From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Draft dodger article.
Please sign and date your posts by typing four tildes (~~~~). Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Ask questions, get answers. This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject.	Be polite Assume good faith No personal attacks Be welcoming	Article policies No original research Neutral point of view Verifiability

	Politics Portal This article is supported by WikiProject Anti-war, a collective approach to organizing and unifying articles related to the anti-war movement. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
Start	This article has been rated as start-Class on the Project's quality scale. (If you rated the article please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.)

	Vietnam Portal This article is part of WikiProject Vietnam, an attempt to create a comprehensive, neutral, and accurate representation of Vietnam on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale.

	Canada Portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Canada and related WikiProjects, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to articles on Canada-related topics. If you would like to participate, visit the project member page, to join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
Start	This article has been rated as start-Class on the quality scale.
Mid	This article has been rated as mid-importance on the importance scale.

Contents 1 The term 2 Soldiers as refugees 2.1 1000 Deserters to Canada in total  ??? 3 removed clean-up tag 4 "...or otherwise broke any laws" 5 Other uses of the term 6 Present ramifications 7 Can we move this to a more neutral title? 8 Requested move 9 Vandalism on the page 10 Additional countries that attracted US draft dodgers 11 Artless dodger 11.1 Problems 11.2 Political examples 11.3 Canada

[edit] The term

"Canada also later chose to accept deserters..." According to the resources I can find, a deserter who came to Canada could have been extradited to the US, as desertion (unlike draft dodging) is a crime in Canada. Did many deserters come to Canada?

Also, I understood "draft dodger" to include not only those who went to other countries, but also those who stayed put and attempted to evade the draft while remaining in the US. Clarification? - Montréalais 17:29, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Actually the opening of the article is inaccurate. "Draft Dodger" as a term goes back at least to WWI and possibily earlier.

"Draft dodger" was a sort of umbrella term for anyone who wanted to avoid the draft, though it was most used for the most visible--those who went to Canada or (earlier) Sweden. More specifically, you had draft evaders, those who stayed in the US and tried techniques from pretending to be sick to doing things to keep off the 1-A list (college, marriage, quietly attemtping to refuse--Clinton was effectively a draft evader." Then you had draft resisters, not a large number, who paid public shows of resistance, tried not to register, some did not show up for induction or wouldn't take the oath. Finally draft refusers, who stood up and refused (the only really honest ones, IMO) which included conscientious objectors. -- Cecropia | explains it all ® 19:44, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Use of the term "deserter" is problematic. I have a letter which my commanding officer sent my father saying I had been "dropped from the rolls as a deserter" after being AWOL (absent without leave) for only 7 days. I believe at the time (1966) the army did not turn one's case over to the FBI until one had been AWOL for a month. But still, one was not a deserter until a court martial said so. If captured and charged, there were many defences against the charge of desertion, even if one had been absent for considerable periods. Referring to people such as myself, who went AWOL and remain at large, as deserters, is incorrect. Alleged deserters, perhaps, or absconders, but not deserters until they are convicted as such. To answer a question above, yes, absconders as well as evaders went to Canada, but Toronto was only a stopover for me. I went on to my country of birth, Great Britain. Yes, foreign citizens were drafted too. TheNameWithNoMan (talk) 17:26, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Soldiers as refugees

Soldiers were allowed into Canada as refugees. The WWI draft dodgers were able to easily evade the draft, as no one expected such an action to be taken among so many. Rules and regulations were created, making it exceedingly difficult, such as in the Vietnam War, to Draft Dodge once again.

[edit] 1000 Deserters to Canada in total  ???

I do not believe US soldiers nor draft dodgers were ever given refugee status in Canada. However, a person's previous involvement in military organizations had no bearing on immigration to Canada.

I have seen estimates of up to 50000 particularly after 1968. In any case, 1000 is too low. By 1970, when I entered Canada, the Toronto Anti-draft program people were estimating a deserter to dodger ratio of 4:1.

Also, the term draft dodger was used by my father to describe his cousin who worked on the Alaska highway rather than join the military durng WW 2. It did not originate with Vietnam. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 47.248.0.43 (talk • contribs) .

