Talk:Down syndrome/Archive 5

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Life Expectancy

Wanted to check life expectancy of people with Down's syndrome, but did not find anything in the article. I did, however, find this: http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s510389.htm

This article states that life expectancy has risen from about 25 in the early 1980s to about 49 in the present. Would someone care to incorporate this into the article? I would do it myself, but just didn't dare touch a featured article! :-) SindreF 23:53, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

This is actually covered in the "Health" section—actually, a New Scientist citation of this exact article, if I'm not mistaken :) Fvasconcellos 01:00, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

For life expectancy see bottom of page: (removed link to page that will not release browser)(Pollinator 03:59, 23 March 2007 (UTC)) 24.182.255.107 03:52, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Somebody please fix and lock this because of vandalism

Ive noticed some extremely childish vandalism on the "classifications" on the right side, it says "DUHH A CHILDREN WHY DUH DOWN SYNDROM DUHHH *DROOL*." Please, lock this

I've reverted this page to undo vandilism, someone made the whole page read simply "george bush." Who ever did this needs to get a life.--Marvuglia 04:23, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I've requested temporary semi-protection on this article. --apers0n 07:35, 5 December 2006 (UTC)


Also someone has vandalised the part on genetics

This is still being regularly vandalised - can edits be limited to registered users as most of the random edits are anonymous? Shinji nishizono 15:04, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Yay!

I would just like to congradulate Ted and the contributing writers for a truly excellent article, in my very humble opionion. It is everything wikipedia should be. Good luck on getting featured!

One tiny criticism/ questio: why that first picture? I find the idea of ANY child at that age hammering a nail- seemingly alone- somewhat disturbing. In an article on a mental disability, it's even more jarring, especially since it's the first thing the reader sees. Perhaps it could be replaced with a more generic photo of a child playing or reading. Singlewordedpoem 05:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

How about this picture on the right? It shows most of the physical characteristics of down syndrome. --WS 20:02, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
The picture you shared seems more like a caricature. I think an actual photograph is preferable. Jeannedb 18:30, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Some comments. The first is this is a drill, not a hammer. Second, how old do you think the child is? While not using a drill, a common Montessori work for 3-6 year olds is to hammer nails into a stump. The child in the picture seems to be older than that. It helps to develop fine motor skills -- something that many children with Down syndrome need to work on. I've seen a few children with Down syndrome use that activity and eventually master it. I believe the child in the picture is using the drill as an electric screwdriver to assemble a bookcase. Overkill on the drill, but it is certainly age-appropriate. Personally, I prefer real pictures, unless it is to help point out some physical features. The picture is the son of an early contributor, so has a Wiki-connection. TedTalk/Contributions 20:29, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Mia Peterson - Down syndrome advocate testifying before U.S. Senate
Mia Peterson - Down syndrome advocate testifying before U.S. Senate
I personally couldn't care less about the picture - seems fine to me and I'm a pediatrician with a stake in child safety. However, the issue has been brought up several times so it is worth addressing. I have found an image of Mia Peterson, an individual with DS who is an advocate and success story. It's a little small and I could probably make it look a little nicer if I were home with photoshop. I personally don't care, but it's just another image to offer InvictaHOG 21:18, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Good point about it coming up more than once. Other eponymous diseases use a picture of the named person (see, for example, Huntington's disease). I've not found a public domain picture yet. I prefer a more personal touch, but I'm not set against any good picture. TedTalk/Contributions 23:15, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
You're welcome to use one of the photos of my son from my webpage.Lleshin 14:30, 18 August 2006 (UTC)lleshin
Thanks, but Wikipedia is very cautious about using pictures from websites. I cannot add the picture, since I don't have the right. It is actually very easy to add pictures -- I've done several of various diagrams and such.
  1. Go to the page Special:Upload
  2. Browse for the file on your computer
  3. Give it a Wiki-name (lower case except for first letter and proper names)
  4. Give a short description, including the source. Mine say something like "picture taken by me"
  5. Licensing. This is the hard one. A separate picture from the website is much better, since it has no copyright attached to it. For those I choose GFDL (self made) or you created this yourself and release it to the public domain. Once the image is uploaded, it can be referenced in any article or talk page. TedTalk/Contributions 15:04, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

What is it with people and the picture of the kid doing woodworking? I think it's beautiful. And it shows somebody with Down Syndrome going about his business and not as if he's just a pathology specimen. ChristinaDunigan 21:12, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Strengths?

