotten post from several months ago. Nice to see it still kicking around.

Unfortunately, the detection times for oral fluid are still way off. Benzodiazepines are not expressed in any significant concentration, and detecting them is extremely difficult in oral fluid and should read "not able to be detected in routine analysis" (see http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=13696283)

As to the Sympathomimetic amines (METH & MDMA), I haven't actually seen much data on timelines, but if there are any sources for these I'd like to see them (I suspect they're more or less educated guesses). I would have thought 48 hours was more realistic as an upper limit, given the plasma half life. (2-3 DAYS IS ABOUT RIGHT)

The point is you can detect anything if you look into the parts per billion range, but this requires very expensive and sophisticated equipment (like LC/MS/MS) which would never be done in a routine drug screening lab.

So..er...can someone who knows more about wikipedia than me make some changes?

[edit] NIDA 5

"Ecstacy (MDMA) may or may not be specifically tested for, but due to its structural similarity with methamphetamine (MDMA stands for methylene-dioxy-methamphetamine)"... but due what? I'm removing this sentence for the moment because it wasn't ever actually a sentence, but if whoever wrote it sees this again, please finish it. -Mulder416 17:37, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

I wrote that. When I wrote it, it was a complete sentence. The point being that since meth and MDMA are structurally similar to each other, most screening tests for amphetamines will have a positive result for meth, even in absence of any actual methamphetamine. There is enough cross-reactivity to confuse the screening test. It all gets sorted out during confirmation, though. --ZZYZX 11:01, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Poppy seeds

I've heard many times that you should not eat anything with poppy seeds before taking a drug test, because you will test positive for opiates. It sounds like an urban legend to me, but if it is, it's a very prevalent one. (THIS IS NOT A LEGEND-POPPY SEEDS DO BREAK DOWN TO MORPHINE AND CAN BE DETECT DEPENDING UPON HOW MUCH AND WHEN YOU EAT THEM) Does anyone who is actually familiar with the subject have a definite answer about this? TomTheHand 20:27, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

I do know that a cop once failed a random drug test after eating poppy-seed bagels. He was suspended for months before it was figured out.--Codenamecuckoo 10:31, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

I know of a person who ate a lot of seeds and did not test positive. This do not prove anything but the fact that 1 person did not prove positive. If this is a 1 in 10 or 1 in a million occurence I do not know(can you say for a fact what is it?). Do you know if your example proved the drug test is 99.99% accurate or 9%? What is needed is a link to reports who tell how accurate the test are AND, in this case, how accurate it is when a non user eat puppy seeds.--PetterBudt 12:54, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

It seems according to [Snopes] and [The Straight Dope] that poppy seeds can actually influence a drug test. TomTheHand 14:33, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

I checked the links. Both are anectdotal at best. no links to hard research facts, So i suggest we add a line like "There is anectdotal evidence that poppy seeds might affect a drugtest, but no research have so far proven this." to speed stuff up a little, lets say the line gets added 1.april if noone objects.

The Snopes article is well-sourced. In addition, it seems the show Mythbusters tested this and found it to be true. That is, they took a drug test which came out clean, ate foods with poppy seeds, and tested positive for opiates for the rest of the day (they were tested every half hour). See here, about halfway down the page, for a summary of the experiment. TomTheHand 16:00, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Poppy seeds do indeed contain low quantities of morphine and codeine, and if you eat enough of them, you will test positive. A friend of mine told me of an elderly lady who was fired for testing positive for opiates. She called the lab and must have seemed convincing enough that they were willing to help her. After asking her various questions about her diet, they found that she had eaten half a dozen of poppy-seed cookies. She was of Jewish descent, and the cookies she ate were apparently a common Jewish dish. After the lab explained what had happened, she did get her job back. --ZZYZX 10:51, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I think this should probably be mentioned somewhere here, and sourced. It's probably the single most common false positive people receive on drug tests. There is really no doubt as to whether one can test positive for opiates after consuming poppies--see Mythbusters, for one, but consider also numerous reports that one can make potent (potentially lethal, if mis-measured) opiate tea from poppy seeds alone. 76.114.172.199 21:54, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Strictly speaking, it's important to note that since poppy seeds do, in fact, contain morphine, that it is not considered a "false positive" for a poppy eater to test positive. Drug screens are only able to detect substances in the sample and are not able to discern how they got there, and so, since eating poppy seeds does, in fact, introduce morphine into the sample, it is inaccurate to say that the result is a "false positive." It is a true positive that may lead to a false conclusion. --206.194.127.112 (talk) 23:53, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I think that this is pretty iffy. When I worked at LabCorp doing GC/MS, we had all of these booklets to read about this type of thing. It may be possible to fail the "dipstick" type inital screening, but I would highly doubt that you'd have enough morphine etc. in your urine to fail a GC/MS. They set the minimum "positive" levels of the tests much higher than you'd think. I couldn't tell you how many tests I ran that were technically positive but not reported as positive. I wonder if some of these stories have to do with people being fired based on the preliminary, dipstick test? Maxpower212 (talk) 15:36, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Original research