I believe "draft dodgers" were treated very differently from deserters (i.e. actual soldiers) by Canada during the Vietnam War. CBC cites a figure of 40000-60000 here in an article about Jeremy Hinzman. --Saforrest 14:31, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, lad. I am one of those vietnam era draft dodgers who still lives in Canada. I personally knew at least 15 to 20 deserters quite well. They were treated exactly the same as a dodger. The only requirement to stay in Canada was to legally immigrate as a "landed immigrant". Once that was done, there were no strings beyond the normal restrictions on any other immigrant. One of my deserter acquaintances once made the observation the "the only real difference between a draft dodger and a deserter was foresight." And, as far as I'm concerned, 1000 total deserters during Vietnam is far too low. Sounds like someone has an agenda to discredit desertion here.

Furthermore the following weblink maintained by Joesph Jones at the University of British Columbia Library, makes the following statement: "What upper bound on numbers is indicated by U.S. statistics? An official U.S. review of the data cites 209,517 cases of accused draft offenders and 100,000 less-than-honorable military discharges for absence offenses – a total that exceeds 300,000. By the 1977 Carter pardon the same source estimates a total of 11,000 American offenders at large, the “overwhelming majority” in exile. In the early 1970s the United States made liberal use of administrative measures to reduce embarrassing numbers." http://www.library.ubc.ca/jones/hstrnt.html

[edit] removed clean-up tag

The article seems of pretty average cleanliness to me at this point. If anyone disagrees feel free to replace it. Kalkin

[edit] "...or otherwise broke any laws"

In the section on US politicans and "draft dodging" charges, the phrase "or otherwise broke any laws" was added to the claim that none of the US candidates accused of draft dodging actually refused conscription and/or fled the country.

I'm not sure about that. Some politicians have been accused of rather dubious (and possibly illegal) activites regarding military service, such as having strings pulled in order to receive preferential treatment from military officials, in order to secure safe postings like Guard assignments. Ignoring the question of whether or not the public officials so accused actually did this--the question remains:

• Would it be illegal? Or is it a permissible use of military judgment for a National Guard commander to save a spot for the son of a friendly politician?
• If such activities occured, then who is the lawbreaker? The young man who receives the preferential treatment? His father, uncle, or whoever who arranged for it to occur? The military official which cooperated with this?

I don't know the answers. Pulling such strings to avoid military service certainly strikes me as unethical (especially if the individual in question is pro-war, but doesn't want his own ass in the combat zone), and is not a desirable trait to have in a public official--but I don't know if it is actually illegal or not.

Depending on the answers to the above, it might be better if the claim were reversed. I'm leaving it for now, but let's discuss.--EngineerScotty 06:03, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

This whole National Guard business is greatly overblown because of the current Iraq situation. Being in the Guard or Reserves was considered a perfectly honorable way (at least in the broader society) of trying to avoid the risks of Vietnam It was not guaranteed and I personally know of at least one person who was in the Guard and did end up in Vietnam (involuntarily). Please remember that as late as 1992 and 1996, Bill Clinton, a person who actually refused service, was twice elected President. -- Cecropia 06:57, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Clinton refused service? When and where? He had a legal student deferment early in the war (and one that he, as an excellent student and a Rhodes scholar certainly deserved). When student deferment ended, Clinton was subject to the draft--but had a high lottery number and was never called. The only way that Clinton "refused" service is that he didn't run down to the local recruitment office and enlist voluntarily. At no point was he ever conscripted.

At any rate, thousands of young men tried to enlist in the Guard, the Navy, the Coast Guard, ROTC, or numerous other places where the chance of them getting shot at by the Viet Cong would be considerably lower. Unlike today (where the Guard is getting a significant share of duty in Iraq), the National Guard was generally a safe place to be during Vietnam. There were many more people who wanted in than there were slots available; to many, seeing the children of the rich and powerful getting to go to the front of the line seems unseemly (and may, in fact, constitute an abuse of power). --EngineerScotty 07:06, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Why do you think it was the children of the rich and powerful that got into the Guard and Reserves? I could have gotten in and I'm about as unrich and unpowerful as you get. The children of the rich and powerful mostly got out of the service altogether. As to avoiding service, first he used William Fulbright's office to land a position in the ROTC at his university in order to avoid the draft, then requested a year deferment of his obligation to begin basic training in order to attend Oxford. Later, when he was to be called to fulfill his commitment (he didn't serve in the military, did he?) he told the Colonel (I think it was) that he didn't want to fulfill his commitment. Seems like refusal to me. -- Cecropia 07:30, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

If you're thinking of the letter to Colonel Holmes, that was written after Clinton received a high lottery number (and was thus safe from the draft). Prior to the lottery, the draft board had sent out two induction notices, but withdrew them for various reasons. Many have alleged undue influence in the process, in the case of the second withdrawl the decision was up to a (different) colonel.