Surprised that there is no mention of people with Down syndrome, in general, having friendly and warm personalities. This isn't the best source in the world, but could be a start: mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=doc&id=10332&cn=208

"Just like mental retardation in general, Down syndrome is associated with a broad spectrum of intellectual and adaptive functioning. Each Down case is unique. Some individuals function quite well and demonstrate relatively good social skills, while others face profound challenges in social and intellectual situations. The Down population has a widespread reputation for possessing friendly and loving temperaments. They often express affection openly and are very endearing to other people."

I'd like to see this mentioned not just because it's (evidently) true, but because it's harmful to people with Down syndrome (and indeed any neurological atypicality) to focus excessively on those differences that are maladaptive. Being friendly and warm isn't just "naivete" -- see The Onion for a satire on that sort of thinking. regards, Jim Butler(talk) 07:10, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I assume it's not mentioned because, while many people with Down's Syndrome may be "warm and friendly", the characteristic of being "warm and friendly" is a characteristic of humans (and many other animals, for that matter), rather than a characteristic that is in any way specific to Down's Syndrome. Hence, it has no real relevance to an encyclopedia article describing the syndrome. JDS2005 07:15, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
So the source I just cited is simply wrong? Jim Butler(talk) 07:19, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm not saying it's WRONG, I'm just saying that it's not really relevant for an encyclopedia article about the syndrome. It's certainly nice that a lot of people with Down's Syndrome are happy and well adjusted, but a friendly smile doesn't come from a third Chromosome 21, which is the subject of this article. It would be an appropriate subject for a non-encyclopedia article, something like "Living with Down's Syndrome" or that sort of thing.
Now if you had a source that said "Down's Syndrome causes warmth and friendliness," (even better if it had a well-described mechanism), it would be an entirely different situation. JDS2005 07:34 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Cause isn't the issue, correlation is; and no proposed mechanism is necessary if it's an observable phenomenon. Genes certainly do correlate with temperament in other genetic syndromes such as Williams ("overly friendly personality")[1] and Angelman (aka "happy puppet syndrome")[2]. I don't know enough about Down to know whether any supposed temperamental difference is really intersubjectively verifiable. Maybe it's just one of those things where people are projecting based on Down kids' facial morphology appearing more "baby-face"-like. Jim Butler(talk) 07:48, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Here's a study suggesting a behavioral phenotype[3] -- more along the lines of "less disruptive" than "warm", though. Jim Butler(talk) 07:51, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I wasn't saying that mechanism is NECESSARY, I was just saying that it would be better. However, the first article you linked didn't really suggest any correlation at all, but merely a popular notion associating "warmth and friendliness" with Down's Syndrome. While it certainly may be true that any number of people with Down's Syndrome are warm and friendly, it's not relevant for an encyclopedia article until there is scholarly work demonstrating that correlation. While that study you linked isn't the same as "warmth and friendliness", it's exactly the sort of thing that SHOULD go in an encyclopedia article, possibly not as hard fact (one single study is never conclusive proof of anything), but definitely as legitimate evidence that should be presented to readers. JDS2005 08:05, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I oppose the introduction of anecdote to an article which has been carefully reviewed by medical authors for accuracy: if you can find a PMID source which references that as peer reviewed *fact* enjoying widespread medical consensus, then it should be introduced. Please see WP:MEDMOS; mentalhelp.net isn't the highest quality source, and that is anecdote which, to my knowledge, is unfounded. I also agree that it's not relevant to an encyclopedic article, unless there is solid peer-reviewed and published medical evidence which enjoys widespread medical consensus (to my knowledge, that anecodate doesn't). Sandy (Talk) 10:25, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Under NPOV, a scientific view doesn't have to represent widespread consensus in order to be included; it simply has to be a sig POV and not a tiny minority one. Such views wouldn't be presented as "fact", but simply as what they are: conclusions some scientists have drawn based on their examination of evidence. Here's an example[4] of such a peer-reviewed sec source regarding Down and personality. The picture appears to be more complicated than the "warm" stereotype, but as the abstract says: "Young children with Down syndrome show a general profile of delays in the development of instrumental thinking coupled with emerging relative strengths in social-emotional functioning." They use the latter to compensate for the former. --Jim Butler(talk) 02:32, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Have you read the full text of that study, including methodology and discussion? Do you know the sample and methodology? Do you know the study shortcomings and limitations? Was it a controlled study on a large sample, or a case study, for example? Do you know how broadly the results can be interpreted? Without reading the full study, and putting it into the context of supporting or refuting studies, it's hard to know how to interpret or what context to give to the abstract. You can find a study on PubMed that says just about anything - the question is context, and how to present the results accurately and responsibly. That abstract doesn't give me enough to be able to say anything that I can be sure is accurate. Sandy (Talk) 03:05, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Sandy, I don't know how controversial the idea of a behavioral phenotype in Down is, or what the parameters of the putative phenotype are. The issue does appear to be at least of historical interest, and a matter of some debate in the literature today. Dr Down himself suggested that a behavioral phenotype existed, and included exceptional humor and amiability[5], though not all of his ideas bore out:
