Talk:Dragon (Dungeons & Dragons)

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[edit] HD Table

What is the point of the HD table? It would be a lot more simple to note the levels of power (from white to gold), and not add useless information that is inexplainable to thse who are not familiar with the system, and trivia for those who are.

I agree. I'm definitely not against "fancruft", having added a fair bit myself over the years, but that table's a bit much. Not to mention that the stats are version-specific, the second edition's dragons have a very different progression (I just checked the old Monsterous Compendium) and I'm assuming first edition dragons were also different. I'm taking it out. Bryan 02:03, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Dragons are more like felines than reptiles"?

For the record, having "mammal-like" limbs, rather than sprawling like most reptiles, is (or was) an important characteristic of dinosaurs.

You'll have to read Draconomicon to get the full details, but excerpts from the book do detail their feline-like attributes, which are listed in the article.

And dinosaurs were not reptiles. There are several major differences between a reptile and a dinosaur.

[edit] Books about dragons

I added the "Books about dragons" section. Please help expand it. SpectrumDT 15:26, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Do we want pictures for this?

I can easily get ahold of illustrations of every major D&D dragon type. Should I do so, or might WotC decide to take issue with that? I have a drawing of a silver dragon that isn't in any official books, and I'm going to go ahead and upload that. Rogue 9 05:26, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

What is that image's source? Better a dubiously "fair use" image with a known source than a complete unknown. Bryan 02:03, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
The image is a Todd Lockwood oil print seen here and appears to be copyright of Wizards of the Coast. Since its not even being used to represent his work in any way, shouldn't it be removed? Lewis 00:53, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
It's being used to represent the object in question (that is to say, a D&D dragon). This is unquestionably a correct instance of fair use. Rogue 9 16:08, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
It's not being used to illustrate the artists work though, which I guess is why somebody else removed it. It may be useful to upload a book cover of one of the books mentioned, possibly Draconomicon as that will certainly be for the purpose of illustrating the depiction of dragons within Dungeons & Dragons. -- Lewis 00:21, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Croc Connection

I think that Dragons getting stronger as they get older is based on crocidiles growing until they die should this be mentioned ? Rubedeau 20:41, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dwarves ahve human blood what?!

What is the scource of the comment at the end of dragon biology about half-dragons being abominations? Horrific Grammar aside it makes no sence. Regshoe 20:45, 19 June 2006 (BST)

[edit] Classification of Fang and Shadow Dragons

Should fang and shadow dragons continue to be classified as Faerunian dragons, considering that they most recently appear in the non-setting specific Draconomicon supplement? CCShade 15:45, 28 July 2006 (EST)

[edit] Seperate Pages

AD&D Dragons are noteworthy and each major color and metal deserves a page of its own. Like Red Dragon (Dungeons & Dragons) and Green Dragon (Dungeons & Dragons). Please help to complete a page for each. - Peregrinefisher 06:12, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I concur. There is a lot more information such as anatomical differences and more indepth descriptions + stats that could be added. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.110.196.48 (talk) 07:03, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Non-true dragons? Steel/Mercury versus Purple/Brown?

Even if the Steel and Mercury dragons aren't considered true 'metallic' dragons, they should at least be on the table. Seems like anything on the table should be any kind of 'true' dragon, that is, ANY dragon with listed age categories in its recent game-stat listings. AFAIK, they've had those in this edition.

