Talk:Driver's license

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[edit] licenses issued to people under 13 who live with people with disabilities?

I think this should be deleted until cited. I couldn't find anything on google remotely resembling this, and I've never heard anything of the sort. Perhaps this happens in very very rural areas, but I've worked in the disability community in many areas of the U.S., and this is the first I've ever heard of something like this. People with disabilities who don't drive generally use paratransit service when available, or get specific Medicaid funds for hiring drivers if in more remote areas. Triangular (talk) 01:41, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Image being used for scam emails!

Should the image of German dl not have 'SAMPLE' across it, I have today recieved an email from a scammer with the exact same image, claiming to be a real person. This is an issue of public safety.82.40.19.146 15:46, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

It DOES have "specimen" ("MUSTER") diagonally across it. If people can't read German, that's their own look-out! -- Arwel (talk) 22:32, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, but it is not clearly noticeable. Also most of these scammers communicate with English speakers. I am editing the image.

[edit] History

What is the history of drivers' licenses? What countries first issued them? Was that in the 1930's or when?

[edit] Transferring a license

There is a lot of interesting (and useful) detail about how to transfer your old license for a new one when you move. Perhaps it's not "encyclopedic", but this article already has a lot of un-encyclopedic detail, and for comparison purposes, it would be useful to have all this information in one place. As an example, if you move to Washington State in the US, you must take a "road test" to get a license, no matter how long you've been driving other places. If you move to New York, you simply need to turn in your old license, but you need to bring your actual Social Security card. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.81.34.199 (talk) 09:03, 13 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Terminology

To clarify the confusion about where it's called what:

Hong Kong: http://www.td.gov.hk/about_us/history_of_transport_department/licensing_services/development_and_changes_of_driving_licences_/hong_kong_driving_licence/index.htm (driving licence)

UK: http://dvla.gov.uk/drivers/drivers.htm (driving licence)

Ireland: http://oasis.gov.ie/transport/motoring/full_driving_licence.html (driving licence)

Singapore: http://www.spf.gov.sg/faq/ndl/ (driving licence)

United States:

http://www.state.nj.us/mvc/press/archives/newddl.htm (driver license)

http://www.mass.gov/rmv/rmvnews/2004/newids.htm (driver's license)

http://www.aot.state.vt.us/DMV/LICENSES/OPERATOR.htm (operator license)

Contrary to what the article said it is not called Driver Licence in California, it's Driver License:

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/

Australia: http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/licensing/downloads/licenclassindex_dl1.html (driver licence)

New Zealand: http://marcel-lancelle.de/private/fw/stf_dl_b.jpg (driver licence)

84.147.134.209 10:46, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Massachusetts

The driving age in Massachusetts is listed as 16 1/2 years old. This is untrue. You may apply for a learners permit at the age of 16 and 1 day. The minimum age to apply for a LICENSE (not a permit) is in fact 16 1/2.

I changed the list of driving ages...Massachusetts is no longer on the state that are not 16 years old.
in massachusetts, there was one age for no driver's education, and a different age for those with driver's education. I do not know if this has changed or not. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.81.34.199 (talk) 08:58, 13 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] history

I know from having been told by my grandad (whos 92) that 'when he was a lad' you went to collect a drivers license because you needed one for your job (ie cars were so expensive that you drove somebody elses - as their chauffeur), or (as happened for him) a superior in the army could "license" you to drive. The general population didn't have or need to have a driving license. Selphie 14:30, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

In many cities (eg. London, Paris) in the nineteenth century cabdrivers had to be licensed, and numbers displayed on the vehicle. This seems to have been ancestral to similar licensing being spread to the population at large. Possibly other drivers, like chauffeurs, coach drivers, or freight drivers were licensed to. Hackney drivers in London were licensed (and made to wear badges) after the model of the Thames Watermen; it was resisted as a stigma. --Squid Faced Tony

It's interesting that when drivers licenses were introduced in Moscow in 1900, the regulations were extremely lax compared with cabrivers. Motorists should only procure neccesary papers and show the physical ability to drive before the authorities, while cabdrivers had to pass rather strict examinations. --Khathi 03:12, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Before motorized vehicles, there was licensing of certain classes of drivers of horsedrawn and waterborne vehicles. This should be in the history.