Of course, much of went on was part of the duty of pre-lottery draft boards--to decide who, among the eligible young men of the local community, was to become cannon fodder, and who wasn't. Not every man of age got drafted. Many thought the whole process unfair (and I agree with this), which was why--in large part--the lottery was instituted and the various deferments abolished. At any rate, Clinton is certainly entitled to plead his case to his local draft board, that's how draft boards operated (and how millions of young men sought to avoid service). At any rate, I fail to see how the accusations against Clinton in this regard are any more serious than those against Bush or other politicians. Both political parties have demonstrated hypocrisy on the issue. --EngineerScotty 08:10, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Clinton sought Fulbright's help to get the ROTC spot in the first place, and this got him a 1-D draft status, which was reserved for people who were slated for the Guard or Reserves. He still had this status in October of 1969, when Nixon announced that the October eligibles would fill the slots for October, November and December. IOW, if you weren't drafted in the October pool, you were safe for 1969. On December 1, Clinton learned he had the very high draft number of 311, freeing him from jeopardy in 1970. On December 2 he applied to Yale, abandoning the University where he would have served in the ROTC, and on December 3, he wrote to Colonel Holmes. Is this so terrible? Not in my estimation, but if Bush was in little jeopardy by being in the Air National Guard, he was in more jeopardy and served more than Clinton ever did, and it was the height of hypocisy, after two terms of Clinton, to try sink Bush's presidency on the bogus Air Guard issue. -- Cecropia 08:40, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

I'll add a point about the National Guard. It wasn't all that hard to get into the National Guard and Reserves in most states, if you made your mind to do it before the Selective Service was breathing down your neck. This was because most people who hoped to avoid service hoped to avoid it altogether. -- Cecropia 06:58, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

IIRC, slots filled up very quickly, a lot depending on when you came of age. Older young men often could get guard slots, but those who turned 18 in the late 60s or early 70s were generally screwed. By that time, the war was already unpopular, resistance of many forms was high, and most of the Guard slots had already been filled. --EngineerScotty 07:13, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

"Older young men" got into the Guard? I'd really like to know where you got that impression? I don't think you're old enough to have experienced it yourself. You did not enlist in the Guard or Reserves through Selective Service, you went to a recruiter. If you were older, it almost always meant that you had had deferments of one or another kind, and SSS went after you first. At that point, the Guard or Reserves may not have helped you, even if they wanted you. -- Cecropia 07:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

What I meant by that was, men who became draft-eligible earlier in the war had a better chance of securing a "safe" spot, fulfilling their commitment, and thus immune to being drafted for duty in Vietnam; not that getting a deferment woule make you less likely to be drafted when your deferment ran out. You're right in that I'm way too young; what I know I know from reading lots of material, and from my own father who was of draft age at that time. He managed to get a Guard spot (without benefit of any political influence or illegal maneuvers), and didn't have to go to Vietnam. (He has some interesting stories about this...) Of course, he's never run for office so nobody cares whether he went to Vietnam or not.--EngineerScotty 08:16, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, you see your dad and I could both get in the Guard (but I didn't want to) without illegality or political influence. That should count for at least something in addition to your readings. ;-) -- Cecropia 08:29, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Other uses of the term

I can't think of how to possibly modify it, but I'm rather bothered by the "other uses." It is just too broad. I mean, a draft dodger is someone who actively pursues a course of avoidance. A draft resister challenges the system up front. Minor means of avoidance, such as claiming the ever popular "trick knee" or seeking a student deferment are attempts to "play the system" which is not the same as dodging--i.e., at least in the context of Vietnam there was no shame at all attached to it, at least among peers. Enlisting in the National Guard or Reserve does not rise to the level of draft dodging--in fact, until Vietnam the U.S. Government used to run ads telling you that you could avoid active duty by enlisting in the reserves (in order to fill the ranks of reservists). It is also not right to include sincere COs. CO was not easy to get, you could still be drafted for an noncombatant, and COs during WWII actually went to jail. Including medics is frankly outrageous. Medics were, by the nature of their job, in some of the most dangerous situations in any war. COs who were medics did it to avoid having to carry a weapon in war, not to avoid danger. -- Cecropia 06:49, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Present ramifications

Although the US has deserters from Iraqi and Afghanistan, aren't they all volunteers? It doesn't appear to make sense to grant asylum to someone who willing joined the army. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.108.71.91 (talk • contribs) 2 March 2006.