  • "The first use of such a concept was by Langdon Down in his original description of individuals with Down syndrome. He described a characteristic profile of personality traits. These included strong powers of imitation, a lively sense of humour and the ridiculous, obstinacy and amiability. His proposal has received substantial criticism over the years, not least because of the wide variability in personality profiles witnessed in people who have Down syndrome, just as in the general population. But recent research has supported the notion that there is a greater similarity personality and temperament-wise between people with Down syndrome than would be expected by chance."
Here's a reference[6] challenging the happy/placid stereotype:
  • "The stereotype of people with DS as happy, placid individuals with a gift for mimicry is not borne out by recent behavioural research. "Stubbornness" and obsessional features seem to be over-represented, and many people with DS react adversely in situations involving conflict."
Regarding the review I mentioned above (by D. Fidler), I haven't read the original, but here's a PDF link to a book chapter[7] by the same author covering the same territory. That reference says:
  • "It is argued here that some aspects of the Down syndrome behavioral phenotype are already emerging in infants and toddlers, including emerging relative strengths in some aspects of visual processing, receptive language and nonverbal social functioning, and relative weaknesses in gross motor skills and expressive language skills."
Given the above, it may be reasonable to say something along the lines of what Down originally thought about a behavioral phenotype in Down, and then cite more current research/opinion. Editors more familiar with the subject should have an idea as to where Fidler's view (and that of Collacott et al. cited above[8]) falls relative to other sci views. thx, Jim Butler(talk) 08:04, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
I would be in favor of someone who knows the field well writing up a summary of the issue, but I wouldn't support one of us who isn't very well versed in DS adding something without 1) having read the full text of the studies, and 2) putting it into the broader context of refuting and supporting studies, strength of each study, and medical consensus. I agree that a DS-knowledgeable editor should be able to write something based on the sources listed above, but let's be sure it's an accurate reflection of all published literature, and not based on the abstracts we're able to come up with - I don't even know what is viewed as the best Review article in the field, as I do know, for instance, with TS. I urge that we add something after someone knowledgeable shows up to help, and I just don't know what became of TedE, who mostly authored the FA of this article. Sandy (Talk) 15:08, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
I think that's a good ending point, Sandy, but too stringent for a starting point. I appreciate the high standards you advocate, but they go beyond WP:BOLD, WP:NPOV and WP:VER. We don't want to let the perfect be the enemy of the good. If everyone were as cautious as you advocate, then stuff wouldn't get added to articles at all. There are plenty of scientific questions where widespread consensus doesn't exist, and fields where there is no single "best" review article.
I'm not suggesting putting in my original miconception of Down people having a particular tendency to warmth and friendliness, but rather the stuff I dug up about some scientists believing that a particular behavioral phenotype exists, and what its parameters may be. This can be added without misrepresenting it as consensus. There's enough there to provide a good starting point for more knowledgeable editors to build on and contextualize, and add any opposing POV's. I agree with User JDS2005 that V RS material ought to go in articles, because by putting it there, it will not only inform readers, but attract productive edits. best regards, Jim Butler(talk) 02:31, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
If you, me, someone hasn't read the full study, and other refuting or validating studies, and can't put the info in the broader context, how do you assess whether you are giving undue weight? Sandy (Talk) 02:44, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::::It depends on the issue, the evidence and how editors frame it. Saying some scientists are studying the existence of a phenomenon and that it remains controversial isn't undue weight unless the idea that that thing exists is a tiny minority view, which the Pubmed stuff above plainly isn't. Jim Butler(talk) 03:03, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Agree with Sandy. Popular (mis)conceptions should not be included, unless they are backed up by hard evidence. It might seem a nice thing to say, but doesn't help the parent of a "difficult" child if everyone expects them to be angels. Colin°Talk 12:04, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I think that while many kids with DS are very "sweet and loving", so too are most young kids in general. However, anyone who has ever gotten to know a youngster with DS will know that they are just like other kids, they have tantrums, they can be moody, stubborn seems to come in triplicate, and generally they are just like us. The problem with labeling any group of people anything from "sweet and loving" to "angry and violent" is that we are buying into presumptions, rather than seeing the individual as just that...individual. I would prefer that people who meet my daughter have no preconceptions about who she is based on what they think they know about DS. Allowing her own personality to speak for itself is the safest bet. Sure, she may be sweet and gentle sometimes, (she is) but she has moments just like anyone else when she is no fun to be around, demanding, sullen, or irritated....shes human. I like to remind people that labeling kids with DS as "lovable oafs" is no different than proclaiming all people of color as athleticly gifted. It is a generalization, when what all we human beings want is to be seen as the individuals that we are. Mome23kjnc 23:00, 11 January 2007 (UTC) It would be interesting to ask people with DS what they think about the main Wiki page for humans. they would probably say that humans are irrational, agressive, inexplicable and violent creatures who still have some way to go before they can graduate into the realm of civilisation by evolving an improved genetic structure. People with DS simply dont start wars or torture people, and yes, they are, mostly, harmless and friendly, like most of the rest of us, but that isnt very encylopaedic! Words like "naivete" and "friendly" are POV judgemental pseudoscientific claptrap, not based on any acceptable wisdom or research, and have no place in an objective and scholarly article. Let's get the medical academics who make money by putting people into boxes of their own making off our back - they have an agenda and it isn't always declared, good or right, and likewise with the sentimentalists and do-gooders. My own son Jordan (pictured with the electric screwdriver) is perfectly capable of real, serious mischief, and needs the same degree of parental supervision and control as any other 12 year old boy Excalibur 22:20, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

