Talk:Doris Day

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Contents 1 Cite Sources 2 Gay Icon Project 3 re Marriages 4 German-American 5 Doris Day's birthdate 6 Athletic 7 is doris day still alive? 8 Citations & References

[edit] Cite Sources

Need a source cite on this statement about finances after Melcher died:

She was forced to do a television series to pay off his debts.

The source I have (Leonard Maltin bio) says that her return to financial health was brought about by a favorable settlement from her former attorney as a result of a legal malpractice/breach of fiduciary duty suit.

Two new bio's of Doris Day that may be useful for citations. Below is a link to the radio show where I heard and read online about them: http://www.wnyc.org/shows/lopate/episodes/2007/07/26/segments/82743

[edit] Gay Icon Project

In my effort to merge the now-deleted list from the article Gay icon to the Gay icons category, I have added this page to the category. I engaged in this effort as a "human script", adding everyone from the list to the category, bypassing the fact-checking stage. That is what I am relying on you to do. Please check the article Gay icon and make a judgment as to whether this person or group fits the category. By distributing this task from the regular editors of one article to the regular editors of several articles, I believe that the task of fact-checking this information can be expedited. Thank you very much. Philwelch 20:24, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC).

The song Que Sera Sera is Spanish for What will be will be, and not French as reported in the article

I think this page should be improved, as it jumps too fast from going to Hollywood to suddenly becoming a star. It doesn't explain about her early singing career and jumps to fame.

[edit] re Marriages

Doris Day is listed as having been married five times, the final time to a man listed as a busboy named Otis Washington who later changed his name to Otis Day and began a recording career. According to the posting the marriage ended due to his touring schedule and his inability to see to Doris's "needs". Otis Day is an actor named DeWayne Jessie who now tours under the name Otis Day due to the popularity of the character he portrayed in the film "Animal House".

This item needs a legitimate source citation. The footnote for this item (#3) - an interview with Day in a January 1996 interview in "OK! Magazine" - only mentions a fourth marriage to restaurant owner Barry Comden. And it specifically states that "there has been no sign of another husband" since that fourth marriage. A Google search only brings up the same Wikipedia source. So this item should be considered unsubstantiated until properly sourced. Titan69 22:23, 30 April 2007 (UTC)Titan69

It's bogus. There's nothing that I've found on the web that backs it up. I suspect that the same person has been entering it, but has been entering it from various ip addresses. They have been very persistent; I've counted at least 14 reverts of the Otis Washington busboy paragraph in the last 5 weeks. A cite has been requested several times, which has been ignored. I consider it vandalism. It's not amusing any more. Is there anything more we can do about it? Leon7 18:38, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I think that the whole thing is rather gay! I'll bet that even Doris is having a chuckle over this one.

[edit] German-American

While she does have german ancestory, it does not seem approriate to call her German-American. As mentioned later, it was her grandparents who immigrated, at some point its time to stop prefixing the German. If the article played up the importance of the distinction I would agree with including it there, but other than the information about her grandparents there is nothing to indicate her ancestory played a paticularly important role in her life. And her ancestory is sufficiantly detailed with the grandparents info Monty845 12:22, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Doris Day's birthdate

Ms. Day is known to have been born on 4/3/22. My source is a close friend of one of her former personal secretaries. Many sources list her correct birthdate, one of which is http://www.topsynergy.com/famous/Doris_Day.asp .

Celebrities going by a different birth year doesn't seem so unusual to me. In this case, Ms. Day using a more recent birth year may have very well taken place. Since we have a dispute, I would suggest that you come up with a more authoritative and verifiable source. Although well intentioned, citing a source such as your close friend is not up to WP standards. The web seems to be quite evenly divided between the 2 dates, with a slight bias toward 1924. I would suggest finding and citing a book or magazine article that has researched 1922 vs. 1924 to back you up. In the mean time, let's keep it the way it has traditionally been for years at WP and elsewhere. Leon7 23:48, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Leon,

The Internet source that I cited gave the minute and hour of her birth, which suggests that they researched it. I have not seen any article on "1922 vs. 1924" but it is known that she was born in 1922. The sources that list 1924 are just perpetuating the error. You stated that the Internet sources are evenly divided between 1922 and 1924. I believe this has occurred in recent years. Why do you think some sources would start listing 1922? They had to have a reason for doing so. She was born in 1922; insiders know that and now others are starting to accept it. Sorry for the "dispute" but she was born in 1922.