Alex 'Leonidus' Krumwiede 09:46, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Incomplete references

Please format the following references & remove them from this list when complete.--Robbstrd 00:01, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hellfire Wyrm

Where do Hellfire Wyrms (Monster Manual III, I think, but don't quote me) fit in as far as dragon classification? Or at least, shouldn't they be mentioned somehow? They strike me as much too powerful to not note. Xiphe 03:11, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Hellfire Wyrm (Monster Manual II) isn't a "standard" dragon (i.e. Gem, Prismatic, or Metallic); I would classify it as a "Lesser Dragon" since it is an "agent of the Nine Hells" (Quoted from MMII). -Jeske (v^_^v) 03:29, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
They should probably be mentioned at List of Planar dragons. They seem to be as dragon-ish as the planar dragons in the draconomicon. The MM 2 says they're a "Huge Dragon (Fire)." I wouldn't say they're a lesser dragon. They have more hit dice than a gold dragon. - Peregrine Fisher 03:39, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sunwyrm

I know these guys have been in dnd based novel settings. I believe you will find one in one of the new year of the dragons Forgotten Realms (Faerûnian) novels —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.110.196.48 (talk) 07:06, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Dubious

a Gold dragon has a maximum weight of 1,280,000 pounds? This is not really dubious, it is ludicrous. Cheers, Jack Merridew 10:09, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Either way it is now properly cited. Web Warlock (talk) 12:50, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Question for Jack - is it ludicrous because you think it's obvious that a gold dragon could easily weigh more than that, or because a gold dragon could never weigh even that much? I'm unsure what kind of point you're trying to make? Rray (talk) 15:04, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
A 22 foot max height, a max wingspan of 135 feet, and better than 1 and a quarter million pounds? That is ludicrous. But hey, it's fiction; whatever writer wrote those specs (in whatever primary source) is a twit. Nothing says fiction has to make any sense. I did not look at where those numbers were introduced into the article; I suspected that it might be someone's ideas of a joke. Now you have a cited bit of silliness. Cheers, Jack Merridew 15:13, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Right, and I happen to agree with you Jack, BUT to say anything else is WP:OR. Now I have about two dozen books on dragons for D&D laying around here. I could very easily find another reference that gives more reasonable weights but why? I have to spend my time here digging up references for everything else. Web Warlock (talk) 15:59, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
OR does not apply to talk pages. Glad to agree with you on some things. Cheers, Jack Merridew 16:11, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Right. Just out of curiosity how much should a gold dragon weigh? Whatever formula the author used it looks like she used it through out the book. Web Warlock (talk) 16:28, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Well, gold IS pretty dense. Maybe the dragon is literally made of gold? Lead is heavy too... Rray (talk) 16:50, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

(Personal attack by SPA Giftitem (talk · contribs) removed by Jéské (v^_^v :L13 ½-Raichu Soulknife))