I removed a lot of original research from this article. I am fine with a rigorously cited analysis of criticisms of drug testing. Perhaps literature from civil libertarian groups or other reputable sources could be used. But some of the stuff that gets dumped in this article was pure bollox. Wikipedia is not a soapbox for randos to harp on the evils of drug testing. This is an encyclopedia. savidan^{(talk) (e@)} 23:13, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Second Hand Marijuana Smoke

Can second hand marijuana smoke be detected in any of the four types of drug tests? If so, what are the time frames? Anyone have any conclusive answers? Please email me at omegawon@gmail.com , if possible. Thank you.

That depends upon the length of exposure to the smoke and how much smoke is present in the air. A police officer busting a party where marijuana is being smoked is unlikely to inhale enough to cause a positive result. On the other hand, if you're in a small car for 4 hours with people who are chain-smoking it, you probably will. If you inhale enough marijuana smoke to get high, you will definitely test positive. --ZZYZX 10:57, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

This web page gives some references to some medical testing that has been done on this subject. http://www.medscreen.co.uk/index.cfm?fuseaction=showFaq&asset_id=971 Kert01 (talk) 15:50, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Deletion

I deleted quite a bit of my own content here to save both space and the time of readers. If anyone has questions about any sections I removed, please ask me.

Also, I'd like to say that I do not agree with the statement that random drug testing is the "best return on investment" (or anything like it). I believe the best return on investment is the post-accident test, since it saves companies huge sums of money in court. In fact, I would argue that random testing is probably the WORST return on investment, since you have to test EVERY employee, very often. I think that line should be removed. --ZZYZX 08:58, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Not every employee. The idea is to test enough so that the chance of being caught after using a substance is high enough to discourage use - something like 5% of people per month. While the risk of being caught is low, it is out of the user's control and the consequences are severe. Facts on ROI from methods are required - and whether return is drug use reduction or capital protection.

[edit] Court Cases

Any references toward the US and other court systems toward use of Urinalysis by government agencies such as School, Police, Government Workers and the Military?--Nuke-Marine 23:21, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

The relevant court case is Skinner v. Railway Labor Executives. It paved the way for randomized drug tests of employees in "safety sensitive" positions in the United States. I'll enter it into the article later this week if I get a chance. The dissenting opinion by justices Marshall and Brennan is particularly interesting. MoodyGroove 05:38, 28 January 2007 (UTC)MoodyGroove

[edit] Canabis detection

As far as I know and managed to find on internet there is no way cannabis is detected in urine after 3 years, 3 weeks is more likely and with realy heavy and long time users 3 months but 3 years is too long right????(TYPICAL DETECTIN FOR THC IS 3-5 DAYS-SOMETIME THOUGH RARELY LONGER) Genius82 12:39, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. I don't know what idiot changed it to 3 years, but there is absolutely NO evidence to support anything close to that value. I'm changing it back to 30 days.

--ZZYZX 10:28, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Someone keeps changing this. Now it's up to 2 months, which I've _never_ seen before. Just yesterday this page showed the period for cannabinoids to be 18-21 days for chronic users. The NORML article this page links to at the bottom reports the period is now thought to be around 3 weeks for heavy users. Not that NORML is the most objective source, but it would be against their interests to report bad facts on a sensitive matter such as this.

I was a daily heavy cannabis smoker for 8 years. I quit awhile back and I tested myself every couple of weeks with a immunoassay urine dip test. It took 5 months for me to get a good negative. At 3 months I got a very faint negative, but in subsequent testing there were times I would get a positive. I used no cleansers during this period. So, beware of claims that you will be negative in 30 days if you smoke potent cannabis daily.

This will depend on a number of things, including body fat and metabolism. Smokeat emptor. ;)

Maxpower212 (talk) 15:40, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Cocaine Detection

Cocaine 1 to 3 days ? Wouldent 2-4 days be more accurate? From the cocaine article "Cocaine metabolites are detectable in urine for up to four days after cocaine is used." (TOO MANY VARIABLES TO SAY 2-4 DAYS FOR CERTAIN, BUT IN GENERAL- YES)

Yes. In fact, I can't imagine cocaine metabolites going away in urine after only 24 hours. Every lab I know of tests for the metabolite benzylecognine, which remains for at least 2 days. Perhaps the person who changed the original value from 2 to 1 day was thinking of cocaine itself, not its metabolite(s).

