Talk:Dornier Do 17

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[edit] Typo

I believe there has been a typo on this page. At the article on the Do17-P1 there is a photo identified as a Do19-P1. It seems obvious that the designation should have been Do17-P1 instead.

Welcome to Wikipedia!. If you think there's a typo be bold and change it. Just click on the edit this page link and make the change. You might want to practice in the sandbox first.
Angela 00:10, Sep 11, 2003 (UTC)


[edit] The Lufthansa story is a cover

Do 17, Von Origional Zum Modell (German for "From original to model") says that, like the He-111 and Ju-86, the Do-17 was built with a duality, with an eye to be either transport or a bomber.

Airplane Enthusiast / 30 (1981 issue) is even more start, saying that the effort for a civil version is only to support the cover story.

From Joe Kudrna, maintainer of the Do 17 site listed on the page.

Maury 22:25, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Geez, these are secondary and tertiary sources. Who made up that cover story for what purpose? How was it disproved? (Was it disproved at all, or is it just an "it appears that ..." thing?) An airliner converted into a bomber was violating the Versailles treaty just as clearly as a purpose-built bomber, so why bother with an elaborate cover story involving a named Luftwaffe officer that fails to cover the main point of the issue? If you can, answer in the article, if you can't, at least use NPOV techniques to include both versions. --172.178.206.123 22:56, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
Sorry to say, but the whole story of the genesis of Do 17 is a pure invention. The Air Enthusiast # 30 March/June 1986 (not Airplane Enthusiast, as user Maury writes) gives the true running of. This article is based on an other in three parts, which appeared in German magazine Luftfahrt International 1, 2 and 3/83.

The first sentence of Air Enthusiast, set off in a box, says: "It has been stated and frequently reiterated, that the Do 17 was conceived to meet a Lufthansa requirement for a high-speed mailplane capable of transporting six passengers, and, furthermore, that the first three prototypes were passed to the airline for evaluation, but rejected on the basis of the limited commercial appeal offered by their passenger accomodation. It has also been alleged that the prototypes after their return to Dornier by Lufthansa, languished at the Löwenthal factory until stumbled upon by chance by one Flugkapitän Untucht of Lufthansa, a former Dornier employee, who proposed to the RLM that the aircraft be adapted as a bomber. The researches of Karl Kössler (author of the German article) have proved, that this story is totally fallacious and that Lufthansa's involvement in the Do 17 development was purely peripheral."

And the last sentence of Air Enthusiast's article expresses:

"The editors wish to acknowledge their indebtness to Herr Karl Kössler for his research, published in Luftfahrt International, which clarified the early development history of the Do 17 series."

So I think, that somebody of the many users which had already changed or replaced parts of this Wikipedia article should rewrite it completely on the base of Air Enthusiast, or even better, using the German original. Corrector 12:30 8 November 2005
Ok, I know it's two years later, but here's the problem:
It is stated in the article that the RML sent out specifications with twin rudders in late 1933. It then goes on to claim that actual development started in April 1934.
Does anyone else see the problem here? If they sent out the twin-tail specification in 1933, why did they design it with one tail in 1934? That makes zero sense.
And how would the RLM know they should be ordering a twin-tail version in 1933, if they could not possibly know about the stability issues until much later in 1934? This makes even less sense.
And to top it all off, we also have ample photographic evidence that a single-tail version did indeed fly for Lufthansa. This is a problem. If these aircraft were actually part of a later effort to build a cover story, why the heck would they build a new single-tail version just for this purpose? That seems terribly expensive.
Now I should point out that the Untucht version of the story does fit these very same facts perfectly. The single-tail versions were not an elaborate cover, but really were the prototypes. The twin-tail version was then ordered after the prototypes were test flown. Again, all the documentary evidence suggests that the twin-tail version flew in 1935.
I have to say that I am very very skeptical of the version currently posted in the article. It just doesn't make sense. It is entirely possible this is a minor typo and the RLM requirements were from late 1934, which makes much more sense. But if that is the case, it actually strengthens the Untucht version, as it would be right after he flew it. I am increasingly skeptical that the version we have now is completely accurate.
I really need to see these articles! Maury (talk) 23:18, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Okay Having looked at the article again it is okay and accurate. The Ordnance dept. in ’32 ordered a mail plane which Dornier, Heinkel and Junkers competed to produce. The Do 17 was the designation given to their design which began in August of that year. The first design was a single fin. In March ’33 Milch gave the go-ahead for two production types. At the end of ’33 the RLM changed its mind and ordered a “high speed commercial aircraft with twin tail” capable of carrying “special equipment” – of course this is a requirement for an aircraft that can quickly be modified into a bomber ( I think this is where the mail-plane cover story comes from). The single tail flew in Nov. ’34. In April ’34 Dornier began project definition which involved design of the defensive armament and bomb release equipment – which is a form of development, so the article is accurate to say that development occurred in 1934. It was in 1936 that Untucht came across the Dornier which was largely redundant, and his test flights and favourable reviews reignited the Luftwaffe’s interest in the type and prompted Dornier to modify the tail unit. I'll tweak the language and make it clearer and add a couple more sourcesDapi89 (talk) 01:15, 20 December 2007 (UTC).