TPR

Given that the purpose of that website is an astrological chart, it does not necessarily mean that they researched her date of birth using traditionally accepted methods. They provide no source for their information. It may be that they used the technique of Rectification, using the known facts of her life to deduce her date and time of birth, and concluded that 1922 was a much more likely candidate than 1924. That may be fine for astrologers, but it doesn't hold water for mainline historical researchers. -- JackofOz 04:17, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I was informed a few minutes ago (by a Doris Day insider to whom I sent an e-mail) that the book about her coming out next June will give 1922 as her birth year. (Another book about her will be out in October.) She was born in 1922; there is no doubt about it.

In your mind, maybe. Let's wait for the books and see what they say. -- JackofOz

05:44, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't know what the book that is coming out in October will say regarding her birth year. That book is written by one of Doris's former personal secretaries and if I were her I would probably not mention her birth year at all out of respect for her former employer. I was told that the book that is coming out next year will give 1922 as her birth year.

I am not merely expressing an opinion when I state that her birth year is 1922. The following quote is taken from the e-mail I received last night from a woman who wrote the Foreword for the book that is coming out in October: "I am happy to tell you that it is 1922!! That is just one of the shocks that fans will find out when they read David's book due out next June. I've known this since the 1970s!!"

As for my credibility, I am the author of four books and my books are highly regarded. I don't make things up.

• • Other sources that list her birth year correctly as 1922 include the

Songwriters Hall of Fame http://www.songwritershalloffame.org/artist_bio.asp?artistId=72 and the following source: http://www.hastingsentertainment.com/catalog/artist/artist.asp?Ctrb_Id=33344925 . IMDB is not a reliable source of information as I have corrected a few errors for them over the years. For example, they had Vera-Ellen listed at 5-0. Anyone who knows anything at all about her knows that was an obvious error. So I informed them that she was 5-4 and they made the correction.

Nobody is arguing against your personal credibility, and nobody has suggested you're making anything up. That is not the issue. Wikipedia works by citing published reputable sources of information, not by accepting the claims of anonymous persons who assert that they have greater knowledge than we already have. If the book that's coming out in October addresses the issue of her birthdate, it will need to say something rather more substantial than, say, "Doris once told me she was born in 1922". As for the sources that already say she was born in 1922, I have added a note in the article acknowledging that sources differ on the matter. Please do not revert this until it can be incontrovertibly established that 1922 is the correct year. On a side issue, can anyone tell me why we have 2 infoboxes, containing overlapping details? -- JackofOz 05:49, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

This question will not be settled by citing web sites, since they're so divided. You're going to have to cite a book or an article that shows research on 1922 vs. 1924. In the mean time, I quote to you from Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons: "Editors must take particular care adding biographical material about a living person to any Wikipedia page", and from Wikipedia:Verifiability: "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiable" in this context means that any reader should be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source. Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or is likely to be challenged, or it may be removed". You may have to wait for the book. Leon7 05:56, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree. A birth certificate would settle the issue once and for all, regardless of what any secondary source may say. -- JackofOz 05:59, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

• • Look, no one (I hope)will ever make a big issue of "1922 vs. 1924" in a book or article. To do so would be to insult Ms. Day. The correction should be made quietly and with little fanfare. We don't know how the error started. One conjecture is that Warner Brothers confused her birthday with that of Marlon Brando, who was born on 4/3/24. Perhaps she tried to correct the error when she first saw it. We don't know. Obviously if the error wasn't corrected quickly, then it would be difficult to correct it years later without the people involved losing face.

It shouldn't be necessary to produce a birth certificate to convince the two of you that she was born in 1922. I have cited sources that I assume are reputable, which give 1922 as her birth year. They didn't pick 1922 out of the thin air; they must have had a reason for stating that year. There is a well-known magazine that would have a lot to say about this if they dug into their files of many years ago but I am not going to go into that. As I said, the change should be made with little fanfare.

