Talk:Down-low (slang)/Archive 1

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Contents 1 Safer sex 2 Down-Low 3 Definition 4 Definition?? 5 "Bisexuality series" vs plain LGBT box 6 Existence in various cultures 7 gay 8 Why gay identity is not universal

Safer sex

The article mentions fear that men on the down-low are not responding to the safer sex message. AFAIK, the claim on SVU was that these men don't use condoms because that would mean admitting they're gay. If we can find a reliable reference for this, it should be included Nil Einne 14:53, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Down-Low

'Denial' is not just a river in Egypt. Men who have sex with other men are gay.

199.79.10.117 19:59, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Or bi, but basically I agree with you. On another note, I never knew this term had such a connection with sexual activity. I always just used it to mean keep stuff quite, in my case, usually in referance to drug or other illegal activity. 70.146.101.171 04:27, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Definition

At what point did the definition of this term become so synomous with a sexual act or lifestyle that it eclipsed the previous slang meaning of "secret information"? Can anyone verifiably source that this is the more common usage, thus worthy of the primary lead-in?--Isotope23 19:52, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Definition??

I have never even heard of the use of the term "down low" as a reference to homosexuality and was surprised by this page. Here in Northern California it frequently means "secret" or "hidden" but not this way. 65.163.182.226 04:19, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. As said I usually see/hear/use it when refering to illegal activity, especially drugs. Cloaked Dagger 00:11, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

"Bisexuality series" vs plain LGBT box

I just added the new "Bisexuality series" box to this article. BUT I am not married to it and debated for quite a while if it should be there or if this article should be just have the plain older "LGBT" box. Please feel free to disagree with me and change it if consensuses swings in that direction. CyntWorkStuff 00:14, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't agree with it being there. The common knowledge of the down-low is that it occurs among closeted homosexual men. The sexual relations between the closeted gay men and women are merely a cover. This is not to say that there aren't bisexual men on the down-low, but that mostly it is gay men. If they were bisexual it wouldn't matter, because they would be attracted to women and able to maintain a monogamous relationship most of the time. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Revolución (talk • contribs) 02:48, 31 January 2007 (UTC).

"If they were bisexual it wouldn't matter, because they would be attracted to women and able to maintain a monogamous relationship most of the time." <-- um, er, NOT. Please do take the time to learn more about the Bisexual community, before dismissing their lives so lightly. The capability to be attracted to persons of the oppose sex doesn't mean that an individual person will (or should) do that because it is more "convenient". For instance, say that you frequently date dark-haired people, do you think should you be expected to forgo being with the blond-headed person you were in love with because it would be more "socially acceptable"? CyntWorkStuff 03:30, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm not 100% sure if you understand what revolucion is trying to say. If I understand him/her correctly, what he's saying is a bisexual man can be in a monogamous relationship with a woman just as well as a heterosexual man. A bisexual man can also be in a monogamous relationship with a man, just as well a homosexual man. If they choose to be polyamorous, then it's questionable if that has anything to do with their sexual 'orientation' per se. If they choose to be polyamorous while supposedly in a monogamous relationship then I don't personally see this as any different from a homosexual or heterosexual man who does the same thing. If they are bisexual but pretend to be heterosexual and therefore publicly repress the homosexuality aspect of their bisexuality, there are some similarities to homosexual men who pretend to be heterosexual but it's still not quite the same thing IMHO. I don't think this has anything to do with social acceptability. No one is saying that bisexual men should be heterosexual. What we are saying is when bisexual men repress the homosexual aspect of the bisexuality (which is stupid but I can't do anything about it) there's a difference 203.109.240.93 14:30, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

African americans use it to mean hidden sex between two gay partners. I tried to specify this on it's main page however it seems as though it's just considered general american slang. The origins seem ridiculous as well. What's next, is "stank booty" going to be traced back to spanish origins and considered typical american slang? Wikipedia is a joke. They're not to be taken seriously.

Existence in various cultures

This section cites some books and provides a summary of their arguments. I think that the article would be improved if these citations were formalised, either with references to scholarly reviews of the works, or direct quotes from the books. BreathingMeat 02:36, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Clean-up tag has been added. Benjiboi 15:53, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

gay

I don't know. To me, men who have sex with other men is what it means to be gay. People classify themselves so many things but the same essence is still there. If you like to have sex with men, it constitutes being gay. People define being in the "Down-Low" as someone who lives an alternate life who have real realtionship with women and have sex with men on the side. Sounds like a "closeted" case to me of being gay. Just a thought. I just find it interesting that to make themselves "less" gay, they define the expression as someone who participates solely on having sex with men. Isn't that the basic definition of gay? I'm sorry, I'm totally clueless. If I'm on the right track, I think that it's hypocritical to subcategorize a "segment" this way. Gay is gay. Gay people are people, too. They deserve to be respected. Thank you.

