Talk:Drawing

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Contents

[edit] Definitions

This encyclopedia article on drawing ignores the practice of entopic graphomania (in which dots are made at the sites of impurities or shifts in colour in a blank sheet of paper), in which the "subject" of the drawing is neither what is seen before the eyes nor what is in the imagination but what is in the actual drawing surface itself. --Daniel C. Boyer

Should include something about automatic drawing. --Daniel C. Boyer

Resolved both problems. --Daniel C. Boyer

There is a question about how or whether to deal with the question of movement of liquid down a vertical surface (when done in ink) in this article. --Daniel C. Boyer

The definition of painting is given in painting. If it is repeated here, how do we keep track of changes or change it automatically? Also I agree with Boyer about the restrictive definitions given here. They set distinctions that ignore many techniques. For example, saying that drawing does not allow pre-mixing of colour is restrictive as it is quite easy to mix colours and draw with the mix. This could also imply that Seurat was making drawings and not paintings. So the definitions for painting and drawing have to be consistent. They could also be the same, coudn't they? Drawing and painting are both the application of colour to a surface, generally. Examples might let the reader decide his/her own interpretation for fringe cases. The Da Vinci drawing on that pas is clearly a drawing. But for example, many painters will start a painting by making a "drawing" of the subject. When does it stop being a "drawing"? I have changed the definition of painting to make it more general. I will wait and see if the modified definition holds and then try to refine the definition here.Rawbear 10:39, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Again, the definition is repeated in the Media section: "The medium is the means by which ink, pigment, or color are delivered onto the drawing surface". Also, why specify that ink and pigment can be delivered? It is all about the application (or delivery) of colour to a surface. Then, this is that same as painting...

Presently, Drawing is defined as a "method". I don't see that. Drawing can be a verb (to draw) or a noun (a drawing). How is it a "method"? Furthermore, last night I made a very radical edit of the article, making the point that to draw means to deliniate a shape. This is an important concept, but I don't see it mentioned in the article. I'm new to Wikipedia editing processes, so I'll sit back and see if my comments get feedback.

I saw the change to "deliniate a shape". This might be a restrictive definition: you can fill a shape with colour without ever defining the edge. On the other hand, although everyone has a pretty good idea of what a drawing is, keeping only one definition might be the restrictive option. Hence, your change is valid, but I'm thinking of adding to it. I am beginning to see drawing the same way I see painting: the application of colour to a surface (including black, as in graphite and ink, of course). Only the tools change. Rawbear 13:22, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

The edit to suggest that a drawing delineates a figure is far too narrow and prescriptive. Drawings are not only made with lines; drawings do not only record figures. Drawing (verb) is the act of making marks on a surface which creates a visual image of a form or a shape which is called a drawing (noun). I am changing the introduction to agree with people above who have also identified that this article fail to make distinction between the noun and verb use of "drawing". Cosmopolitancats 10:41, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Would a link to the website [1] be relevant? Kaydrawing 17:50, 12 September 2007 (UTC) September 2007

[edit] Drawing techniques

A section on drawing techniques has been included and some reorganization performed. However there is much more that can be added and improved in that part, espectially in the artistry section (such as on the topic of composition). — RJH 15:18, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I would suggest that the topic of composition is substantial enough to require an article in its own right - as indeed it already has. A link to composition (visual arts) would be appropriate - although that topic could do with more work. Cosmopolitancats 10:44, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Improvement drive

Graphics is currently nominated to be improved by WP:IDRIVE. Vote for it if you want to contribute.--Fenice 20:10, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Removed Kurt Vonnegut from the list of notable artists. Too early to say anything about that, to say the least. Too contrast, perhaps some more emphasis on less "academic", more free, less focussed on technical details, forms of drawing may be required.

Can you please identify yourself when you make a change.

I disagree about less emphasis on the academic. I do agree that it should include more reference to contemporary developments. This whole article lacks adequate coverage of drawing as an important form of visual expression in art history and identification of different forms of drawings and approaches to drawing - over and above the pure techniques for making marks on paper.

An article on drawing techniques might be required which links to this page.