I don't think the two of you would accept 1922 if you saw it in a book and/or were told 1922 is the correct year by people who knew her well at one time. I don't have time for this foolishness. Do you want me to recruit a team of people who know the correct year to "stand guard" here and change the year back to the correct year every time one of you changes it to the wrong year? Don't tempt me.

Look, I think you're entirely missing the point here. It's not about whether I or any other Wikipedia editor personally believes it's one date or the other, or whether we personally believe your claims or not. I am perfectly willing to believe that Doris Day was born in 1922 - but my personal beliefs or anyone else's don't count around here. Whether 1924 or 1922 is the true year is not the fundamental question - it's whether either date is verifiable. Please read Wikipedia:Verifiability for a more detailed discussion of this principle.

If there weren't rules about these matters, a person could add all manner of information (whether true or not) to the article and it would not be questioned. That is, until someone else came along and made equally credible-sounding claims that she was born in 1923, 1925, 1921 or whenever, or that she was descended from Henry VIII and Rasputin. Then there'd be an edit war, and the whole process would very quickly disintegrate. Wikipedia relies for its credibility - hence its very survival - on only using reputable published sources. Where reputable sources disagree on important details, we should note that fact. I've already acknowledged, in the note I added to the article earlier today, that certain sources do indeed say 1922. But the great majority of sources still say 1924, and only a small minority say 1922. This minority includes the ones you refer to above. You "assume they're reputable" - does that mean you assume the vast majority of other sources, that say 1924, are not reputable? Why choose the tiny minority over the great majority? The latter also "didn't pick 1924 out of thin air; they must have had a reason for stating that year". And do the ones who prefer 1922 say why they do so? What is the source of their information? You say you have inside knowledge, from personal emails, friendships with certain people who know Doris Day, etc. Surely you must understand that, with the best will in the world, we can give no status to such claims - I'm not for a moment saying you're lying, but after all you're just an anonymous voice who, for all we know, could be making this up. Do you think that any reputable encyclopedia would accept contributions from an anonymous person whose credentials were whatever he/she said they were? Hardly. Using Wikipedia's principles, which govern everything that goes on here, there is not yet a case to change the date to 1922. Maybe the balance will change down the track when - and if - major sources start to change their dates from 1924 to 1922 (after which a whole swag of minor sources would follow suit). Then, 1922 would get a look in. But not till then. -- JackofOz 10:15, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I think JackofOz is quite right here in saying that the key is verifiability. It's one of the cornerstones on which Wikipedia is built, and without it anyone could add anything to any article and nobody could challenge it. As part of this community's standard procedure, we place great importance on verification in the knowledge that we will therefore get it right most of the time, but obviously not every time. We also acknowledge that if two or more sources contradict each other, we can not simply pick the one we like best or the one that is most persuasive, and run with it. This situation has been dealt with, in some other articles, in the same manner that JackofOz has suggested. Refer to Norma Shearer for a very basic example, and Joan Crawford and Paulette Goddard for examples where census records have been used to reason which of several contradictory sources is likely to be most accurate. (And even with the census records, the other sources have not been rejected out of hand.) The bottom line is that there are reliable sources for both 1922 and 1924 - but at least one of these dates must be wrong. And wouldn't it be funny if it was actually 1923? Rossrs 12:26, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

• • • The "verifiability, not truth" idea is practically a contradiction in terms because reliable sources (that are to contribute the "verifiability") should contain truth. The sources that erroneously list 1924 are not all independent sources of information, as sources of course copy dates and other information from other sources. Certainly the same will likely happen as more sources begin listing 1922 but the first one or two sources to do so obviously must have had a reason for listing 1922. If a source is going to break from tradition and list conflicting information, then it stands to reason that they would check their info carefully as they should expect people to ask them why they are listing 1922 instead of 1924.

If Wikipedia is to attain the stature of any prominent encyclopedia, then truth must be published, not errors that are perpetuated. The words of anyone who knows/knew Doris Day obviously should receive greater weight than sources like IMDB that are known to contain errors, one of which I mentioned previously.

There are various fans who refuse to believe that Doris Day was born in 1922 instead of 1924 and will turn a deaf ear to any substantive arguments that favor 1922. She was born in 1922, not 1924 (or 1923, Rossrs).