Amoung people who are gay, bisexual, lesbian, etc. such terms are generally considered to be ones of self-identification; ie a person is "gay" only if they identify as such. So in that sense, the people the article describes would be straight, or whatever else they might identify as. Their practices could be described as bisexual (as they still have normal relations with women, often their wives). However, using bisexual, gay, homosexual, etc to describe activities is often regarded as an inaccurate use of the words (as it implies the orientation of those involved, when that may be completely wrong). Hope that clarifies some! Mairi 04:53, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)

i don't see how they could identify as anything but bi, really. this strikes me as being a homophobe terrible denial of ones' true feelings and very morally reprehensible, bigoted and hypocritical to be an active bisexual/homosexual and deny it because you don't like gays. Joeyramoney 19:45, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I should add even among researchers, not all men who have sex with men are usually considered gay. While not particular to this case, there are situional cases e.g. in prison where men have sex with men but are not consider gay by many people. Oh and gay usually mean homosexual not bisexual. Therefore a man who is bisexual is not gay even tho he may very well have sex with other men 203.109.240.93 14:17, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Why gay identity is not universal

The concept of homosexuality is recent invention in many respects. It was only with the european enlightenment that scientific study was made of peoples sexual habits and definitions drawn up. Before the eigthteenth century sexual intercourse with another man was mearly an act performed, it was only with the scientific revoloution that performance of the act constituted a subject as homosexual. Sure there were many who we would regard as homosexual, but they didn't have a group identity as such, it was a sexual preference and not a sexuality. The creation of homosexuality as a gender through group identity is a recent social construction. Additionaly, this development is part of European and white american culture. African Americans have entierly different social background regarding conceptions of homosexuality. This is why there is a feeling among some african americans that gay identity is a white social construction and that for them it is not natural to have such a fixed sexuality, they concieve that the performance of homosexual acts does not make them fixed homosexuals. This theoy is drawn in part from the work of Michel Foucault, one of the first queer theorists.

For the sake of the neutral point of view policy:

The term "down low" most likely evolved from the more familiar low-down. In the 1800s, the original low-down was an adjective meaning low and despicable.

EXAMPLE: My ex-boyfriend Ted is a low-down rat!

In the early 20th century, it became the word for inside information that most Americans are familiar with.

EXAMPLE: So Caroline, what's the low-down on Ted? Is he dating anyone new?

In the early nineties, the words were flipped and usually appeared in the phrases on the down-low or keep it on the down-low. With the word reversal came a meaning reversal - from a secret revealed to a secret kept. According to Cassell's Dictionary of Slang, down-low originated among African Americans, though it is now used widely by many groups.

EXAMPLE: I'm planning to slash Ted's tires tonight, but please keep it on the down-low!

While this new term often referred to sex and cheating, as in R. Kelly's song Down Low (Nobody Needs to Know), that infidelity was heterosexual. The newest use of this word is different. Men on the down-low (also on the low, or on the D.L.) are those secretly engaged in homosexual activities while married to or romantically involved with women. Most deny being gay and limit their relationships with men to casual sex. The word is primarily used about African Americans, though there are undoubtedly men of every race who do this. In the 1950s, in the closet described men who kept their homosexuality a secret (whether they were married or not.) This term was used primarily about white men and is still current, though now used more in writing than conversation.

The down-low has been something of a hot topic lately, partly because many believe that these secret sexual encounters are the driving force behind the high rate of HIV infection among African American women. However, it's worth noting that while everyone is talking about it, most of the information is anecdotal and there is no solid evidence that this is a widespread practice. The Center for Disease Control acknowledges that a woman's risk of contracting HIV is increased if her partner is on the down-low, but notes that there are many factors that affect the spread of AIDS.

As for why this phrase has not appeared in many mainstream news stories about New Jersey Gov. James McGreevey's recent confessions, on the down-low is still considered slang. It's therefore unlikely to make it onto the front page of the New York Times anytime soon, except in quotation marks (though the NYT Magazine did an article on the phenomenon last summer.) However, I found "down-low" (in quotations) used in articles about the married governor's admission of his gay affair in the Philadelphia Daily News, MSNBC.com and many other websites, so it has definitely made its way into popular culture. (A. C. Kemp, http://www.slangcity.com/ask_ac_archive/down_low.htm)

Critics ("DL hysteria") should be mentioned. http://www.livingartistgallery.com/article2.htm http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0432,coates,55837,6.html

_______

While the term "down-low" is of African-American origin, similar phenomena can be observed amongst Middle Eastern and South Asian men and amongst lower class whites.

See men who have sex with men... Nil Einne 14:53, 7 January 2006 (UTC)