[edit] New York

The driving age in New York is not 17! It is illegal for people under 18 to drive in New York City unless they are New York State license holders who are 17 and have passed Driver's Education. The driving age in the rest of the state remains 16 years old. 16-17 year olds living in New York City can legally obtain a driver's license, despite the fact that they may not legally drive within New York City, and driving in the rest of the state is allowed for them. This should be corrected.

Corrected with notes about the graduated licensing law. Steve J 23:42, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

This page claims that junior license holders only need to be accompanied by a parent for the first six months of junior licensehood. I can't find that anywhere on DMV's site. I was under the impression you were restricted until you were issued a "senior" license at 18 (or 17 with driver's ed.).

[edit] Europe

Since the EU has more or less standardised their driving licence design and regulation, there should be a column "European Union". See the German Wiki-Entry [1] for example. -217.194.34.124 11:48, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Before there were driver's licenses for automobiles, there were bicycle licenses. Read the first chapter of Franz Kafka "The Prisoner" where Josef K is arrested. The first thing that Josef K does is present his jailers with his Bicycle license and then demand that they provide identification.

In the Wright Brother News at http://quest.arc.nasa.gov/aero/wright/background/timeline/time_1899.html there is a side item regarding the first American woman to obtain a driver's license at Kitty Hawk, NC in 1899. Picture included. submitted to WIKI by Jenny Raabe

"Citizens of EU countries which have no national ID cards also have to carry their passports when traveling in these countries, whether driving or not." Now this is quite unclear, and if taken as stated would actually mean that eg. all Austrians (national ID card exists, but isn't obligatory) are required to carry a passport on them at all times, which is of course ridiculous. An Austrian not owning a national ID card needs a passport only when travelling outside of Austria (in theory even within Shengen borders), but not in Austria, where, if identification is necessary, all kinds of documents with a photograph are sufficient. Took Austria as an example as I live here and normally use my student card as only ID for banking or other commercial purposes, also when confronted (sic) with police, although I do have a passport and EU driving licence. I keep these at home, as I don't drive that often. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.114.21.121 (talk) 11:12, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Driver's License History

Ok, from a few of these posts, I'll see if I can distill a few improvements to this article.


  • 1) Who came up with the concept of requiring a driver's license, when, where?
  • 2) Dates of the presentation of the idea and subsequent implementation, in the respective countries.
  • 3) Evolution of the use of these from simply permission to drive to their current use as a valid form of ID, particularly in the US. Was there any resistance from the general populace?
  • 4) State revocation of licenses for driving violations. Also, can and do states (state in both the US and general sense) revoke licenses for infractions and crimes which have nothing to do with driving? Suspension of licenses is not covered yet.
  • 5) Situations such as old folks driving? What about disqualifications for people of the age to drive who would normally be allowed to? Is there any information on mandatory revocation ages for old folks?
  • 6) Feature creep as regards driver's licenses (True story: I was talking with my friends, outside a local watering hole, after untethering my bike, and a cop demanded my driver's license. When I told him I didn't have it with me (I wouldn't have given it anyway, I'd done nothing wrong), he asked how I would prove who I was. I simply told him he'd have to take my word for it. He wasn't happy, but didn't do anything adverse.
  • 7) The future of driver's licenses in various places.

JD 06:48, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

Okay, I've added info from the NYT archive on the earliest DL laws in North America. Unfortunately, those old articles don't exactly state when the French or Germans came up with their laws and who was first. I guess it'll be up to French- or German-speaking WP users to do that research! --Coolcaesar 20:50, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] PR China

I have heard that in large cities like Beijing and Shanghai there is an execption for foreigner to have the licence changed. They can use an international permit in order to rent a car but it can only be driven within the city limits. Can somebody confirm this? -ThorstenS 10:57, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Driving a privilege or a right?

My understanding is that the driver's license in the US was not always required and driving was a right and not a privilege. This stands up to reason when you consider that the mode of transportation being replaced was the horse, horse driven buggy, or oxen and wagon. None of these required a license or had age restrictions. Driving animals was common place and the motorized vehicle was considered unusual. Before I left my hometown in 1971, there was a law still on the books that required drivers of automobiles to call ahead to the town constable. Ostensibly this was so he could warn the horse owners in the city that a motor vehicle was coming into town.

I would like to know exactly how the concept of licensing drivers came about and became accepted in everyday life.

Why didn't the same thing happen with aircraft and boating licenses?