Aerodynamically, the twin rudder version would be more stable than a single central rudder of the same surface area. The problem is that the "greenhouse"-style cockpit created a chaotic wash aft, intefering with rudder effectiveness. A smaller, smoother bubble cockpit would have allowed a central rudder but the plan was for more than one person to have a 360 degree view in the aircraft. Also, a taller central rudder would have been able to bite into clean air flow above the line of the existing greenhouse cockpit but would have created more drag. The twin tail solution allows the two rudders to push against the relatively smoother air coming from the wings and engines. This NACA history page has some wind tunnel results that show the loss of rudder effectiveness for various WWII-era cockpit configurations in low-wing aircraft (scroll to the bottom of the page to see the side view drawings). Even with a high-mid wing twin-engine aircraft like the Do 17, I think going from single rudder to twin rudder seems perfectly logical as a developmental step--Dornier was simply solving the stability problem they found. Binksternet (talk) 00:48, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
The new version still has a problem. If the twin-tail was specified because of problems with stability, how would they know this before it flew? Maury (talk) 00:45, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

The answer to that question is that the Do 17V1 was the single tailed aircraft flown in Nov. '34. The twin tail was designed to correct these mistakes-the first flew in May '35. The chronology is out of place and is causing the confusion here, I'll correct these.Dapi89 (talk) 01:27, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

DoneDapi89 (talk) 12:53, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Origin of the Dornier

I have reworked some of its original info as regards to Cpt Untucht and its original purpose as well as adding in the sources that I obtained them from. Dapi89 19:32, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

--Flightsoffancy (talk) 17:00, 9 January 2008 (UTC) Hello all. I am Joe Kudrna, the author of Do-17 research site. and "The Instigator" of this productive discussion.  :) Nice job digging into all of this. From Karl Kössler , IIRC, their was concern of the single tail stability from the start, and I suspect it was being developed as a contingent even before the V1 flew. Unfortunately a lot of history on the early LW has been lost, so its hard.

I only recently started to get serious of contributing to Wiki. I hope to be of great service. Cheers!

Oh, and on the story behind the origin of the 17, I read the book "the history of the LW", and it is obvious that powers where actively building a secret LW from very soon after the end of WW1. See for instance the Do-11/13/23 and Junker aircraft. Something else that strongly disproves the old cover story, no company on earth will spend huge sums of money (in the middle of the Great Depression!) on 3 new aircraft faster then just about anything flying, and then let them sit in a hanger for months gathering dust! I have yet to find where the cover story originated from, but more amazing is how, well, lazy some many book writers are not to go and do some research on the truth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Flightsoffancy (talk • contribs) 17:11, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

With all due respect, Germany developed these aircraft during the "Great depression" because the economy was stablised through re-armament. Dornier was heavily subsidized (as were all aspects of military aviation) by the Nazi goverment to produce such aircraft, so they could afford to leave it gathering dust. The cover story makes sense, it was always a bomber, it was a useful smoke screen to claim it was a high-speed mail plane. Your theory isn't accurate Dapi89 (talk) 00:17, 14 January 2008 (UTC).

Well, Dapi89, you have a point, but even though they could afford it, it still seems odd to have a new airplane gather dust rather then evaluating and testing. Think about this, that pilot who happen to see it, how did he happen to find them, and how come when it was sitting around he could get some lineman to pull it out so he can have a little joyride?

One day someone will find out. (sometimes forget to sign, but not this time) --Flightsoffancy (talk) 04:20, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, in the context of what we do know, I think the answer is not all that complicated. There is nothing odd about the story. You make it sound like the Dornier was not tested at all!! The RLM asked for a twin tailed aircaft, Dornier did not deliver. Instead they produced the Do 17V1, with a single verticle stabiliser. The poor performance of the V1 meant that the Dornier was ignored. Untucht's chance flight, his reputation, and his comments prompted Dornier to redesign the tail unit. This led to the existence of a formidable medium bomber. Let's not forget, the Dornier was tested. It was only left for six months. In 1934-5, at the time of the Do 17 twin tails first flight, the Luftwaffe had its fingers in so many pies that it was not urgent. The Germans had not yet settled on any mass-produced bomber or fighter. These things happen when an air force is being rebuilt, especially with new age aircraft. Dapi89 (talk) 17:23, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Film strip image

I have posted and linked a scan of a film image showing a Do-17z, and it shows the 17z with a 20mm cannon installed. In what way is this not appropriate to this wiki? --Flightsoffancy (talk) 17:40, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

These are the problems I have with the image:
  • Not a single complete frame--it's like an image you might use on a film restoration page
  • Not enough clarity and detail visible to be certain you are seeing a 20mm cannon
  • Not saved from the above problems by being a very interesting (and rare!) moving image
Why not digitize some of the film and share the sequence as an animated gif or snippet of video? At least use one complete frame and zoom in to see more machine and less background. Here's what such a frame might look like--Image:Do17-Kauz1-stitch.jpg. Also, the image (if used) should have Kauz I in the image text and be placed down where the Kauz I variant is mentioned in the article. Binksternet (talk) 00:55, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
I had hoped that 1 image will suffice for several subjects, but it appears that it will not work. I will make 2 or 3 cuts of the film and post them, one as you suggested here. would it be OK if I add an pointer to indicate the 20mm cannon? Will get a new version up in a couple of days.
Oh, and I don't have any method to play the film, just scan a few frames.
BTW, this is not a Kauz, but a regular 17z with the 20mm, to be used on a ground assault mission--Flightsoffancy (talk) 18:56, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Flightsoffancy (talk) 04:24, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Favour" vs. "favor"

I reverted what seems like an unnecessary change.

  1. This is an article about a German (i.e. European) aircraft and the UK is also in Europe (in spite of what certain people think/wish!),
  2. The paragraph is in the context of the Battle of Britain,
  3. "favour" was there first, and
  4. since the MoS states that neither is right/wrong

why change (in view of 1 and 2 above)? ;) --TraceyR (talk) 18:03, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough (also Canada has U) Flightsoffancy (talk) 19:15, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Canada too! I'm impressed! --TraceyR (talk) 21:08, 18 February 2008 (UTC)