[edit] Can we move this to a more neutral title?

This article lumps together three things:

• "Draft evader", a legal category, people who illegally avoid conscription
• "Draft resister", a political category, a subset of war resisters who specifically resist conscription, either through draft evasion or through willingly facing prison sentences rather than be conscripted
• "Draft dodger", a pejorative that may refer to either of the above, or to conscientious objectors and others who avoid being drafted (or merely avoid being placed in combat roles) by legal means that the speaker deems unethical. (This is reasonably well discussed.)

Right now, the title is the vaguest and most pejorative of those terms, and that is also the emphasis of the article. I would suggest that a more appropriate title would be Draft evasion and resistance (with everything relevant redirecting there). The first paragraph should distinguish the three terms, more or less as I just did.

At a quick read, I think all of the material here belongs, but the article calls for massive expansion: as it stands, the article is terribly U.S.-centric and presentist. - Jmabel | Talk 21:58, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Lets hope someone has time. Kalkin 19:43, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm for a more neutral title, though "draft dodger" should redirect to the new home, and the term explained. Like it or not, it's part of the political discourse (especially in the US), and an exploration of the term is certainly warranted. Agreed that the article needs more content, especially relevant to parts of the world besides the US. How does Draft avoidance sound? It includes both evasion, resistance, and other quasi-legal means of not getting conscripted, as mentioned in the article. --EngineerScotty 00:42, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

On the redirect: of course.

"Draft avoidance" (I assume by analogy to "tax avoidance"?) is neutral, but not at all common. I wouldn't object, but I'll admit I like my own suggestion above better. - Jmabel | Talk 03:06, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Personally I prefer to use the most common term, draft dodger, even if it is somewhat pejorative. In the Canadian context I would also say that dodger isn't considered in any way negative, it is overwhelmingly the term these people use to self identify themselves. - SimonP 23:10, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

That's because the ones who ran off to Canada were evaders/dodgers. But the term is considered insulting by those who chose to stand their ground and risk prison sentences. Most of them believe that by accepting the consequences of their actions, they weren't "dodging" anything. - Jmabel | Talk 02:02, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. "Draft resistance" should be the main namespace, because it incorporates the activity of "draft evasion" and is the neutral term for the much of the activity referenced by the pejorative "draft dodging" -- even though the insult "draft dodging" may go outside draft resistance to include conscientious objection, which "draft resistance" does not. "Draft dodging" is so perjorative that it (IMHO) violates Wiki's NPOV. Using it as the article name suggests Wiki endorses the denigration of draft resistors. Re using "draft avoidance" (697 Google hits at this moment) -- would that be close to coining a new label for this activity? "Draft resistance" is already in common use (79,400 Google hits at this moment). I think ease of use supports "draft resistance" v. "draft avoidance." Thanks to Jmabel for raising the issue and outlining it so well. -- Lisasmall 22:40, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I'd be perfectly happy with "draft resistance". Let's give it a couple of days to see if anyone objects. - Jmabel | Talk 03:24, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I support leaving it as is, per SimonP. BTW I think the request for a move is premature. Anchoress 13:38, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I also maintain my objections. Active draft resistance is a very different concept from draft dodging, and the best solution would be to have a separate article on each term. - SimonP 14:17, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

• IMO, Draft Dodger is the only title that makes sense. Certainly the most commonly used term, and the one most widely recognized, "draft dodger" has entered the vernacular has the legitimate term to describe the action. Certainly if necessary a section can be included in the article discussing alternative names for the practice, but far from being PoV, "Draft Dodger" is the commonly accepted word in this instance. -- pm_shef 15:36, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
• I don't think it really matters what legal terms there are for it, Draft Dodger is the most common term, and the only one I've ever heard used. I hear it on the news all the time. I'm talking about all news stations in Canada (Global, CTV, CBC) too. People who came to Canada instead of Vietnam call themselves draft dodgers. There is also a WWII song by Canadians called "We are the D-Day Dodgers", which refered to the 1st Canadaian Arm that was in Italy at the time of D-Day. Dodgers is common, and nobody is arguing about the word "draft". As for using it only in a negative connitation, that is an American POV. Canadians don't consider the term derogitory. It is just a term, like the brain drain, or immagrant. It just means they "immigrated" to Canada to avoid the draft. It's just Americans that go "Oh my God! Draft Dodger! Court-martial and put in jail!" -Royalguard11^{TalkMy Desk} 17:46, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Have you ever bothered listening to the lyrics of ""We are the D-Day Dodgers"? It is a bitter reply to Lady Astor who referred to the soldiers by that expression. It is to some degree a reappropriation of the term, but for the most part it is a protest against having a pejorative applied to them. "Now Lady Astor, get a load of this. / Don't stand up on a platform and talk a load of piss. / You're the nation's sweetheart, the nation's pride / But your bloody big mouth is far too wide." - Jmabel | Talk 08:04, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

