Talk:Dowry

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on 10 December 2006. The result of the discussion was speedy keep.

Contents

[edit] Ummm....

So maybe all of the peer reviewed sources I have been reading are completely wrong, but my impression is that dowry in India is not only going strong, but is much, much more prevalent than in the late 80's and 90's. I think that the "Dowry in India" section needs to be drastically changed. 128.239.47.89 (talk) 05:35, 20 March 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Why?

Sorry to be so obtuse, but what is (was) the purpose of dowry? What is the logic behind it? Why was it paid? What (social or economic or other) purpose did it serve? As a bribe(to get someone to marry the daughter)? If so, why should a bribe be necessary? Because women have (had) no intrinsic economic value in themselves? Perhaps they have no economic value because they can't own land/operate a business in their own right? Or because they can't inherit? But then, why the opposite custom among Germanic tribes? Different inheritance customs, maybe?

Grendlegrutch 21:07, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] History?

History of this odd custom would be great if any experts would like to volunteer.


[edit] disputed

Some of the claims by Quintessencecat are factually incorrect.


1) It has not been substantiated what one means by "staggering number". India Govt website ncrb.nic.in shows that dowry deaths(more than 65% of which are suicides) are only 0.01% . Add to it the fact that these numbers at ncrb.nic.in are alleged crimes and not proven crimes. And last but not the least there is no proof whatsoever required to report a suicide as dowry death. Courtesy IPC 113B, Every suicide by default within first 7 years of marriage is treated as murder by husband AND Contrary to universal cornerstone of justice "Innocent, until proved guilty" it assumes husband guilty until proven innocent. Despite all of this bias in favor of women, the conviction rate is still below 30%. Thus, the number of accepted dowry murders are well below 0.003%.


2) The second claim that laws punish both women and man equally also is misleading and farce at best. Not a SINGLE women(or her family member) in the 40 years of history of dowry laws in India has ever been punished for giving dowry as against several lacs of men and families which undergo the trauma when a false case is registered on mere verbal/written statement by an unscrupulous individual. Legally speaking there is no proof required on the woman's part to lodge her complaint and the police is mandated to act and arrest, whosoever has been mentioned in unsubstantiated complaint, by default. In many cases kinds under age ten and sometimes even under age 5 have been sent behind bars for "alleged harassment" of an adult women 25-35 years old. Arrests have happened even when there is prima-facie evidence of husbands or family members being innocent. These arrests without any proof are main tools in the hand of unscrupulous women and family members to exhort huge money(running in lacs and millions) from husband once the marriage has broken.

india_crusade 11:59, 02 August 2007 (IST)

Would someone be so kind as to go through this article and clean it up? It makes the silliest, most unsubstanciated set of claims I've seen in a Wikipedia article. For example, the claim that the page leads with, "that dowry is a relatively new concept in India," is just ridiculous.

I agree. I'm pondering ways to clean it up, but I'm thinking it might need a complete overhaul. In the meantime, I've marked it for clean-up. -205.156.188.254 17:33, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

I also agree with the overhaul. This entry is the absolute worst I have ever come across. The section on India is particularly disturbing, as it makes numerous unsubstantiated claims that strike me as pure misogyny. The overwhelming evidence (supported by many independent sources) shows how utterly misogynistic the whole concept of dowries is in India, with a staggering number of women being tortured and murdered (burned alive, poisoned, forced to commit suicide) by their husbands and in-laws through pure dowry greed. This person's entry makes a bare mention of dowry murder, whilst banging on about how "poor" men are treated. The anti-dowry laws in India in fact punish both sides of a dowry transaction, so the bride's family are equally punishable for even entering into a dowry. Why would women abuse a law that hurts them also? The fact is that many women are victims, both of custom and cruelty. They not only suffer in having to pay a dowry, but they also become slaves in the home of their husbands, subject to abuse and torture, and murdered. If you don't mention any of this in an article about dowries in India, then you are negligent. Further, if you make it seem like the men are the victims, then you are distorting the truth.

Quintessencecat 06:56, 10 December 2006 (UTC)Quintessencecat

What I meant to say is that *I* have marked it for clean-up (I forgot to log in before marking it & adding the previous comment). -Rhrad 17:35, 26 September 2006 (UTC)


I am not familiar about the case in India. But as for China, the case discussed here is obviously not the general case. In fact, I don't think China or in the tradition Chinese culture, there is a counter-part about this "dowry" system described here. 'Bride price' may be a better fit for China.--Augest 05:29, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Dowry started as a 'streedhan' and not as a way to manage groom with high social status. That was usually ensured through caste system and people perception of social status. I think Dowry page should start with this history.