See below - I've referred this article for review. Cosmopolitancats 12:02, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] External links

I rather ill-advisedly tinkered with the external links and whilst I got shot of some that definitely added nothing, I'm not sure the ones I added are so great either: they'd be happier on the articles of the artists themselves probably. I think the article would be improved if all the current externals went...--bodnotbod 21:17, 15 October 2005 (UTC)


[edit] GA Re-Review and In-line citations

Members of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles are in the process of doing a re-review of current Good Article listings to ensure compliance with the standards of the Good Article Criteria. (Discussion of the changes and re-review can be found here). A significant change to the GA criteria is the mandatory use of some sort of in-line citation (In accordance to WP:CITE) to be used in order for an article to pass the verification and reference criteria. Currently this article does not include in-line citations. It is recommended that the article's editors take a look at the inclusion of in-line citations as well as how the article stacks up against the rest of the Good Article criteria. GA reviewers will give you at least a week's time from the date of this notice to work on the in-line citations before doing a full re-review and deciding if the article still merits being considered a Good Article or would need to be de-listed. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact us on the Good Article project talk page or you may contact me personally. On behalf of the Good Articles Project, I want to thank you for all the time and effort that you have put into working on this article and improving the overall quality of the Wikipedia project.

______

The current article focuses on some aspects drawing process but in my opinion clearly does not meet the criteria to be listed as a good article. This is a very large topic which is inadequately covered at present.

  • its focus is far too narrow eg
    • no reference to the history of drawing, the changes in the importance of drawing over time and
    • no reference to the different types of drawing and different approaches to drawing (over and above techniques for mark-making)
    • no commentary on draftsmen (but maybe this should be a different article which should then be linked here)
    • no reference to drawing societies
    • no reference to important academic sources re drawing
    • no reference to important collections of drawings
    • no reference to contemporary developments
  • Failure to cite important references and quite a lot of opinion being expressed
  • it fails to make links to all other relevant parts of wikipedia

Some thought needs to be given to how information can be organised and what might be more appropriately contained in a related article (eg drawing techniques). I'll come back and keep working on this but would appreciate more input from people with a good knowledge of drawing from a fine art/history of art perspective.

I've put this article up for review to address the issues identified above. Cosmopolitancats 11:17, 9 December 2006 (UTC) _____

  • Good feedback. Thank you. — RJH (talk) 17:33, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Links to other parts of Wikipedia

I've included links to Sketch (visual drawing) and sketchbook in the reference section. the latter now includes links to online versions on the sketchbooks of famous artists Cosmopolitancats 11:54, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

On further investigation it would appear that most people, like me, are not aware that there is

  • a Drawing Category
  • a number of sub-drawing categories
  • a large number of individual pages devoted to drawing topics

As a structure for this broad topic area has already been established I therefore propose to review the existing article and move quite a lot of existing text to more specialist pages as I believe it has been inserted here in ignorance of what exists elsewhere already. I will first establish a plan for movement of text and proceed with this if there are no other comments.

I have made a start by inserting a link to the Category where ther sub-categories and drawing pages are listed at the top of this artcile.

Please do not add any more text to this page without first consulting the Drawing Category / sub-categories and all other Drawing pages Cosmopolitancats 06:37, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Subject

I'm afraid the assertion that most drawings are representational demonstrates an ignorance of developments in contemporary drawings and of the practice of some artists in the past. This section needs to be revised and I'll have a go on my next visit Cosmopolitancats 21:40, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Computer software

A couple of online drawing communities have been added to the computer software section without any discussion on this page. first they should not appear in this section - they are not software. Second if an article on drawing communities is required to support this main article it needs to be drafted. Third - the request not to add any more text until we've thought about how best to restructure this page was ignored.

