Talk:Drow (Dungeons & Dragons)

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[edit] Origins

The origins of the "Drow" preceed Dungeons & Dragons, probably by hundreds of years. Not only do we have the "Trow" of the Scottish Orkney Isle in folklore, but also the "Drow" of Shetland Isle. It is probably also related to the terms "Dokkaelfar" (Norse, meaning "Dark Elf", as opposed to "Svartaelfar" which means "Black Elf") and "Du-Sith" (Gaelic, meaning "Black Elf").

Webster's Unabridged Dictionary (1970) states that: "Drow, n., [scot.] A tiny elf which lived in caves and forged magick metal work."

So there's a reference to the Drow three years prior to the publication of Dungeons & Dragons and seven years prior to the inclusion of "the Drow" in that particular role-playing game.

I've heard rumors that TSR/Wizards/Hasbro/Whatever it is this month owns a copyright on the Drow and that Gary Gygax claimed they were his own intellectual property. However, the above should indicate that the Drow are not the sole domain of Dungeons & Dragons, that they are no living person's (or company's) intellectual property, and that any copyright on this matter is invalid.

In any event, the Drow are most certainly NOT just "a species of elf in the Dungeons & Dragons roleplaying game", and should probably not have been introduced as such.

Please sign your comments. Also, this information should probably only be on the talk page and not the main article, since it isnt in encyclopedic form. I agree with you, however, that the drow should not be referred to as simply a D&D race if there is evidence that the concept existed before D&D; however, you need to present this information in a manner that is consistent with the rest of the article. DryGrain 19:12, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Well, the evidence (reference) is above. Perhaps a Drow (Historical) page or sub-section would be best? Or a listing for the word "Drow" and "Dokkaelfar" on the Dark Elf page, alongside "Trow" and "Svartaelfar"? --209.206.169.229 10:15, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation

Should this include an explanation of the pronunciation of drow? (In the D&D games, it is like brow, rather than like crow, but I am not certain of the original word.)

Done :) ··gracefool |☺ 10:44, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
That pronunciation doesn't help much. What is "aʊ"? → JarlaxleArtemis 01:06, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)
You haven't got the correct software installed to see it; it appears to those that do as an upside-down horse shoe shape—the International Phonetic Alphabet symbol for that sound. -Erolos 19:58, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
For some strange reason, I can see the symbol in the article but not on this talk page. What I meant, though, was that I don't know what the symbol means. I assume it stands for the "ow" sound as in "cow." I'm not sure, though. → JarlaxleArtemis 00:50, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)
I don't know it myself and I couldn't immediately find somewhere that didn't explain the alphabet's pronounciations in non-linguistic terms, but from what is written in International Phonetic Alphabet for English I'd say it is an "ow" sound. -Erolos 13:55, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
As we are discussing about the Drow of the Dungeons & Dragons Setting, I like to refer to an official, written statement of the D&D authors: At page 9 of the "A Grand Tour of the Realms"-booklet (2nd edition Forgotten Realms boxed set) it is stated: "Dark elves, also called Drow (pronounced to rhyme with now or how)..." Thus I assume that D:rou (which ryhmes with "now"). Grimmblut 01:54, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Long-time D&D author Frank Mentzer wrote an article called "Ay pronunseeAYshun gyd" in Dragon #93 which has it pronounced both ways. However, in my experience, the pronunciation that rhymes with "now" seems to be more accepted.--Robbstrd 22:50, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

The "correct" pronunciation of Drow is taken from Page 9 of A Grand Tour of the Realms (2nd edition Forgotten Realms boxed set) where it states, "Dark elves, also called Drow (pronounced to rhyme with now or how)..."

