Talk:Dreamachine

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To-do list for Dreamachine: edit · history · watch · refresh
  • Expand history, discuss influence of Islamic art on initial design
  • Describe different types of Dreamachines, from the past to the present
  • Create new section, "How to make a Dreamachine"
    • Upload print-quality image that people can use to create a paper cylinder
    • Sommerville's flicker machine
    • Portable flicker machines (air-propelled viewmaster type)
  • Discuss efficacy - does it work?
  • List patent number for dreamachine patent

purge cache
Please help improve this article or section by expanding it.
Further information might be found on the talk page or at requests for expansion. (March 2007)

Contents

[edit] Gysin/Sommerville

I don't think Brion Gysin was either Canadian or Muslim and I haven't seen any evidence that Ian Sommerville was a mathematician, so I've removed those adjectives from the first sentence... they might well be vandalism. Nick 12:00, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Nick, thanks for your efforts in trying to verify the information on the page. However, I don't think the original author was vandalizing the article. According to biographical information on the net, Gysin was "English by birth and Canadian by upbringing". His Swiss father migrated to Edmonton, Alberta. Gysin appears to have gone back and forth between the States and Canada, although he finished public school in Alberta and lived there until he was 15. Gysin spent some time in Tangier, Morocco, and was heavily influenced by the Islamic culture there. The Dreamachine is based upon an Islamic design, and his recordings of Sufi trance music and his cut-up poems are as well. I'm going to try and collect some more information when I have time. Most of the information on the net states that Ian Sommerville was a mathematician, and I wonder if this is the same person that is currently a professor in computer science, possibly in the U.K. --Viriditas | Talk 07:00, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Wow! Sorry, it looks like I was catastrophically wrong... check out [1] for Gysin - confirms the Canadian reference ("school in Canada"). For Sommerville you're right, the majority of websites refer to him as a Mathematician, I can't find anything solid though. I'm sure you're right that the group were influenced by Islamic culture in Tangier but I wonder if we can say that the Dreamachine was actually based on an Islamic design? In any case, sorry for deleting based on my recollections of Burroughs rather than checking first... Nick 09:53, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Aloha. Upon further examination, it appears to be true that Gysin was not a muslim. In an interview, he states: never was much immersed truly into Islam, or I would've become a Moslem, and probably still be there...uh, it was most particularly the music that interested me. [2]. I'm still looking for information on Sommerville. Gysin (and many others) refer to Sommerville's computer program, so I am fairly certain this is him. Gysin's dreamachine design incorporated sufic geometry, so claiming it is based on an Islamic design is accurate. There was an extensive web page that outlined the history of the dreamachine along with photos of the geometry in question, but the site has completely disappeared. I suspect there was some kind of copyright violation. --Viriditas | Talk 09:52, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Hello. Ian Sommerville died about 20(?) years ago. I got this info via a friend that got it via another person... so i haven't any details. The informations you can find on the web are about another person with the same name. When i'll get something more precise, i'll post here. -- a. 217.11.33.254
Aloha. Thanks for your comment, but unfortunately, FOAF data doesn't hold much weight here.  :-( If you can find any type of source for this claim (either online or off) please let us know. Thanks in advance for trying to research this topic. Your help is certainly appreciated. --Viriditas | Talk 07:21, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
re-hello. found this interview to a.mckenzie, where he says that sommerville died in a car accident... http://www.brainwashed.com/h3o/option.html // the discussion is not really centered on sommerville, and the fact comes out as a detail... maybe from here we can find more? hope so. -- a. 19:01, 30 Mar 2005 GMT+2
Thanks for the link. I am trying to confirm the veracity of this information. --Viriditas | Talk 11:38, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Since I couldn't confirm anything, is it safe to assume he's dead? --Viriditas 13:12, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
john geiger states (in chapel of extreme experience, page 90) "in 1976, ian sommerville was fatally injured in a moto vehicle accident near bath, england, at age thirty-six"
Thanks, that gives me something to go on. Sorry to hear about Ian, though. --Viriditas 11:09, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Photos

Hi, Just added a photo at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Dreamachine1.jpg with sime comments and links. More dreamachine photos on line at : http://www.inter-zone.org/catal1.html http://www.inter-zone.org/dm.html http://www.interpc.fr/mapage/westernlands/ http://www.inter-zone.org/dmclass.html

Isabelle Baudron-Aubert baudron@interpc.fr

Oh, um, hey, I'm not too good at this sort of thing, but I put a picture on Commons, http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Scan0023.jpg, and I don't know how to put it with the other dream machine pictures. I was hoping someone with perhaps more, er, prowess could help me out. 'Ppreciate it.