Doug

Driving is a right not a privilege, at least in the UK it is - although some politicians seem to think the opposite. I've changed the word grant [a licence] to issue. Grant implies it's a privilege. Arcturus 18:25, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
In the United States the operation of a vehicle is treated as a privilege granted by the state that is revocable at any time. For example, California Vehicle Code Section 14607.4 begins as follows: "The Legislature finds and declares all of the following: (a) Driving a motor vehicle on the public streets and highways is a privilege, not a right." Numerous sections of the California Vehicle Code refer to the "privilege of operating a motor vehicle" — just run a Google search. --Coolcaesar 02:27, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
For a country that prides itself on being the beacon of democracy in the world, and yet believes that the state grants privileges to the people, is absolutely amazing. Surely it's the other way round. Still, I obviously can't argue with the facts of US law. In the UK, driving certainly isn't defined as a privilege - so far as I know, but as I alluded to earlier, there are plenty of bumptious politicians and other assorted bureaucrats who consider it so. I think the term issue licence covers all eventualities. Arcturus 12:49, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, although the US law identifies driving as a privilege, now a days it is really treated as a right although, it is a privilege that may still be revoked for reasons. Mac Domhnaill 01:19, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

When I was reading the book on Vehicle Traffic Law (which I added a cite for to the MUTCD article) there was some explanation of this. If I recall correctly, the reason for why it is treated as a privilege is due to some early legal decisions treating gasoline-powered automobiles as a public nuisance because they were noisy and extremely dangerous. Because states have plenary power to ban public nuisances, the courts reasoned that they could also ban automobiles if they wished. In turn, automobiles are allowed to operate on the roads only at the pleasure of the state. That's how we got from the original concept of the right of driving a wagon or stagecoach or riding a horse, etc. to the modern idea of the privilege of operating a motor vehicle. I forgot to write down the page numbers for that section, though. --Coolcaesar 19:41, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Driving a car on your own property is a right, hence the reason that a driver's license is not required to drive on your own land (though allowing a small child to do so would probably be considered endangerment). Driving on public roads is generally legally considered a privilege, which is why you need a license (that can be revoked). --SodiumBenzoate 09:15, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Languages

Is it really necessary to have the Chinese and Japanese translations of "driver's license" on the page. The only reason the first paragraph contains all the different variations is because licenses are termed differently in different English-speaking countries. Perhaps it should be confined to the different English words for license on the English page. After all, it isn't as though driver's licenses are inherently Chinese or Japanese.

[edit] US-drivers licence

I have seen an older US-drivers licence (North Carolina) - the back side was machine readabel. is this true for all US-states. Wahat informations are coded? A picture of a back-side of an us-licence would be nice--84.137.12.100 17:10, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

There is a magnetic strip on the back of most licenses (for example, California). I vaguely recall that it may carry in a simple digital format the same textual information printed on the front of the card. I'm not sure, though. Anyone know more about this? --Coolcaesar 01:08, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

My Texas issued drivers license also has a magnetic strip as does my friends from Ohio. Mrrightguy10 06:14, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Computers being social tools as opposed to cars???

Some of the reasons for decline that are listed in this article are downright absurd and show a deep lack of understanding of teenagers today. There is no way that someone would have higher social status for owning a computer rather than a car. It's also absurd to say that teenagers find that it's "more convenient" to have their parents drive them, and several points on the list are things that have remained the same for the past fifty years (ex. busy lives with atheletics and extra curricular activities). This needs to be fixed. --Berserk798 18:23, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree. The entire list reeks of "original research" or "personal viewpoint" and should be deleted unless and until whomever contributed it can come back with supporting citations. --Coolcaesar 23:57, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
I was the person (under an unlogged-in name) who began the list of reasons. Many of them are found in that LA Times article mentioned. However, others have added to them. I fixed the two reasons declared "absurd" by Berserk798. I changed what was likely a misunderstanding of what the reason meant. -BrianClass07 16:56, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] PSV

The article says PSV stands for "Passenger Service Vehicle", isn't it supposed to be "Public Service Vehicle"? The information about PSV licences in the UK appears accurate.