This probably shouldn't be included in the article, but concurrent alcohol/cocaine use can also be detected, as a unique drug complex (coca-ethylene) is produced in the body, and it's even more potent than cocaine. An equally unique metabolite is also produced, and can be detected in blood, urine, and hair. ZZYZX 12:52, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Citation for sweat patch false positives

If someone has the time, I found a citation for the problem with false positives with respect to the patch:

http://stopthedrugwar.org/chronicle-old/167/thepatch.shtm

I know it's a pro-drug site, but the article is based upon a legal case in Nevada. The procecution dropped a case against a female on probation after an expert witness admitted there were problems with this method of drug testing. If anyone here knows how find and cite legal cases, this would be an interesting one. In the meantime, I'm going to change the "citation needed" to an inline external link ZZYZX 12:52, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Just fyi -- it's not a pro-drug site, it's an anti-drug war site. Big difference. --Xiaphias 20:47, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Commercial links

I removed the commercial links. Please see WP:EL and WP:NOT.MoodyGroove 23:21, 1 February 2007 (UTC)MoodyGroove

[edit] Shampoo Comment

I removed the following line from the article, since it had no source. If someone can source this, that'd be great.

There are shampoos currently on the market that can clean toxins from the hair.

Thanks, ^demon^{[omg plz]} 19:59, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Oxycontin

Does the table data for Codeine also emcompass Oxycontin, due to their high similarity? (ABSOLUTLY NOT - OXYCONTIN / OXYCODONE IS A SEPARATE SEMI-SYNTHETIC COMPOUND - MOST DRUGS SCREENS DO NOT DETECT) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.162.187.213 (talk) 20:03, 19 March 2007 (UTC).

I would say no. Oxycodone is metabolized into oxymorphone, so you'd have to look up the half-life of oxymorphone and find an opioid in the list that has a similar half-life. That should give you a reasonable estimate of detection time for oxycodone. Then. keep in mind that Oxy-Contin is a sustained-release formulation (12 hours IIRC), so that would likely add a day or two to the detection time. ZZYZX 07:17, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Methadone Detection

I'm going to be as careful as possible to say this in a way that I don't have to cite anything. . . Some time within the last year I read some information pertaining to dection of methadone in urine tests. It claimed that methadone, while it is an opiate, is not detected in a standard opiate test. It claimed that a methadone specific test needed to be done to detect it. Whether this is definately true or not, I won't try to say.

That being said, I took the risk with this information many times in the last year. I have been on random urine testing (3 per month now) during this year. I have taken methadone often, and it has never showed up in a UA.

It is possible that something will be different between my drug tests and someone else's, so please do not take this as an encyclopedic fact that you will not test positive. I am only posting my personal experience. If anyone can find this information from a reputable source, a citation would be more than welcome.

--Chronic Addict 01:49, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Methadone is more accurately named an "opioid" as opposed to an "opiate." While it behaves in a manner similar to opiates and, if I recall correctly, binds to the same receptors, its chemical structure is not remotely similar to morphine or any other opiate, and therefore it is impossible for it to trigger a positive opiate screen. If a screen finds methadone, it is only because the examiner was looking specifically for it. --206.194.127.112 (talk) 23:57, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Methadone is included in LabCorp's expanded GC/MS test, which is given after a positive on the preliminary test. (per personal work experience) Maxpower212 (talk) 15:45, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] help plz

how long does thc or cannabis or marijuana really stay in your blood system?

Interestingly, there has been some very recent research done (the name of the woman who did it escapes me at the moment) on this very subject. She tested chronic marijuana smokers and found that in a small percentage, it collects in fat tissues and therefore was able to detect it after seven days in blood. This was presented a few months ago at a conference and is, understandably, very controversial. The experiment has not yet been repeated, though, so for now the best anyone can say regarding the answer to this question is "let me get back to you." --206.194.127.112 (talk) 00:00, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] False positives/Negatives

This whole article works off the assumption that drug testing is 100% reliable to begin with. Is this really true? I was under the impression that a number of substances and circumstances can cause false positive and false negative results. 204.194.98.66 15:24, 20 July 2007 (UTC)(THE DEVIL IS IN THE DEFINITION - TECHNICALLY, NO SUCH THING AS A FALSE POSITIVE WITH GC/MS OR LC/MS/MS, UNLESS MIRROR ISOMERS ARE INVOVLED-AND THEY DO EXIST, THAT'S WHY DOCS ARE ALSO INVOLVED.)