So are you folks saying that this article should stay at this title, and that it should not include draft resistance that is not draft dodging?? If that's the case, we need a different article on draft resistance. - Jmabel | Talk 08:04, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

• • Draft avoidance. It's neutral but sufficiently broad. Trekphiler 11:06, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

[edit] Vandalism on the page

I have been coming across random messages, such as the one that reads keesha wolfe is fugly (which is situated in the paragraph describing consciencios objectors). Could someone please put a lock on this page or something. Its getting to be annoying. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 204.38.99.7 (talk • contribs) 15 November 2006.

Not nearly the level for protection. Easily reverted, not actually an article that gets a lot of vandalism. - Jmabel | Talk 05:59, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Additional countries that attracted US draft dodgers

I've read that Switzerland also accepted US draft dodgers, in addition to Canada and Sweden. Can anyone verify this? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.160.148.169 (talk • contribs) 07:14, 3 December 2006 (UTC).

Uninformed answer: certainly where Sylvester Stallone sat out the war. But I suspect that if you took up longterm residency in Switzerland, you had to be willing to serve in the Swiss Army; at least at that time they had universal service. - Jmabel | Talk 04:27, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Artless dodger

IMHO, this whole page is POV. It's entirely focused on the American experience & Vietnam. Where are Canadian (Quebecois) evaders? Americans in Civil War, WWI, WW2? (For instance, Garrison's Civil War Trivia Fact Book has 1250 deserters a week, with "run money" {as USN called it}, paid for returning them, starting at $5, rising to $30 by the end of the war.) And where are Brits, French, Germans, Japanese, Russians? This is supposed to be an international project, not Encyclopedia Uncle Sam. Trekphiler 11:23, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Complain or contribute? Ymous 17:54, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I woule agree with Trekphiler that the article is US centric (and concentrates on the Vietnam era) Draft dodging still takes place today in Poland, Turkey and many other countries. Nevertheless it is an interesting article. What about renaming it "Draft dodging (United States)" and start a new article from an International perspective.80.229.222.48 22:41, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Go for it. Also it would be interesting to track it at different times, of course. Joseph René Vilatte apparently dodged the draft in Napoleonic France by moving to Belgium so he didn't have to be in the army for 7 years. Tempshill (talk) 19:06, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Problems

Just speaking as perhaps one of the few people reading this who was actually drafted, the entire article has many problems. I tried to slip into the Guard, but had no connections and didn't know the right people. Because my father was a WW II veteran and he wanted me to serve or avoid service properly, I entered law school and was a 4.0 student there. Nevertheless, I had a rural draft board and they needed a warm body and so off to Vietnam I went in 1968.

It is necessary, in any discussion of draft-dodging, to cite the many politicians who dodged it. It isn't partisan to do so because plenty of Democrats and Republicans dodged the draft. It is relevant to point out politicians who dodged because of the hypocrisy angle. It is hypocritical to say you seek public service when the job has safety and prestige, but to not have sought public service when the job was very dangerous.

It was also silly to say Clinton's primary reason to avoid the draft was to avoid any break in his career. Heck, everybody's primary motive was to avoid being killed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.44.145.230 (talk) 04:23, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Political examples

The use of so many politicians as examples smacks of agenda-pushing. Granted, it serves to taint a variety of them, from both major US parties, but that's still an agenda. As much as I like to see hipocrites like ___ and ___ and especially ___ exposed for what they are, this isn't the place for it, so I propose these examples all be removed. If examples of each kind of draft-dodging are needed, the article should use hypotheticals. - JasonAQuest (talk) 21:49, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Canada

I was thinking of adding Category:History of Canada here, or even Category:Ethnic groups in Canada; maybe a subarticle American draft dodgers in Canada might be worthwhile because of the special impact on Canada and Canadian society this migration had, and also the high profile many of these same individuals attatined in Canadian society. I'll read the article overleaf to see what is andisn't in it, just fielding this suggestion, and wondering about including a Canadian category. I'll definitely add the WPCan template if it's not already here though...Skookum1 (talk) 19:45, 30 March 2008 (UTC)