[edit] NPOV

I saw this in the US section: "and more recently, the so called war on terror." Isn't that POV? I can't figure out what exactly to change it to though. --Mosquitopsu 20:21, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] needs cleaned up

This article needs some moderate cleaning up, as well as the expulsion of certain, ahhhh shall we say "author commentary" contained therein (ie there are a few opinion pieces)

I concur. This article is a MESS! Unfortunately, I'm not a transportation lawyer, so I don't know where to begin cleaning it up. --Coolcaesar 03:28, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Suez, and the queen

Footnote 5 points to a DVLA press release giving various facts about the history of licensing in the UK. One of these is that driving tests were suspended during the Suez Crisis. Why was this done? Can anyone add this information? Another fact, given in the paragraph but not appearing in the source, is that the queen doesn't require a driving licence. This is plausible, as she doesn't require a passport since they are issued in her name, but still, it needs a source. The footnoting as it stands is misleading, as the page linked to says nothing about the queen. 86.136.94.95 02:07, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Major article restructure

I have performed a significant restructure/shift-around of this article in an attempt to improve its quality and coherence. It made sense to me to shift the history section from the bottom of the article to the top, and also place generic sections (like organ donation and its use as identification) up the top, before launching into specifics about driver's licenses in different countries. I also rearranged the country specifics section to alphabetical order, because previously there seemed to be no order to it whatsoever (perhaps the order in which people added them to the article?). I have also split Canada off from the United States and given it its own section, because most of the joint section consisted of paragraphs starting with "In the U.S.", indicating there isn't too much similarity between the two countries' systems.

There may be residual repetition in the article, and also instances of over-linking (or not linking the first instance of a word, but linking a later instance). Please do clean these up if you see them.

Finally, the "Australia" section is quite incoherent and hodge-bodge. It is NSW-centric and needs to be fixed. I might get around to it another late night. - Mark 15:50, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Word Choice Issue

I have a pretty big issue with some lines of text in this article tipified by this example from the third to last paragraph on 'Australia': "...or the more grammatically correct "Driving Licence"

In what way is the term "Driving Licence" more grammatically correct than any other? What does grammaticality have to do with anything at all here? Compound noun conventions may have a grammatical tendency, but there isn't a strict grammatical structure, only convention. As a linguist, I see this point as non-factual and sorely opinionated. --Alex DG 15:53, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

The Australia section is pretty poor and incoherent overall. I plan to overhaul it within the next week. - Mark 05:39, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Removed "grammatically correct". Tocharianne 16:13, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] International considerations

"although European Union drivers who move from one EU state to another can continue driving on their original licences until the age of 70.". This is not correct. If you move from one EU country to another (and also EEA countries like Norway and Switzerland) you have to exchange your old licence for a new one. You do not have to take another test, your old licence is accepted in lieue of a test and is sent back to the issuing country to be cancelled.

Citation: get a copy of the British driving licence application form from a Post Office. It now contains a section for exchanging a EU/EEA licence for a British one. TiffaF 06:52, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

This is incorrect. You may exchange another EU/EEA licence for a British one if you want to but this is not compulsory. See "Driving in Great Britain (GB) on a licence issued in a European Community/European Economic Area (EC/EEA) country" (my emphasis):

European Community and European Economic Area Licences issued in the European Community and European Economic Area make up two groups that are treated equally. The full list is: Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Republic of Cyprus, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Romania, Portugal, Slovenia, Slovakia, Spain, Sweden, United Kingdom.
Visitors
If you hold a valid community licence and are visiting GB, you can drive any vehicle if your licence is valid. The appropriate full entitlement for the vehicle you wish to drive must be shown on your licence.
Residents
If you have a valid community licence, this will authorise you to drive in GB for the period set out below. Alternatively, you can exchange your licence for a British one at any time.
Provided your licence remains valid you may drive in GB:
Car, motorcycle driving licence holders (ordinary driving licence):
* until aged 70 or for three years after becoming resident, whichever is the longer period
Lorry, minibus, bus driving licence holders (vocational driving licence):
* until aged 45 or for five years after becoming resident, whichever is the longer period
* if you are aged over 45 (but under 65) until your 66th birthday or for five years after becoming resident, whichever is the shorter period
* if you are aged 65 or over for 12 months after becoming resident
In order to continue driving after these periods, you must get a British driving licence.

-- Arwel (talk) 22:46, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cleaving the Article and Driver's Licence scans

I was wondering if it were possible to create a catalogue of driver's licences from different states. Is this legal? I could certainly understand the illegality of such a database, but I would be interested to see what the ID's of different states look like.

Also, we should consider cleaving this article by country, keeping the main article as a link to multiple daughter articles. Anyone object? --Reid 21:13, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ages in one country and the next..