You can't ignore him; he has got a valid point, which applies to many other D&D articles: this material should be not be treated as fact when in reality it is fiction. Providing "statistics", such as dragon weighs 1,280,000 pounds is basically a fictional device, the reproduction of which falls outside the scope of Wikipedia. These "statistics" are too in-universe to be of encyclopedic value as they fail WP:WAF, and should be removed, otherwise WP will be knee deep in "statistics" of fictional characters. Regurgitation or repetion of primary source material, particularly fictional content is a widespread problem with many D&D articles, which is why so many of them now have in universe cleanup templates. These "statistics" may not be OR, but you to ask what value has this information out-side of the game? Adding references does not provide a means of circumventing WP:WAF, nor does not make it worthy for inclusion in WP. --Gavin Collins (talk) 15:11, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
It is no different than the articles stating that a Hobbit is between 2 and 4 feet tall or a Smurf is "three apples high". You have issues with that then go vandalize those articles for a while. Web Warlock (talk) 15:55, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
You cannot argue that the guideline WP:WAF does not apply just because other articles make the same mistake, since there is nothing stopping anyone from ignoring the guideline. Also, the citation you have added (from Mirrorstone) is not considered a suitable secondary source because it is affiliated with the publishers (Wizards of the Coast). --Gavin Collins (talk) 17:25, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
And you can't argue that it does apply just because of your opinion. Wikipedia works on consensus, rather than out of respect for Gavin Collins' opinion. Rray (talk) 18:03, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
If Wikipedia ever really does work the way Gavin wants it to, then he can have it. What a dull, dreary place that must be. BOZ (talk) 20:02, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Wikipedia does work on consensus which states:
"An in-universe perspective describes the narrative from the perspective of characters within the fictional universe, treating it as if it were real and ignoring real-world context and sourced analysis. The threshold of what constitutes in-universe writing is making any effort to re-create or uphold the illusion of the original fiction by omitting real-world info.
Many fan wikis and fan websites (see below) take this approach, but it should not be used for Wikipedia articles. An in-universe perspective is inaccurate and misleading, gives undue weight to unimportant information and invites unverifiable original research. Most importantly, in-universe perspective defies community consensus as to what we do not want Wikipedia to be or become."
I think that once Web Warlock, Rray and BOZ grasp this, we can all work together.--Gavin Collins (talk) 22:51, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Please...I have forgotten more about writing scholarly content than you'll ever know. You simply put are narrow-minded and lack the imagination that even got a project like this off the ground in the first place. Stick to accounting, it’s less strenuous. And yeah, I have taught MBA level accounting courses before. Web Warlock (talk) 23:01, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Is there any way to "work together" with Gavin that doesn't involve following all of his favorite rules in the exact way he interprets them? Because if not, then I'm not interested. BOZ (talk) 23:48, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
I doubt it, if past history is any indication. To be honest, I'm surprised that Gavin hasn't been blocked from editing (and by editing I mean tagging and trying to delete) RPG associated articles due to a repetatively demonstrated profound lack of knowledge about the material itself. I haven't seem him improve the content of articles on his own, rather I've only seen him use the bully pulpit of tags and AFDs to force others to scramble to do the work. That's a poor method to gain respect or foster any sense of community, and it ends up driving people away from WP. The sooner Gavin understands this, he'll become a much better editor. I hope he does.Shemeska (talk) 20:48, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
The passage that Gavin quoted is a guideline for how to write about fiction. The implementation of that guideline is supposed to be handled by building consensus. Gavin's chosen communication style creates conflict; it doesn't work toward consensus. Assuming that the people you're supposed to be collaborating with are wrong just because they disagree with your interpretation of the guidelines isn't constructive.
Consensus, by the way, is policy. The passage that Gavin quoted is from a guideline. Here's the appropriate passage explaining the difference: "Policies and guidelines express standards that have community consensus, though to differing degrees: policies are considered a standard that all users should follow, whereas guidelines are more advisory in nature." (From Wikipedia:POLICY). Rray (talk) 00:17, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Gavin's favorite rule to ignore is Wikipedia:Civility (a policy, not a guideline). Once he grasps that one, then I think we can all work together. I'm not going to hold my breath, in the meantime. BOZ (talk) 00:23, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm not holding my breath, either. However, I personally think that, given that he thought TSR was still a company, let alone the owners of the D&D property, he should not edit any article related to the game until he brings his knowledge up to at least the year 2007. -Jéské (v^_^v :L13 ½-Raichu Soulknife) 04:20, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
The point I was making before the personal attacks started is that this article has a strong in universe perspective that fails WP:WAF, I think on this point we are surely agreed. --Gavin Collins (talk) 08:30, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
No one misunderstood the point you were trying to make. And I don't know how you come away from this discussion thinking that "we are surely agreed". Rray (talk) 09:40, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
  • So what is your counter-point? Please state your counter proposal. --Gavin Collins (talk) 09:59, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] How this article can be improved

I don't think adding citations to an article with a heavy in universe perspective will improve it at all. I think that the in universe content, such as the descriptions and statistics should be edited out, and the remaining content converted into a list. --Gavin Collins (talk) 08:49, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

I say that the physical description (sans weight, length, shoe size, etc.) should stay, even if stripped to its bare bones; I agree that stats and weight, length, shoe size, etc. are cruft, but disagree that adding citations to the article is an exercise in futility. -Jéské (v^_^v :L13 ½-Raichu Soulknife) 09:38, 7 March 2008 (UTC)