That should not start the page because India is merely one place that practice dowry, and the introduction should govern the general case. What it should start with is a neutral description of the practice in its most general terms, which would preclude "permit the marriage" and the claims that it was an effort to get daughters off your hands, and above all else the comment about women disliking the practice. Since in Europe a woman was generally guaranteed at least as much from their husband's estate as their dowry, and the dowry could be very useful indeed in setting up house, many, many, many women must have appreciated dowries very much. Goldfritha 22:56, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mahr

In Islam, the groom has to pay a sum of money to the bride as part of the marriage terms i.e. the mahr. However, when comparing the definitions of dowry to bride price, it seems that mahr is closer in definition to bride price than to mahr. Or perhaps isn't it better for mahr to have its own page, rather than be redirected to dowry? --Aidfarh 07:49, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

SOWRY is the reverse of Dowry and given as maintenance to the girl on breaking of marriage . This custom is prevalent from ancient times in all the society and has legal sanction D.O.W.R.Y. Daugthers own wealth released to you S.O.W.R.Y sons own wealth release to you Sowry harassment is also demand for lifestyle from her husband by a wife . The word is new but practice is old

If the mahr is paid to the bride, the closest equivalent term in English is the "morning gift" which was paid to the bride the morning after the wedding night. Goldfritha 00:44, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

In fact, on further research -- what that is is the dower. Just removed a section on Islam to dower. Goldfritha 17:21, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] bride price/dowry in China

"A sort of opposite tradition to a dowry is a bride price, paid by bridegroom to family of his bride."

The bride price article says that bride prices were a custom in China as well. Can a society really have both bride prices and dowries? Or is the Chinese practice more of the two families exchanging gifts(in which case it would not really be a dowry or bride price at all)?

As long as I know, the basic procedure of the counter part of so called "dowry"/bride price in tradition Chinese culture is like this: Before the wedding, there is an engagement rite. The groom parents need to give an amount of money or goods to the bride's family. This is reviewed as something like an engagement fee, i.e. the girl is engaged/reserved by the boy (or his family). Then if the girl or her family later cancel the possible marriage before the wedding, the money/goods would be generally returned to the groom's family, otherwise, it will belong to the girl's family. In the wedding, the bride's family would give some goods/money as a gift/assets to the bride, in other words, the bride would bring goods/money with her. This is more viewed as the bride's private savings than something pay to the groom's family. In anyway, this gift to bride is not a must. Although gift with greater value may make the bride feel honorable. It is basically ok for a bride's family to give small-valued gift or even nothing to the bride if the family are poor or due to some other reason. I think the case in China is not what dowry mean in this article. -Augest 05:08, 8 April 2006 (UTC)


It's very same in Thailand. An average man would need more than one year of his saving for this. The amount is determined by both family's wealth. The bride's family usually offer the amount they want and often keep the dowry for themselves or sometimes, spare the portion to the couple. The opposite never happen in Thailand's history. Groom's family never accept dowry from the bride's.

Theeraphat 24Apr2006

Yes, it is possible for a culture to have both bride price and dowry. In archaic Greece, bride price was serious, but by classical times, the bride price was token and the dowry serious business. Whether that applies to China. . . . 22:47, 6 May 2006 (UTC)


[edit] dowry & trousseau

I'm not an English language native speaker, not even a French Language native speaker, but if dowry is dote in Spanish, dot in French; and trosseau is ajuar in Spanish, trousseau in French; dowry and trosseau are not exactly the same thing; dowry is the tradition you talked about in the article and trousseau is the set of cloths, furniture and other things which the wife usually contributes with in the marriage. I know it is just a matter of nuances, and maybe in English they can be considered synonymous words.

I don't see anything on the OED about "trosseau" being part of the etmology. Can someone clarify?
[a. AF. dowarie fem. = OF. douaire masc., dower, dowry: cf. med.L. doāria fem. (1273 in Du Cange), beside doārium, dōdārium, dōtārium, neut.: see DOWER.] (source: OED)

(tyger 20:45, 10 May 2006 (UTC))

Anyway, for more information if you speak Spanish: es: Ajuar

I believe - please correct me if I'm mistaken - that the trosseau is different from a dowry. The dowry is the parents' gift to the groom, but the trosseau is their gift to the bride (the hope chest), to ensure that she isn't a financial burden while the couple gets their marriage underway. That's how my great grama spoke of it. --SHLAMA 05:33, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Since the dowry and trosseau both go to the newly-weds' household, I don't think they can be distinguished as such. The trosseau consists of clothing and similar things, such as sheets, while the dowry consists of land, money, livestock, etc. Goldfritha 23:01, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I do not agree that it is common for Indian family to continue giving dowry to the groom's family. There may be few exceptions, but I'm sure we are not talking of exceptions here.