I'm a British Citizen, say I had (hypothetically) a drivers license and I was 17 would it be illegal for me to drive in Germany (who's driving age is 18), even if I was fully insured? 62.136.225.242 21:01, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the driving laws of the country you are in apply, including the minimum driving age. If this were not so, and you were covered by British law in Germany, you could legally drive on the left in Germany :-). And you wouldn't be insured, because insurance is usually invalid if you don't hold a valid driving licence (which a 17-year-old can't in Germany).
The same applies to a 16-year-old US resident with a US driving licence, they can't legally drive in the UK.
Also, you get a licence from your country of residence, not citizenship. You can only get a British licence if you live in the UK, regardless of whether you are a British citizen or not. TiffaF 06:07, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Zacharias Moussaoui

Do we really need his drivers license on here?

[edit] Maine license requirements

Maine: 15 years and a certificate of completion from a licensed driving school to obtain a learner's permit. 16 years or 6 months following the issue date of the permit to obtain a driver's license.

I'm quite sure to obtain a license, you must be at least 16 years of age. so the 'or' should be changed, as it makes it look as if you can be 15 1/2 and get a license, which is not true. --MunchableSandwich 20:50, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Change title to Driving Licence/License?

More nations use the 'Driving' Prefix for their licences and I think this should be the prefix as the title. My opinion is that the articles on Wikipedia are becoming more and more Americanised even when more people in different countries refer to it as a different thing. 172.206.53.14 14:51, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

There really isn't a factual basis, one way or another, for saying that it's better to use one version of modern English over another. My personal opinion is that since Wikipedia is hosted on servers in America, and was founded by Americans, and since American is the world's best country, it should be American English. But the differences between American/Canadian and British/Australian are so small...it's just a letter here and there...that I don't think it really matters. It's not like it puts some sort of limit on the type or amount of information that the article can convey -- so it's really just a petty thing. Also, refer to WP:ENGVAR; a driver's license doesn't fall under the category of a topic with strong ties to a given country. They're used worldwide. Piercetheorganist 15:01, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
One or the other with redirects, not both. That page name suggested just looks unwieldy. Catwhoorg 15:05, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Also, I should that America has more native English language speakers who are also drivers. --Coolcaesar 17:10, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Motorbiking license

Is it safe to redirect that to here? Motorbikes are mentioned in the article, but I'm asking because I'm not sure if this article is about motorbiking license. TheBlazikenMaster 22:54, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it is. The motorbike licenses are some of the license categories discussed in this article. --MPorciusCato 10:59, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wording issue (a petty one)

The very beginning of this article lists "driver's license" as the U.S. version of this item. I have no doubt this is the most common usage—I've heard it everywhere here—but my Texas license refers to itself as "driver license". The sample license on this page from North Carolina refers to it by the same name. How about the majority of states? If most refer to it that way, perhaps some part of the intro should make a distinction between the common name and the officially-used one? -BaronGrackle (talk) 23:30, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Wow---that's really cool you noticed that. I just checked out the Web sites for the CA DMV, the NY DMV, and the IL Sec. of State. It turns out that CA and NY both use "driver license" but Illinois uses "driver's license". Amazing. Then I went to look in my wallet.
I've lived in California my whole life and I never noticed that the official DMV documents as well as the card itself actually use the term "Driver License" instead of "Driver's License." You have a really good point. We may need to edit the lead to reflect that although the most common colloquial usage is "driver's license," the most common legal usage is "driver license." --Coolcaesar (talk) 07:45, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vermont

I was looking at this list, and realized that Vermont is not on there. I don't know enough about editing to put the information in there, so here it is if someone else wants to put it in there. learner's permit-age 15, junior operator's license-age 16, operator's license-age 18 (I'm pretty sure about that last one, though it could be 21)junior operators are on a graduated driving level- this means that after three months they can drive siblings and after six they can drive anybody, unless there is an unimpaired adult (age is somewhere from 21-25 i think) in the passenger seat. You need to take driver's ed to get your license, unless you are 18, at which point you can go and take the test. If anyone feels like putting some of this info in the table, it would be greatly appreciated.68.142.38.107 (talk) 23:48, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] South Australia

I have corrected the section on South Australia to reflect the spelling and usage conventions of that state. This includes licence and licences (noun), license and licensed (verb). I have also changed Driver Licence to Driver's Licence as this is the official and common usage. Citations for this have been added. I have no doubt that similar conventions exist in the other Australian states. Ozdaren (talk) 08:01, 26 January 2008 (UTC)