It lists both, simply because people were pronoucing it both rhyming with throw and now, before those books probably came out, or they never just read it. I'd prefer to keep it now, after reading several threads, websites, etc, on the matter. People wouldn't have kept changing it to 'rhyming with throw' if they hadn't heard it several times, no? Google the debate on it, you'll find several. Disinclination 03:43, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Speculation is all well & good, but not official. Both pronunciations should remain until WotC releases an offical statement, though I suppose one could place something like "pronounced drow (now), or (rarely) drow (throw)" could be worked in.--Robbstrd 22:48, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Undead

I was reading Altgermanische Religionsgeschichte by Jan de Vries (a widely used standard work on Germanic paganism) and on p. 356 in volume II, he mentions that the draugr "lives on in the Shetland Isles as drow or trow". So it would appear that the drow was originally a kind of undead. See also trow. --Salleman 06:44, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

That's not a kind of undead, dumbass. It's a creature somewhat related to the Scandinavian troll, and in Celtic mythology, drow are a type of Fomorian.

[edit] Article intro

There has been a little revert war involving JarlaxleArtemis and Robbstrd (I made the initial revert). Firstly, Robbstrd, Jarlaxle didn't insult anything. Secondly, I think he has a point — a Wikiproject better have a good reason to override general practice in the rest of Wikipedia. However, when I actually look at Wikipedia:WikiProject Role-playing games, I see:

For articles on role-playing games, we recommend the following layout:
Title is a genre [[role-playing game]], designed by designer and published by current publisher.

The project's example article also follows this. So, as far as I can see, both general practice and especially Wikipedia:WikiProject Role-playing games opposes Robbstrd's reverts. ··gracefool |☺ 23:49, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Technically, the MoS suggests making the title the subject of the first sentence, but says nothing about the exact spot that subject should appear in.
According to the MoS, "In the Dungeons & Dragons role-playing game, subject is..." is most definately correct.
And it seems that the opposition to Robbstrd's version is based directly on a misinterpretation of the MoS. -- Ec5618 00:33, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
According to the MoS, both ways are fine. Robbstrd's version is not more correct. The original way is by far the most popular throughout Wikipedia. If we are going to follow the Wikiproject standard, we should put the title first. ··gracefool |☺ 04:54, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Robbstrd has now pointed to Wikipedia:WikiProject Role-playing games/Style, which was recently added and has not reached consensus - again, not valid a basis for reverts. ··gracefool |☺ 03:27, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps the WikiProject Role-playing games isn't authoritative. But since it suggests this formatting, and since it is not 'wrong', since many articles don't follow convention entirely, and since arguments have been given for starting acticles on fictional worlds in this way, I would suggest you come up with a better reason for reverting. Valid basis for reversion indeed. -- Ec5618 07:08, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia:WikiProject Role-playing games suggests the opposite. ··gracefool |☺ 07:38, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
It was suggested there that we should follow the guidance of the 'guide to writing better articles' and the MoS. Neither of those pages states that the subject of the article should be towards the beginning of the first sentence.
Percy Snoodle had argued in favour of putting the subject near the front of the sentence, based on his assumption that these pages advocated doing so. I'm afraid he was wrong. I'm not sure how you can deduce from the discussion in the style subpage that WikiProject Role-playing games suggest doing so. -- Ec5618 09:39, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm merely quoting Wikipedia:WikiProject Role-playing games (see start of discussion). In any case, this needs to be discussed as a whole at that WikiProject, rather than on separate articles like this. ··gracefool |☺ 12:30, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm still not following. The first post was mine. Other editors agreed with my sentiment, Percy Snoodle disagreed based on a faulty assumption, and then you disagreed. In any case, Wikipedia:WikiProject Role-playing games does not suggest the opposite. -- Ec5618 13:38, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Drow or drow

I came here through random article and added some links. However, I noticed that you have "The creation of the fictional drow..." and "...the Drow are recast...". So which is correct, capital or not? CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 12:36, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

"Drow" should only be capitalized at the beginning of sentences, or when referring to the Drow language. For nearly all other purposes, "drow" should be used. Robbstrd 18:39, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
Oh, and "drow" should also be capitalized when part of a title, such as "Vault of the Drow."Robbstrd 18:43, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of works drow appear in

Would it be possible for this page to include a list of novels in which the drow play a major role? The only ones I know of are the Salvatore's Drizzt books and War of the Spider Queen, as well as Elaine Cunningham's Windwalker trilogy. Are there any others?