One story that I have heard about the trousseau is that in certain societies it was the custom that all daughters should be married before the sons could get married, so the sons were motivated to give gifts to their sisters to encourage them to get married. 65.14.60.2 05:00, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] edit

sorry, i thought this article was about Islamic law. very sorry. --Striver 04:16, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Baha'i dowry

Baha'i dowry is given toto bride from the groom so that she will have financial resources of her own. It is only required in countries where dowries are common (not the United States) and women find it difficult to aquire their own wealth from their efforts.

In which case it is not dowry as traditionally used. Dower is closer, I suspect. Goldfritha 23:20, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dowry in England

Hopefully you'll find this relevant. In England during the Anglo-Saxon period (roughly 5th to 11th century) the 'dower' was called a morgengifu or morning gift which was paid by the prospective husband to his bride. The laws of AEthelbert show that this could be a very substantial amount in either money or land and certainly paid to the bride herself and not her family. This is kept by the woman throughout her life to keep, give away, sell or bequeath as she chooses. In the event of divorce - certainly not an uncommon practice at this time although how common is disputable - the woman will keep the morgengifu along with any children unless she is at fault through 'dishonesty' - explication of this is of course difficult. The idea of a dowry in England at this time is unheard of as a bride-price, and the practice whereby if a woman is kidnapped her bride-price must be paid - was in fact wergild or manpayment, paid in compensation to the woman, and not in fact as a dowry for her to pay a future potential suitor.

You incorrectly assume that the comment about the kidnapped woman was referring to Anglo-Saxon England. Goldfritha 23:38, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Apologies - I did not assume that anyone else was referring to Anglo-Saxon England, I was merely pointing out practices in Anglo-Saxon England in the hope of providing an interesting contrast.

[edit] Muslim non-dowry

By definition, dowry goes from the bride's family to the couple. Therefore, since the Muslims do not do that, they do not practice dowry.

The article for property from the groom to the bride is dower. And the link is in the lede. Goldfritha 19:10, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm not going to start an RV war over this, but Muslims are of the opinion that they do in fact practice dowry, with the gender roles reversed. Rearden Metal 05:27, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

When the gender roles are reversed, it's called dower. Which is another article. Goldfritha 21:12, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

There's a reason why people keep trying to add the Islamic (reverse gender roles) definition of dowry to this article. Simply put, it belongs here! Dictionary.com supports this usage too: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/dowry "Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary - Dowry (mohar; i.e., price paid for a wife, Gen. 34:12; Ex. 22:17; 1 Sam. 18:25), a nuptial present; some gift, as a sum of money, which the bridegroom offers to the father of his bride as a satisfaction before he can receive her. Jacob had no dowry to give for his wife, but he gave his services (Gen. 29:18; 30:20; 34:12)." Rearden Metal 18:31, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

To which the problems are:
  1. You cite one reference, while six others agree that dowry is what the bride bringsg
  2. The reference you cite is specialized and may indicate only the meaning for a special purpose
  3. Most important, what the Muslims practice is the groom giving the bride property, while the definition you cite is the groom giving the bride's family property -- in other words, the practice of brideprice. Which the Muslims do not practice Goldfritha 18:43, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reverse Dowry in South Africa?

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0368-4016(192504)24%3A95%3C213%3ATTTOSA%3E2.0.CO%3B2-S

check out this link, it seems to be saying that in south africa the dowry is paid by the husbands family to the wifes

Yes, it appears to. The term has not always been used with the precision we could wish for -- but it's describing bride price. Goldfritha 23:22, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tradition in North America

This article is sorely lacking on information about dowry tradition in the United States that existed and still does in some areas. Nodekeeper 14:56, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Question about Indian Dowry practices?

Why was most of the information in this section removed as OR? While one could make the argument that it was over pro-bride, the current version reads as completely pro-groom.

Unless someone can come up with a good reason for keeping it out, I'm going to restore the material. It jives with other articles I've read about the practice in India (which I'll try to find references for). The view needs to be a bit more balanced. Ggugvunt 19:21, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Geocities?

I noticed that a significant portion of the article on the practice of dowries in India used a geocities website entitled 'Indian Fascism' (http://www.geocities.com/indiafas/) as the sole support. Aren't there better, or in the very least, unbiased, academic sites or papers that could be used as support?

User:nightcavern (UTC)

you're correct Nightcavern - that geocities site is not a reliable source and is not good enough as a reference for wikipedia (there is a detailed description on WP:RS about why sites like that one are not acceptable) The content you removed needs a better source but as far as I can see there's nothing exceptional about what it is claiming so a source should be easily found--Cailil talk 18:33, 11 December 2007 (UTC)