I don't see how you think the article necessarily gives this impression. Introduce a section on false negatives and positives, if you find the research to make it solid. 76.114.172.199 21:56, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

There are a number of quality controls in place to err on the side of caution. IME, without getting into too much detail, each test result is reviewed by at least 3 different people: the analyst (who only looks for clean test results, i.e. no errors in detection), a data reviewer (who basically also does the same), and a doctor who certifies it. Tests will be redone from scratch (i.e. re-aliquoted and re-extracted, then re-tested) if MS peaks aren't perfect peaks, if the ratio of peak signal:noise isn't 10:1, if maintenance hasn't been performed on a GC/MS in a certain amount of time, if the result isn't above a certain demonstrated minimum (LOQ), etc. I don't think the article means to imply that drug testing is 100% reliable, as no test really is. However, I think that there are a lot of precautions to ensure that the best results are sent for both the client company and the testee. The testing company doesn't want to send bad results to a client, but they also want to cover themselves in the result of a lawsuit and its subsequent scrutiny. Maxpower212 (talk) 15:54, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] References

It wouldn't hurt if someone could give references to detection periods, so we could just revert changes not consistent with any references.

As it is now, it seems a majority of the changes are just changing a 3 to a 5 or a weeks to a days. This of course makes me realize the contents of the article is more or less random as it stands today. VLE 10:49, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hair Alcohol Testing

I'm new to Wikipedia, so I didn't want to edit the article but I'm not sure that the points made in the hair alcohol testing section are wholly true:

A few of the laboratories in the UK that i'm aware of do not section hair for a month by month analysis due to the potential for such markers to be leeched out of the hair over time. Examples of this are:

   * See the 4th question down:

Can I recognise a pattern of abuse? No, because we do not section the hair month by month and carry out periodic analysis. Our research has shown this is unsound scientific practice because the markers can migrate along the hair shaft. http://www.surescreen.com/picture.php?prodid=HAAK

   * See the 4th paragraph down:

Unlike testing hair samples for drug misuse, it is not yet possible to rule out the effects of normal hygiene practices such as shampooing when analysing alcohol consumption over a period of many months. http://www.tricho-tech.co.uk/pages/dalcohol.htm

   *
         o READ THE DISCUSSION SECTION:

As in previous investigations, concentrations of FAEE were also found in hair of teetotallers (Auwärter et al., 2001Go). http://alcalc.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/39/1/33

I think that it is also not true to note that the more of a biomarker is present, the more alcohol you have consumed. This surely varies depending on the unique metabolism of the individual - i.e some people's bodies break down the alcohol better than others.

The diagram seems to suggest that the concentration of alcohol in the various biological samples is measured and plotted against time. This contrasts with the text above it which suggests that biological markers are detected (and not alcohol). Due to the differing ways in which people metabolise alcohol it is impossible to quantify how much of a substance they have consumed from simply detecting biological markers, and thus the graph is flawed.

               + SEE THIS INFORMATION FROM http://www.surescreen.com/list.php?cat=3#HAAK***

Can you determine how much alcohol a person has had monthly? No. Although we will give a value in our report, we can only say that the value exceeds our interpretation of the cut off level we have set, which is 60 grams of alcohol per day over a protracted period. We cannot interpret how much alcohol was actually consumed. To do so would be scientifically unsound because alcohol is metabolised in slightly different ways by different people.

All of this information might also influence the text on hair alcohol testing which is on the Drug Testing page. More information can be found at www,hairalcoholtesting.com. The company claimes to do a numerous amount of tests using the patent pending methodology around FAEE markers which do have scientific reference associated. Its intresting that as soon as these were offered by the company sections of this site changed.. the company certainly has had much media to include UK national papers and industry legal press around the subject.

[edit] Detection Time for Marijuana for Hair Testing

I'm not sure why it says the hair testing detection time for marijuana is 120 days, while it says all the others is 90. Can anyone find a source supporting this? I'm pretty positive that marijuana has a 90 day detection period just like other drugs. I have some pretty good sources so support this, but I'm looking around for a regulation document that may specify this.

--GSalvatore (talk) 02:52, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I think it stays in your hair pretty much forever, so until the time where the last haircut removes that last part of the follicle that picked up metabolites, the test is positive. Im not sure,but this is the impression from everything I have ever seen, heard, or read on the issue. Some people say it is why Britney Spears got her head shaved. Crd721 (talk) 06:33, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] General Information paragraph needs copyediting

The first paragraph under the first header, entitled "General Information About...", needs copyediting. It doesn't make sense as it currently stands. I don't know enough about the topic to do it myself. Bry9000 (talk) 03:38, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Blood testing

Hmm, seems a no-brainer that there should be a section on blood testing, but I don't seem to see one... If I have time, perhaps I'll add it. --206.194.127.112 (talk) 00:01, 15 May 2008 (UTC)Hi whats up