[edit] But does it work?

The article mentions that it 'claims' to induce lucid dreaming but doesn't really mention whether people actually find success with it or not. Some more information here would be nice -Averisk 11:05, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. I've added it to the task list. --Viriditas 13:11, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
are you asking if the dreamachine 'works' (= does 'something') or do you want to know specifically if the dreamachine can 'induce lucid dreaming' ? effects of flicker have been scientifically studied and documented: there are many writings about (grey walters for example - also quoted by john geiger, whose book 'chapel of extreme experience' is easily available). --7Hz, 5 January 2006
I was just curious what the actual documented effects of it were, whether that be lucid dreaming, relaxation, or whatever. I don't really care what the makers claim that it does. It sounds like you know a thing or two about that, maybe you could add something... Anyway, just a suggestion. Averisk 19:22, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
well, what i know about the effects is because i'm a dreamachine user - if you are not affected with epilepsy i suggest you to try. it's the best way to understand what it can do. otherwise if you are looking for 'scientifical' accounts (eg. about psychophysical effects), the reports i was referring to are actually research documents/reports g. walters made while studiyng the effects of flicker (he did use a stroboscopic device with flashing lightbulbs). this was prior to gysin's 'invention'...his book (grey walters) 'the living brain' is no longer printed but should be available used, even via amazon. HTH. --7Hz, 11 January 2006
Are there any lingering affects afterwards? The article says the effects stop after you open your eyes; is there any lag? --24.252.147.48 03:11, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

To reply I have to say, no it does not work. You will not feel anything special, may feel dizzy or nauseous, but you will not go into a state of lucid dreaming. You will not feel like you have taken drugs unless you take drugs at the same time. If anything using a Dreamachine is extremely boring, but you can’t fall asleep due to the brightness of the light. Notice that no where is your money given back if the Dreamachine fails to work as the hype to sell it. Let the buyer beware. Maybe one would wish to buy it for a conversation piece?--Robert551 18:50, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

hello. please note: the dreamachine effect has nothing to do with feeling like you have taken drugs. and if you don't feel anything, well no one states it will work for everyone. personally i find the experience very pleasant and not boring at all. it is not the same thing as dreaming, but i have impressive visions and physical sensations. as for the comment about money given back, where did you buy your dreamachine, and what happened? why didn't you build it yourself? --7Hz 7 july 2006 (sorry i couldn't log-in...)

I did not buy one. I am just pointing out, that if it does not work, you can not get your money back. --Robert551 15:21, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

how can you say it doesn't work? and "you can't get your money back" from who? --7Hz 11 july 2006

I tried it, it doesn’t work, and if you buy one, you can’t get your money back. I can’t say who that would be a commerical. A strobe light would work better.--Robert551 16:52, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

yes a strobe light flashing at the proper frequency will do it. has a strobe light worked for you? have you tried the dreamachine with a lightbulb stronger than 60watts? do you have a 78rpm or 45rpm dreamachine, and with how many holes in each row? --7Hz 14 july 2006

It does not matter about the spacing of the holes, it won’t work. There are free plans you can download right from the web. I once had some notes from a class on why a strobe light works, but I can’t find that information on line, and I no longer have the notes. I believe either the light itself from a light bulb is wrong, or the timing is wrong or both.--Robert551 04:28, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

i was not referring to the spacing of the holes, but about how many holes in a row. anyway. i don't see how a lightbulb differs from a strobe - a strobe can be made with a flickering lightbulb. a "strobe" will produce the "dreamachine effect" if it pulses at a frequency below 30 Hertz (cicles per second). Grey Walter wrote about this in 1946. there are many papers on brainwaves, the EEG, FFR, a good number available on the internet. you keep saying it doesn't work, maybe you should add for me.