u all are being racist

how does the picture drill.jpg shows that the child is having Down syndrome? u making him look bad on the internet he can sue u165.21.155.13 12:15, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Racist? Are you kidding me. What a f*cking dumb@ss

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.17.120.168 (talk) 13:19, 26 January 2007 (UTC).

Errr... Racist? How? He clearly has Down Syndrome, and it doesn't make him look bad. Plus, his parent was the one who uploaded the photo. Sarg 12:59, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
  • This is User:Excalibur's son. He put the picture there and helped write the article. Please calm down. --Bridgecross 14:50, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Neither Down's Syndrome, nor the use of power tools, are a race, so the accusation of racism is completely nonsensical. JDS2005 03:46, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
To me it likes the kid is holding the drill unsafely, regardless of down syndrome. His hand is too close to the chuck as is his face. His hair could get cautght, or a splinter could go into his eye. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.137.231.43 (talk) 09:53, 7 December 2006 (UTC).
Its not a drill, its an electric screwdriver...no splinters, sometimes i wonder why I bother!!!Excalibur 22:27, 21 April 2007 (UTC)


About : Expand medical section see: http://AtlasGeneticsOncology.org/Educ/PolyTri21Eng.html (or maybe to be included at "Down syndrome Classifications and external resources" with OMIM ?
To show that mentally handicapped persons can be artists, you can use if you wish the image (or part of it)from : http://atlasgeneticsoncology.org/Educ/Images/FriendsEng.gif, provided that you cite the source (Courtesy Atlas of Genetics and Cytogenetics in Oncology and Haematology. http://AtlasGeneticsOncology.org)e.g.Image:FriendTri21Paint.gif

Why would we want to show that mentally handicapped people can be artists? No part of the article suggests that mentally handicapped people can't be artists. JDS2005 03:49, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Photograph

What's with the drill?--User:Steven X 13:48, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
What's with the drill?--User:Steven X 13:48, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

The kid is using it to do some sort of woodworking task, obviously. ChristinaDunigan 20:56, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

POV

Can someone knowledgeable about Down syndrome pls check this edit vis-a-vis POV and original research? Sandy (Talk) 16:02, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Looks like some things have been formulated more positive, but the results still seems quite neutral to me.--Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 16:55, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm not entirely comfortable with the changes made there. The changes seem to suggest that impairment is not the norm among people with Down's Syndrome, and mention of speech impairment is outright deleted without explanation. JDS2005 03:52, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Concur with JDS - It seemed an overly optimistic version to me. Sandy (Talk) 15:10, 6 December 2006 (UTC)


I think other than the deletion of the speech matters, it is fine. Generally speaking, people with DS born these days are doing better in life than their older counterparts. Given the better medical care, schooling, social oppostunities, etc, that makes perfect sense. As an example, my daughter is 8, is in a regular 2nd grade classroom where she does just fine, with minor accomadations. She is a Girl Scout, plays on regular teams for sports, reads at age level, has very good friends, and is generally a pretty typical kid. She is not different from many kids with DS out there. It is just that the old myths about DS are hard to break. Many many people with DS are out in the world, doing well, working, driving, marrying, going to college. Of course, there is a huge variability across the spectrum, just as in typical children. But more often than not these days, optimistic fits just fine. Mome23kjnc 00:06, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