I propose to delete the online drawing communities on my next visit - but retain a note of them on this page - until a new article is proposed and drafted unless there are any dissenting voices. If you don't agree can you suggest what would be a more appropriate treatment bearing in mind there are a lot more online drawing communities than the ones listed.Cosmopolitancats 01:29, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The computer drawing option

Last sentence in Materials section reads "A new tool for drawing is the computer's 'drawing option'." Sounds like the result of mistranslation or unfamiliarity with computer technology. Suggest removal or expansion/clarification. 71.195.58.112 07:58, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recent edits

Recent edits, all coming from IPs in the same area, have introduced trivia, non-notable references to a gallery and brand of pen, and non-encyclopedic links (blogs, porn site). I have twice reverted the information which I believe compromised the encyclopedic content, explained so in my edit summaries, and twice been reverted by said IPs--multiple IPs can operate in unison w/o breaking the 3 revert rule. JNW 18:37, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Agreed - admins please watch! Johnbod 18:45, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Tags have been placed re: external links and poor and irrelevant examples. A review of IP edits from October 13 and 14 reveal the edits of concern. JNW 04:07, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Definition: drawing vs. painting

I have a problem with this paragraph:

Drawing is distinct from painting. The techniques of "drawing" and "painting" can be confused, because similar tools can perform both tasks; the operations are distinct in that painting involves the application of pigments, usually by means of a brush, onto cloth or prepared surfaces, whereas drawing is generally concerned with the marking of lines onto paper.

I believe that over-emphasizes differences in the support material. It's just as easy to find someone drawing on canvas as painting on paper.

Not sure how to define this better. Some differences suggest themselves, such as between line vs mass, monochrome (or very limited palette) vs color, "traditional" drawing media vs, well, paint, and so forth. I don't want to just jump in and rewrite the thing without a whole lot better idea of it... comments? __Just plain Bill 07:37, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

One of those instances where the more you try to define the differences, the more exceptions come to mind; I wonder if the distinctions made in the paragraph, while generally true, are even necessary. Line and mass are both properties of drawing; monochrom(ism?) is a more appropriate, but inadequate, description. I will look at this when I have more time. Passages that can still be trimmed are those on 'police sketch artists' and 'incredible nib' pens--of little or no relevance here. Good work! JNW 12:58, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
I think the fluid nature of paint, and use of brushes, vs the solid nature of the pigments in drawing (unless in ink), has to be the distinction. Gouache is in the middle, but on the drawing side I think. Of course many Western drawings are worked over with wash, using a brush; similar Chinese works would be described as brush-paintings. Johnbod 13:18, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Cheers, guys, thanks! I intend to let this one simmer for a little while & see what we come up with... ___Just plain Bill 15:24, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Teaching figure drawing and figure painting, I've long been conscious of the distinctions. But these seem to be an issue primarily in the West; Asian art has long drawn (pun not intended) little distinction between drawing and painting. It is in the Western culture that drawing functions both as preparatory instrument and as an end in itself. If this is not already in the article, I can add something along these lines, with cites...time permitting. Today I'm teaching. JNW 22:50, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
OK, I'll throw something together while I'm still on a roll here. Feel free to gut it and start over, if need be. I won't be able to supply cites; more of a writer, musician and handyman here. As far as graphic arts go, I is more of a dilettante with some interest and atelier exposure. __Just plain Bill 00:30, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gallery

Here a couple dozen images from Wikimedia Commons, in no particular order. I'm thinking of putting a gallery towards the end of the article, before the Notes section. Some of these are, in fact engravings or plates from books, originating from a drawn source... __Just plain Bill 03:10, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I was looking at the Commons, which is indeed a mess. Only actual photos of drawings belong here, and good quality ones (well reproduced I mean). But we certainly need more images in the article. Ones to illustrate the main media etc. As always the detail info texts on the Commons pics are awful. Johnbod 03:29, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
It'd be nice to go for quality images, I agree. Finding that in free images may take some time, and meanwhile I could see putting up a handful of these as examples. Nothing in the current rev. of the wikipedia is graven in stone, and if better images come along, they can go in the gallery instead. If we're lucky, keeping the gallery from getting bloated will be fun... __Just plain Bill 04:03, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Comic illustration

Quince

Herreshoff design

Textile design

C. W. Allers, Naples beach

C. W. Allers, Berlin street

C. W. Allers, Circus troupe

Watteau trois crayons

Watteau trois crayons

Frogs

Starling

Crow on a branch

Finches

Cartoon

Pomacentrus Trimaculatus

Generalized insect

Ants

Snodgrass

Ingres drawing

Goltzius drawing

C. W. Allers self-portrait

Balzac by P.J. David

Sargent drawing

Pascin drawing