I tried the online version in this article and I felt a bit of how I feel when I'm entering a lucid dream. What some people describe as nausea is actually the loss of the sense of your body. When you are asleep you do not feel your body, and thus you feel as if you are floating. This floating sensation gives way to a spinning feeling, what I like to think of as a paranoia, "if you cannot feel yourself how do you know you are not spinning?!" is a nice way to explain it. So you ask, "does it work"? my answer is "it can." Just have to be open-minded and know what is going on in your head somewhat. --Rewen 09:28, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Portable flicker machines

could someone please explain what are these? are you referring to so-called 'brainmachines' (these glasses with flickering LEDs). and also what means 'air-propelled viewmaster type' ? thank you. --7Hz, 11 January 2006

Hi. I was not describing a "brainmachine", however they may fit into this category. The portable flicker machine that I was referring to is similar to the View-Master system: you hold the device up to your eyes in broad daylight, using the sun as a light source. There's a hole where you blow air into the device, which spins a flicker disk over your closed eyelids. —Viriditas | Talk 14:33, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edits by Riefenstahl / 84.191.xxx.xxx

Reverting to a version from 19 September 2005 is not helpful. Please do not do that. Discuss any changes here, please. —Viriditas | Talk 01:50, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] frequency

I've read a lot about the dream machine, but have seen different info about at what frequency the flashing will create the desired effect. Most sources seem to say about 20 flashes per second (different from this article). Sources usually claim that this stmulates or matches "your brain waves." But WHICH brain waves? The conclusions are wildly different. I would love to see some more precise info.Flange P. Vibrator 21:33, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

You may want to check The Third Mind by Gysin and Burroughs. (I do not have my copy at hand, though). In an interview with Gysin, he talks about Burroughs giving him Grey Walter's book The Living Brain after the famous "bus episode". In that book, Walter (a neurologist) talks about the Alpha Waves frequency band, situated more or less between 7 to 13 pulses per second (or Hertz). Walter was a pioneer in electroencephalograpy, and in his experiments he tested stroboscopic light, flashing at different frequecies in front of various subjects (testers) with their eyes closed. He noticed that the external stimulus (the flicker) affected the electrical activity of the brain, making it shift towards the frequency of the flashes. If i understand, this is what is called "frequency-followwing response" and/or "evoked potential". Walters also noticed that the brain produces vivid and bright images, patters, forms etc when its electrical frequency is situated around 7-13 Hertz. Gysin read that on The Living Brain and managed with Ian Sommerville to build a setup that may create the same effect. Alpha waves have been discovered by Hans Berger. The article at [3], says alpha waves are "electromagnetic oscillations", but it is not correct, because the signals recorded with an EEG machine are just electrical potentials and measured in Volts.
Here are some sources and links:
the "bus episode":
"Had a transcendental storm of colour visions today in the bus going to Marseilles. We ran though a long avenue of trees and I close my eyes against the setting sun. An overwhelming flood of intensely bright colours exploded behind my eyelids: a multi-dimensional kaleidoscope whirling out through space. I was swept out of time. I was out in a world of infinite number. The vision stopped abruptly as we left the trees. Was that a vision? What happened to me?" -extract from the diary of Brion Gysin 21/12/1958 - from "dreamachine plans - created by brion gysin", temple press
"Brain waves, minute electrical oscillations associated with brain activity, can be measured accurately and graphically by the electroencephalograph (EEG) machine. EEG records show that brain rhythms divide into two groups according to frequency. One of these groups, the alpha or scanning rhythms, is strongest when the brain is unoccupied, searching for a pattern, and weakest during purposeful thinking, eyes open studying a pattern. The strength type of rhythms vary between individuals. The EEG records of some primitive peoples are similar to those of a ten year old in our society. Variations occur with age. The alpha rhythms do not appear in children until they are about four years old." - Ian Sommerville, 'Flicker' - from "dreamachine plans - created by brion gysin", temple press
  • [4] - Grey Walter's biography
  • [5] - about electroencephalography and frequencies
  • RE/Search #4/5, (RE/Search Publications)
  • Dreamachine plans - created by Brion Gysin, (temple press)
  • Gysin & Burroughs, The Third Mind
Elamita 00:35, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vendors