First picture (boy with drill)

Ok, I don't know if this is considered OK, but I found it silly that the same issue (the first picture on the page) was discussed at three places (at least) on the same page, so I moved them all together so the discussion can be unified. I hope it's good. /skagedal... 20:23, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Original heading: First picture

I realize the first picture is GFDL and is preferable to using a fair use picture, but honestly, is that the best picture that can be used? It doesn't really identify the subject (Down syndrome) at all. --- RockMFR 01:52, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

What picture would be good to illustrate it? I think the picture of the Down syndrome karyotype will be good personallyBorisblue 02:08, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I think these pictures on the Turkish edition are some how better than the current http://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resim:Downsyndr2.jpg and http://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resim:Downbaby.jpg. If no one objects, I will replace that current image with one of these images. xeryus 02:21, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I object. The editor who brought the article to featured status has not been online today, and I don't see the need to change the picture that passed FAC without a full discussion. I don't know his reasoning for choosing the picture he chose, but I don't see any big reason to change it in a hurry, either. If others agree, it can be done later. Sandy (Talk) 02:24, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
OK then, let me correct my position on this change as a suggestion. And of course, I respect the editor. xeryus 02:30, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Those pictures do demonstrate the condition better than the current image. I would support changing it. It's not a big deal to change a picture once it's on the main page- a lot of articles improve dramatically on their featured day. Nobody "owns" an article on wikipedia, so it's not really that big a deal: and I'm sure the original editor will be the person most pleased if an improved image is usedBorisblue 02:32, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I didn't mean to imply the original editor "owned" the article, or that his opinion counted more than others, just that there is no hurry, and consensus should be developed to change an image. If others prefer those images, no problem from me ... Sandy (Talk) 02:53, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I just checked, and TedE hasn't been around for a month, so I support you changing the image to your choice. I'm surprised he's not around, after he put so much into the article, but that's that. Looks like the vandalism is under control, I'm calling it a day here. Regards, Sandy (Talk) 03:16, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I take it that there's a consensus here to change? Any objections? Borisblue 03:18, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Wait... hold on- according to the discussion at talk:main page the copyright isn't acceptable. Is there even any evidence that these children really do have down syndrome? Borisblue 03:21, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Well, yea, that's why I thought TedE should be consulted and there should be no hurry to change while on the main page - careful consideration goes into images during the FAC process, including examination of copyright status. I also seem to recall (but can't find messages) that people discussed showing accomplishments, rather than just a pretty image. Sandy (Talk) 10:03, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
The boy-with-drill picture has been around a long time, and debated several times. It is the son of an early editor of this article. I like it. It isn't irreplacable but I agree with Sandy that there is no rush. Colin°Talk 12:01, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Original heading: pictures

I think this article could use a couple of pictures to demonstrate the physical characteristics typical of Down syndrome. What say? - Che Nuevara 06:05, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