The footnote indicated at the beginning of the article alerts readers, without even reading the footnote, that 1924 is not well-accepted. So I suppose that is a suitable compromise, but the number of sources that list 1924 versus the number of sources that list 1922 is not an indicator of which year is correct. (And it appears as though more sources are beginning to list 1922.)

I am certainly not trying to denigrate her in any way. I corresponded with her in 1995 (when I was residing in Australia, Oz and Rossrs) and I have sent her a birthday card and/or Christmas card almost every year since then. Discovering that she was born in 1922 in no way detracts from her extremely impressive body of work, both on and off the stage. However, information about her or any other very public figure in any media form should be based on truth.***

If the sites that changed from 1924 to 1922 "checked their information carefully" - and I'm not saying they didn't - can you tell us where they did their checking? What documents or other sources did they use to become persuaded that 1922 was the true year? None of the ones I've seen reveal their sources. True, none of the ones that say 1924 reveal their sources either. But we're talking about changing something that most people believe to something that relatively few people believe, so the burden of proof is on the ones advocating the change. Everything you've said so far is, with respect, an assertion based on your claimed association with Doris Day, and an assumption that some unspecified checking must have been done. Is that good enough for proof? I think not. We need to see proof. Think of it like this - it is generally believed that John F Kennedy was born on 29 May 1917; if I asserted that I had some sort of association with him and he told me that he was really born on 29 April 1917, would that qualify me to go around changing the records of his birth in biographies, encyclopedias, etc? Of course not. If I wrote a book about JFK saying he was born in April, would any publisher take me seriously? Of course not. Now, say some record was unearthed that demonstrated he really was born in April, and the long-believed May birth date could be explained, then biographers and publishers might sit up and take note. Until then, they'd laugh at me. I'm not laughing at you, but you must understand how these things work. -- JackofOz 06:14, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

"The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth" - which is the opening sentence on Wikipedia's verifiability policy (WP:V). It's worth reading, and as I mentioned before, it's not designed to be 100% above reproach, but it does allow Wikipedia to function with integrity, in most circumstances. I think we could quite easily talk around in circles here, but as you indicated in your previous message, a compromise is suitable, and sometimes that's the best that can be achieved. I have no reason to doubt that you have been in contact with Doris Day - likewise I have no reason to accept this on your word alone. I mean you no disrespect, but I don't know you any more than you know me, so your assertions shouldn't have any more weight than mine, or anyone else's. There must be a reason - and an original source - for both the 1922 birthdate and the 1924 birthdate. The problem is that we don't know what it is, so we can not examine it. Until we can find something that substantially "proves" (as close as possible anyhow) one year or the other, we should just accept that a compromise is the most appropriate action. I was only half joking about the 1923 year, by the way. A search of 1930 census records shows that that there was no "Doris M. Kappelhoff" but there was a "Doris M. Koppelhoff" living in Ohio at the time and she was born in "abt 1923". [1] Whether this is our "Doris" or an entirely different "Doris", I do not know, but it's not exactly a common name even allowing that the spelling is off. My point is that even the most supposedly reliable of sources can be somewhat muddy. All we can do is our best. Rossrs 07:03, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

• • • Rossrs: Okay, since you brought up the 1930 census, look at

http://www.famousroots.com/2007/03/doris-day-in-1930-census.html That is obviously "our Doris" as it even says so at the top!! The names are simply messed up by some sloppy person as notice that her father's name is even spelled differently from her mother's name. It is well known that Doris's mother was named Alma and that she had a brother, so this is obviously Doris Day. Notice that she was 7 years old in 1930. She could not have been that age in 1930 if she were born in 1924! Unfortunately, if you click on the link, you see a different set of information, which shows that the person who contributed this couldn't get anything right!!!

The points that all of you are making are well-taken, but even with the errors, this does "suggest" that she was born in 1922. Or perhaps she was really born in 1928 as this source http://www.plexoft.com/cgi-bin/D.cgi states. Of course I say that with tongue in cheek. There are more than a few sources that cite 1922; I saw 6 or 7 without even trying to do an exhaustive search.