Sites that sell these also offer a lot of other devices with extraordinary claims, such as a "Wishing Machine." Maybe the purpose is to put more hope in a different device if just buying the Dreamachine doesn't work.

[edit] Patent

According to Flickers of the Dreamachine, Gysin received the patent number PV86828 on July 18, 1961. According to this webpage, the patent number is P.V.868,281. I searched both numbers on http://www.uspto.gov/, but none of these two numbers seems to be correct. Elamita

[edit] "authorized" seller(s)

someone wrote on the to-do list that mr. woodard is the "sole Burroughs authorized Dreamachine" maker... to my modest knowledge, this is untrue. i do not want to minimize mr. woodard activity, just say i think there is no such thing as an "authorized" dreamachine maker: 1, the dreamachine has been patented by Gysin around 1961. the patent number is cited in two published books, but i've been unable to find them on the US patents website (see section above). it is unclear at least for me, if this patent is still valid. 2, around 1974 gysin sold(or gave?) his plans to art dealer carl laszlo to commercialize the dreamachine, but laszlo built only 20 of them for some art galleries. this is stated for example in a gysin biography by ramuncho matta, a close gysin late-collaborator. 3, around 1984 gysin collaborated with genesis p-orridge and andrew mckenzie to the first commercially available dreamachine. as both artists (p-orridge & mckenzie) are still active, someone should contact them to investigate further. 3, french-based artists étant-donnés have stated in some interviews that gysin gave them personally a copy of his plans and considered them as sort-of "heirs". again, they should be contacted and asked for details. my two cents. Elamita 14:18, 18 April 2007 (UTC)


hello. later this year, a definitive edition/re-release of "the hafler trio and thee temple ov psychick youth present brion gysin's dreamachine", complete with plastic dreamachine to the precise specifications approved by Gysin before his death and DVD of archive footage and documentary, will be published by Soleilmoon. many of the questions raised here will hopefully be answered there. it would be nice if you could provide in your references some mention that we originally released a dreammachine kit, book, LP and CD on KK Records, Belgium, in 1989, as well as a video. there was also a performance that was the world's first exposition of the dreamachine with sound material designed to give similar effects as with the visual. here are some links: http://www.brainwashed.com/h3o/dreamachine/ and http://www.brainwashed.com/h3o/dream.html. many of the questions posed here on this page are answered in those links and the links they in turn lead to. regards, --andrew m.mckenzie 213.35.235.249 20:09, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] External link deleted

I have deleted the link Comprehensive Dreamachine overview due to the number of people complaining about sending money and never receiving any dreamachine in return. The author of the site justifies his behaviour pretending that the mail fees are too expensive. In his page in You Tube [6] he writes that one of his hobbies consists in "stealing people", and presents himself as a supporter of nazi ideology, confirming the article in San Francisco Chronicle at [7] The man does not seem very sane and definitely is not a person to relate to. Clem Snide 17:39, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

(fixed your broken URL) Wow. Check out Nueva Germania. We should probably update this article to include that information. —Viriditas | Talk 07:52, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gareth Spor

It appears Gareth Spor has added information about himseld and his "updated" Dreamachine to this page. I suggest his contribution to be deleted, as it is more advertisement for Gareth than information contributing to the subject. Opinions? --Qmwpeto (talk) 09:37, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I removed it pending WP:RS. Viriditas (talk) 10:49, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Thanks. I just deleted the picture of his machine as well from the "Images" section - not relevant without the text. --Qmwpeto (talk) 13:06, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
FWIW, I don't have a problem with the image if it is appropriately licensed. Viriditas (talk) 19:29, 22 April 2008 (UTC)