This would certainly improve the article, though I would understand why they would be hard to obtain or accept. There is some concern that pictures of the sufferers shouldn't be on wikipedia, as it would seem as though we were expoiting them. Even the existing pictures have met with some opposition (see Image_talk:Drill.jpg) Borisblue 06:19, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I'd much rather see the "Drill" image replaced by an image of a person with Down's Syndrome whose face is viewed from the front, rather than the side, and hence makes the physical characteristics (widely-spaced eyes, epicanthic folds, spotted eyes, etc) more easily visible. At first glance the child in the picture does not obviously appear to have Down's Syndrome. JDS2005 6:36, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry they're not here to defend or explain, but I believe the original thinking was to include an image which showed accomplishment rather than physical traits. Perhaps an image showing physical traits could be included elsewhere in the article. Sandy (Talk) 10:21, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Why would we want to show accomplishment rather than physical traits? This is an encyclopedia article about Down's Syndrome, so we should try to demonstrate "This is the syndrome", rather than "People who have the syndrome are good". This seems to be a recurring confusion. JDS2005 03:33, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Though I think we should be sensitive to concerns about exploitation, I don't think we want to avoid being oversensitive. The condition is simply a fact, and merely depicting someone who has it should not be seen as a value judgment by Wikipedia against that person. It's not quite the same as having blue eyes, I'll grant you, but the principle is essentially the same. --Saforrest 06:57, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
So long as we do not:
(A) harm the person in the picture, or
(B) profit off of the picture because of the likeness of the person it it
there's really no ethical reason not to use such a picture.
Also, Safforest, when you say "I don't think we want to avoid being oversensitive", don't you mean you DO think we want to avoid being oversensitive? Otherwise your argument doesn't make much sense.JDS2005 07:07, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Right, one too many negations there. The issue with your points A and B is that the photo licensing Wikipedia prefers -- "free" photos in the sense of GFDL or certain kinds of CC licences -- do not come with the strings you'd like to see attached. Because Wikipedia content can be resyndicated anywhere, there's no guarantee that a "free" picture wouldn't some day be used for profit, or be used in a way damaging to the dignity of the original subject. That's the risk we take with every submitted photo. --Saforrest 08:44, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm not exactly talking about legalities here...in fact, I'm not paying any attention to what other people do with the photos in resyndication. I'm just saying there should be no ethical concerns about exploitation so long as WIKIPEDIA does not harm or profit off of the people in the photo. What people do with it afterwards, outside of Wikipedia, is not our concern. JDS2005 03:37, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
A reading of the talk page and archives seems to indicate there have been at least a half-dozen editors with children who have DS. Any one of those could have uploaded a picture. Why do you suppose they haven't? Given the abuse the article has taken over the past several days, I can see why. The picture has been criticized for several months, and yet noone has uploaded a picture of their child. Under those conditions, I'd be very hesitant to use a random picture. Genetics411 05:38, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
You might notice above that Dr. Leshin (a pediatrician who happens to have a son with Down syndrome) offered photos of his own son for this page. You're welcome to use one of the photos of my son from my webpage.Lleshin 14:30, 18 August 2006 (UTC)lleshin <--- That appears in the discussion towards the top of this page. Perhaps he should be taken up on his offer. His web site is http://www.ds-health.com/ Jeannedb 14:00, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Original heading: First picture

What does a boy with a drill have to do with Down syndrome? Maybe a photo representing the syndrome would be better.NapoleonAlanparte 22:30, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Please scan the talk page - it's been discussed here a bunch. Sandy (Talk) 22:31, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Now that this is off the main page, I've found a few possibilities for new pictures. This category of a wee babe is all free enough for us to use. Similarly, this photo is licensed so that it only requires attribution. This photo of the same girl is probably the best I've found because the distinctive features of someone with Downs are clear and she is old enough that she doesn't look like just a baby with a chubby face (which is what some Downs babies look like to me). Your thoughts?--Kchase T 02:29, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
That third link, labelled "Esther", is perfect. It's exactly the sort of thing I called for yesterday. I nominate that one for the first image on the page. JDS2005 04:03, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm glad you're looking for an improved picture, but I'm not enthralled with the photographic quality on either of those. Sandy (Talk) 15:13, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
then put the drill picture further down the page 86.135.214.219 10:54, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
In general, Flickr images can't be used. There is a copyright notice on each page. I don't think it would fall under fair use, and pictures of children may run into other problems without the permission of the parents. While some parents may be flattered to have a picture of their child at the top of the article, others would not be. Genetics411 19:36, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
As Skagedal mentions below, the images I've found can be used. Flickr has lots of images, some of which are fully copyrighted, others of which have non-free Creative Commons licenses, and a few, like the above, that have CC licenses that are free enough for use here. As to the point about parents, I'd be happy to email the poster myself if we get consensus for a particular image.--Kchase T 21:52, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

My opinion: There are some things I like about the current picture. First, I like that the boy is doing something, in this case using a drill. Second, I like the Wikipediaconnection, that it is the son of an early editor of this article. That also has the advantage that there are no copyright or ethical problems. But there is a strong argument for changing it: it doesn't illustrate the topic very well. The facial features of Down syndrome that are so distinguishing do not show very well. A face shot taken from the front would be preferrable, in my opinion. So, to consider the alternatives:

I agree with some wikipedians above that there is no rush to replace the drill picture, but how about contacting the author of the Esther photos, hear how s/he feels about it illustrating the wp article? /skagedal... 20:23, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Oh, i forgot one alternative: Trisomy21_Mia.jpg, Mia Peterson, copyright: PD. Not an excellent picture though, IMHO. /skagedal... 20:34, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I understand the concern about the current image, but I don't feel any of these are good enough. Sandy (Talk) 21:54, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