That's probably it. ⇒ JarlaxleArtemis 01:45, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Etymology

I wanted to make a much needed correction. Drow may be a Scots word, and not a Gaelic one as there is no "w" in Gaelic. I think a much closer translation might be Dreàgh/Dreàdh if it was Gaelic. This in turn might sound similar to "cow." If anything it is most likely Orkney in origin but it don't believe they use a "w" either. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.16.96.236 (talk • contribs) .

I've seen somewhere that the etymology of "drow" is that it indeed comes from the "drow"/"trow" in Orkney, but that this in turn comes from the Norse "draugr" (a type of undead) and not from "troll". Does anyone know anything more about this? - Gustav. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.255.200.42 (talk) 23:37, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Spelling?

I've seen drow spelled drowe before; does anyone know which is correct? Why are there two different spellings, where did they come from? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.0.32.190 (talk • contribs) .

I've never seen it spelled "drowe" before, at least not in the context of the dark elves. You may have seen a misprint.--Robbstrd 00:41, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
This is definitely not authoritative, but I recall chatting with a guy who took part in a LARP called Labyrinth or something like that. I believe he was referring to the dark elves of that LARP as "drowe". At the time, it struck me as just using fancy spelling to be different, as in "magick", "vampyre", or "Ærth." Self-edit: The LARP was called Labyrinthe. StaffanBaloo 09:52, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Most likely a way to be 'fancy'. Since this is the section on D&D, we should probably go by what the books say. Disinclination 22:02, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dunmer

I removed the passage "The dunmer are the elder scrolls version of the drow" as this is wrong. Appart from being elves and having dark sking, the dunmer share nothing with the Drow.

[edit] Clarification of first appearances ...

The drow, as they appear in fantasy fiction and games, were created by Gary Gygax, and appeared in the 1979 Advanced Dungeons & Dragons module, Hall of the Fire Giant King and They made their first statistical appearance in G3 Hall of the Fire Giant King (later G1-2-3 Against the Giants) (1978) by Gary Gygax.

These two sentences appear to be repeating one another.

They were first mentioned in the Dungeons & Dragons game in the 1st Edition 1977 Advanced Dungeons & Dragons Monster Manual under "Elf." and The first D&D manual that the drow appeared in was the original Fiend Folio.

These two sentences appear to be contradictory. If they appeared in the Monster Manual, then Fiend Folio cannot be their first appearance in a manual. I presume the author intended to say Fiend Folio was the first time they had a fully fleshed out entry, as they were probably not much more than a footnote in the Monster Manual's elf entry. Should this be changed to reflect this?

(147.10.140.186 03:45, 20 August 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Image of Drow

There should be written, that Drows have no beard in Dungeons & Dragons and that they can have beard in Everquest. If it is true. I have draw an image of Drow. But he has got beard and there are conventionalized snakes. Should I upload the image? And for what article? Maybe it is an half-elf or especially half-Drow, because of his dusky grey skin according to information but I have no information about beard. There are no images of such old half-drows or Drows. I have found only one image of half-elf with beard [1]. --Snek01 22:01, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't believe there's an official D&D stance on drow, or even elven, facial hair, so I don't see a need to address it in this article.--Robbstrd 01:37, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
There is. Drow of the Underdark says that roughly 1 in 10 male drow are capable of growing facial hair. --84.66.21.81 (talk) 20:03, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] List of works in which drow play a major role

Could we integrate this section into the reference section?--Robbstrd 19:31, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nonviable?

Just out of curiosity, by what authority can we say that, "Their society, as a whole, is completely nonviable." Skiguy330 23:48, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Read Drow of the Underdark. Essentially, they murder each other so often that they should really have murdered themselves out of existance ages ago. Only the spider queen prevents the drow society collapsing in on itself. --84.66.21.81 (talk) 20:06, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Plot & Poison Guidebook to Drow.jpg

Image:Plot & Poison Guidebook to Drow.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 17:25, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Drow weapons melt in sunlight?

Not in 3rd edition that I have noticed. They merely have daylight blindness in 3.5e and 3e. --84.66.21.81 (talk) 20:07, 12 February 2008 (UTC)