If someone who worked for Doris came here with the intention of trying to settle this, I suspect that all of you would not believe her unless she could post a copy of Doris's birth certificate. Fortunately Doris doesn't use a computer so she won't see all of this unless somebody unwisely mails her a copy. I know how she feels about the age issue from speaking to someone in California about it.***

You're still trying to convince us, as if we somehow held the only set of keys to the article. This is a waste of your time. What we believe is entirely irrelevant to this whole discussion. -- JackofOz 10:00, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

• • Well, it is one of you who kept changing the year back to the incorrect 1924 every time that I changed it to the correct 1922.

One more time - did you actually read what we said above? Continuing to merely assert that she was born in 1922 - without any proof - is a dead end. What you, I, or anyone happens to privately believe - and what Wikipedia will accept - are two different things. 1922 may ultimately be shown to be correct, but as of now it's not verifiable. If you want to change that situation, then the burden is on you to come up with some verifiable evidence. And that means something of a documentary nature that any of the million-odd Wikipedia editors can examine, not just your claim that someone closely connected to her once told you this is so. Anyone can make such claims - but can they substantiate them? How many more ways do you need me to explain this? (Sorry if I seem a little frustrated; that's because I'm, well, a little frustrated.) -- JackofOz 04:22, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

• • • JackofOz: I have not altered the article after the footnote was added. Let me ask you a few questions. Was 1924 listed as her birth year here after someone produced a copy of her birth certificate? Or was it listed simply because various sources have used that as her birth year? I think we know the answers to those questions. My knowledge of the controversy surrounding her age extends well beyond "what somebody told me". Within the next year or two there will probably be general acceptance, more or less, of 1922 as her birth year as books are published that list that birth year. I will let those authors convince you and the Wikipedia editors of the date.***

I am absolutely willing to be convinced - "que sera sera". So, let's wait for the evidence. No point discussing this any further until then. It's going nowhere. Bye. -- JackofOz 23:01, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I have no problem with it being proved that the birthdate was wrong all these years, but I find it difficult to believe that an 18 year old woman about to go out on the road with a band (and get married soon thereafter) would lie about her age and claim to be 16, since such a claim would only make life more difficult for her. Ann Miller was 13 when she made her film debut and lied about her age to appear older. It boggles the mind to think that Doris Day wanted people to think she was still underage. Just my two cents.Rarmin (talk) 19:54, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

As an addendum to my comments above, I just found a newspaper article in the Long Beach Press-Telegram of April 1, 1951 written by columnist Gene Handsaker (it appeared in other papers as well) in which he interviews Doris Day and states: "The singing actress, born Doris Kappelhoff in Cincinnati, will be 29 this April 3," which make her birthyear 1922. All of the other newspaper articles around that date list her birthyear as 1924 as per her press release. Maybe Handsaker got it from Doris herself? Or it's a typo. Of course, one article can't be taken as gospel but it is interesting... I also found out that the accident that broke her leg was on October 13, 1937 in Hamilton, Ohio, which would have made her 13 or 15. Considering that she was planning to move to Hollywood two weeks later with professional prospects, the latter age does seem more likely. Oh, well. Rarmin (talk) 23:51, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

More contradictions -- the entry says she started singing professionally at 17. Since she first sang under the name Doris Day in 1939, that means she was born in 1922. If she was born in 1924, it should say 15. I'm sure all of this will be resolved within the next month or so.Rarmin (talk) 16:08, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Athletic

{{editprotected}} Hi, I'm working on the Athlete disambiguation page, and I noticed that there's a link in this page, when you'r talking about Doris' third husband, and you say he was "athletic". I think you're using that word as "healthy", not necessarily a sportsperson, so I think you should remove the link. --PeterCantropus 00:47, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Protection is no longer active; feel free to edit the article. Cheers. --MZMcBride 13:06, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] is doris day still alive?

i cant' find out if she is or not. thanks,

sariwynn@yahoo.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.193.189.205 (talk) 04:36, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

That's a stupid question. Of course she is still alive. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.134.127.100 (talk) 18:43, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

And that's quite rude..and spineless as well, since you tossed out "stupid" without signing a name. GBrady (talk) 16:20, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Citations & References

See Wikipedia:Footnotes for an explanation of how to generate footnotes using the <ref(erences/)> tags Nhl4hamilton (talk) 04:32, 1 February 2008 (UTC)