As the photographer and father of the boy, can I make a few points here? People with DS come in all shapes, colours, sizes, and have a wide range of features. To choose a picture that conforms to a stereotype - for example a short overweight person with a protruding tongue, would be grossy offensive to the very many people with DS who are attractive and look pretty much like everyone else. yes, you can go for a front face shot as opposed to a profile - it doesnt really make much difference. the fact that the boy is doing something - in this case helping with some DIY - is important because people with DS do pretty much everything that you can do - the old "cabbage" stereotype needs to be vigorously challenged. I'm happy to provide a few more pictures if you like, but they wont solve anything - Maybe we should have a whole gallery, but then those exist elswehere - see for example [9] Excalibur

Because we apparently aren't supposed to change the picture without discussing it, which nobody seems to want to even approach, I have edited the caption to read "This child loves to use screwdrivers!" The child in the picture may or may not have downs, we don't know. This also may or may not be a picture from the original creator of the article, a rumour that appears to have appeared as fact without validation from thin air. As such, the caption has been edited to signify that all we can tell is that the child in the picture is enjoying the use of the power tool. Let's focus on what is definite, not rumours or hearsay of somebody claiming to be the father. Truth, my fellow Wikipedians, shall always prevail. Txtimetraveler 03:03, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Is there even any evidence that these children really do have down syndrome? Borisblue

A reading of the talk page and archives seems to indicate there have been at least a half-dozen editors with children who have DS. Any one of those could have uploaded a picture. Why do you suppose they haven't? Given the abuse the article has taken over the past several days, I can see why. The picture has been criticized for several months, and yet noone has uploaded a picture of their child.

The second picture is my daughter, Ciarra, at age 6. She indeed does have DS. There is so much hoopla regarding this picture of the little boy with the drill, which I do not understand. He is likely 8 or 9 yrs old, and like any little boy is learning to use simple tools and help his Dad. I do not get the big deal here. On the other hand, it is true that small minded people seem to target kids with DS by manipulating pictures, etc. It is ridiculous, and unfair, but it happens far more than you realize. I would not be adverse to offering another photo of my daughter, showing facial features, if you think it would help the article. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v602/ciarrasmom/CafePress/CiarraRedCoat.jpg or http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v602/ciarrasmom/CafePress/Cbestbigger.jpg are fairly decent. Im pretty new to this, so maybe someone can add one if they think it works? My vote would be to keep the one of the little boy with the drill, too, as it does show him being a normal little kid. Sorry that was me Mome23kjnc 00:21, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

http://time.blogs.com/daily_dish/2007/01/the_disappearan.html browsing online and found this, it is using the picture from here. Kinda made me think. Mome23kjnc 01:59, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Interesting... I thought they were supposed to give an attribution under the GFDL. --Elipongo (Talk|contribs) 07:23, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

IQ Scores

The article states that

Most individuals with Down syndrome have mental retardation in the mild (IQ 50–70) to moderate (IQ 35–50) range

Can someone either state which IQ index is being used here or alter the descriptors. And IQ of 50 to 70 on the Wechsler IQ scale (which is the most commonly used scale) is extremely low, not mildly impaired. An IQ of 35-50 is quite exceptionally impaired, not moderate. I'm hesitant to change the article in case this is a valid description of a scale that I'm not familiar with, but if people have no objections I'll change the article to the more widely known Wechsler IQ values. Shinji nishizono 22:27, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

As far as I know, the classification being used in the article corresponds to levels used in the DSM-IV:
Borderline Intellectual Functioning IQ 71-84
Mild Mental Retardation IQ 50-55 to ~ 70
Moderate Retardation IQ 35-40 to 50-55
Severe Mental Retardation IQ 20-25 to 35-40
Profound Mental Retardation IQ below 20 or 25
Also as far as I know, the DSM-IV is used almost exclusively in a clinical context, while the Wechsler scale is more widely used in educational settings. I am unsure as to which would be more appropriate for this article; perhaps other editors could join in the discussion. Fvasconcellos 22:40, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Recent addition

I am removing the following paragraph, added to the "Characteristics" section by Jayaprakash parameswaran (talk · contribs) (diff):

clinical features general: hypotonia with tendency to keep mouth open and protrude the tongue,diastasis recti, central nervous system: mental retardation craniofacial: brachycephaly[small anterioposterior diameter],mild microcephaly,with upslanting palpebral fissure,smallnose with low nasal bridge and inner epicanthic folds eyes: speckling of iris[brushfield spots],fine lens field opacities, myopia,nystagmus,squint, blocked tear duct ear: small,hearing loss dentition: hypoplasia,periodontal disease neck :short,chance of atlantoaxial dislocation hands: single transverse crease[simisn creasr], hypoplasia of middlephalanx of fifth finger with clinodactyly[incurving of finger],distal palmar axial triradius,ulnar loop dermal ridge pattern on all digits feet: wide gap between first and 2nd toes,plantar crease between 1st and 2nd toes pelvis:hypoplasia with outward lateral flare of wings, and shallow acetabular angle cardiac: endocardial cushion defect in 40%,venticular septal defect,patent ductus arteriosus are common skin:loose skin of posterior neck hair: often sparse,soft,and fine genetalia small penis and decreased testicular volume,fertilityis rare but reported in females hemopoietic system: increased incidence of acute leukaemia,neonate with downs can develop transient abnormalities in blood [TAM],transient abnormal myelopoiesis references 1.jones:in smiths recognizable pattern of human malformations,pp7-8 2.beherman,kligman, jenson:in nelson text book of pediatrics,pp1696-1697

While sourced, I believe it does not add anything not already present in both the article and/or Health aspects of Down syndrome. If anyone wishes to add it back, please discuss. Thanks, Fvasconcellos 21:16, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. You removed valid info that is not contained in the article. There is nothing wrong with a listing of the physical features that are distinctive. For many years the diagnosis was based on these things and they are a likely "look-up" topic. Furthermore, there is a distinction between "physical features" and "health aspects". How about if I put into decent sentences and re-distribute to the proper sections? alteripse 21:49, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
OK, sorry. IMHO most of the information on this paragraph is indeed already present, and data such as "fertility rare..." and increased incidence of leukemia are already present in the daughter article. Feel free to reformat the paragraph if you think it belongs in the article; it could use some "de-jargonifying" as well. I did not mean to question the validity of the information, I simply felt most of it was redundant. Fvasconcellos 22:01, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Whilst you have a point that not all the information is present in the article, I fully support Fvasconcellos decision to remove it to the talk page for discussion. This was an unformatted dump of the contents of medical textbooks into the first section of a featured article, with no regard to the existing contents. Besides being unreadable, it is also completely useless. There is no indication of major, minor, pathognomonic, common, rare, etc, etc. The life-threatening is intermingled with the the cosmetic. Jargon is unexplained - this isn't the Latin/Greek Wikipedia! It wasn't a "list of physical features", nor are many of them useful for diagnosis.
Please, please do incorporate any missing information. I know you'll do a good job. BTW, whilst there is a distinction between physical features and health aspects, you might find it hard to separate the two in a useful way. Into which would you place a "protruding tongue"? Colin°Talk 22:43, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

DS awareness products

There are some beautiful DS awareness products on the market that I think would be of great interest to folks interested in Down Syndrome. They're intended for use in education and awareness and to help new parents develop realistic expectations of their child, but where would they belong? I don't want to turn Wikipedia into an advertising site but these products are top notch, beautiful, and I'm saying that as somebody with no connection whatsoever to the companies that produce them.

DowniCreations makes breathtaking (albeit expensive!) baby dolls with the physical characteristics of a child with Down Syndrome, and Band of Angels makes beautiful calendars, note cards, keepsake books, and such.

It seems that it would be suitable to mention that organizations produce products to promote social acceptance, to enhance self-esteem of kids with Down Syndrome, and to educate new parents, but where does it fit?ChristinaDunigan 21:03, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

There's already a section such as you describe (Down syndrome#Sociological and cultural aspects), but I don't think the websites you mention would be appropriate additions. --Elipongo (Talk|contribs) 06:54, 9 February 2007 (UTC)


Autism and Down Syndrome

I have read elsewhere that autism maybe common in people with Down Syndrome[10]. I think this is important to mention. Most people have the stereotypical idea that people with Down Syndrome are affectionate and gregarious. This is not always that case and those in particular who are quite withdrawn and behaviourally ridged may be entitled to an autism diagnosis, providing them with tailored support and understanding.

Diamonddavej 18:00, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

I haven't come across this before, an interesting point though. I've heard of a few families where there is an Autistic child and their sibling or close relative has Down's Syndrome, but I've never heard of a anyone with DS and an Autism diagnosis. There may well possibly be a few with Asperger's Syndrome or a related condition though. Natski-asnd8 09:09, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Dual diagnosis of DS & Autism is about 10%Comorbidity of Down Syndrome and Autism also see seminal article by Glenn Vater Diagnosis of Autism in Children With Down Syndrome 24.182.255.107 03:58, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

What is down Syndrome

Hello, My name is Elizabeth Peek and im doing a Project on the effects of down syndrome. and to learn more about down syndrome you can email me at **Email removed to prevent spam** Thank You, Elizabeth Peek —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.63.191.174 (talk) 20:17, 21 February 2007 (UTC).