Talk:Doric dialect (Scotland)

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ααFy is iis airtin nae in Doric?/Why is this article not in Doric

Doric:

Am ah ii ainly een fa hinks aat iis page maun be scrievit in ii leid it's spikkin aboot? It nae bein in ii doric ainly maks fowk fa cain ii leid sty oan ii eeswal wye o hinkin, fit is aat its nae a leid avaa.

aasae ah wid likk tae pynt oot aat ii doric eesit here isnae affae braid. Ither fowk maun cain fit like wir leid is. Fan Ah'm syin iis ah maistlit spikkin aboot ii wee poyim ii airtin haes. It eeses 'hoo' fit is a waird fae ii sooth insteid o 'foo', an cain thon's foo wi spikk?

Aye an fit div yi nae hae Wikipedia in Doric fir? -- Anonymous

Wi div hae Wikipedia in Doric. -- Derek Ross | Talk 18:54, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
Hmm. That's a Lowland Scots wikipedia, but there's scanty Doric (north east) on it. --MacRusgail 15:50, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
It's mostly a matter of pronunciation. I was born and bred in the North east so if I were to read it out loud to you, you would realise that it was Doric. But it's maybe not quite so obvious when you are reading it yourself. Paticularly since some of it has been written by folk that don't really know Scots of any kind that well. -- Derek Ross | Talk 16:35, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

English Translation:

Am I the only one thinking this article should be expressed in the language which it describes? It not being in Doric simply makes speakers of the language continue the prodominant mode of thought, which is that it's not a language at all.

also I would like to point out that the Doric used here is not very pure. Other people must know what our language is like. In making the point I am mostly considering the poem used in this article. It uses 'hoo' which is the word in southern Scotland as opposed to 'foo', after all that's 'foo' we speak?

Oh, and why isn't wikipedia available in Doric? -- Anonymous

Haud on, min. In the English Wikipedia, aahin is daen in English. We dinna spik aboot Hindustani in Hindustani an we dinna spik aboot Doric in Doric itherwise the readers widna be able tae work oot fit's fit. Gin ye want tae read aboot Doric in Doric, ye maun read the Scots Wikipedia far aahin is written in Scots an we're nae fashed aboot fit kind o Scots, Doric or Lallans. Sae gang til http://sco.wikipedia.org/ afore ye stairt showin yersel up, compleenin aboot hings fan there's nae need. An dinna blame us for the poem. It wis written by a chiel frae Alford. If they dinna spik Doric there, then far div they ? -- Derek Ross | Talk 18:48, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Doric Scottish

Shouldn't this article be moved to "Doric Scottish"? The Doric dialect is by default a Greek one, hence I don't see why this article should monopolise a loan word. Miskin 01:44, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Plus, Britannica uses "Doric dialect" to refer to the Greek one [1]. Let alone that a Doric dialect survives to the present day (see Tsakonian language. Any good arguments before requesting a move? Miskin 01:50, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, we don't have to ape Britannica in all our topics. A case could certainly be made for disambiguating between the Greek dialect and the Scottish one but there is no reason why either dialect should monopolise a word, loan or otherwise. In my experience, "Doric" is much more commonly used to refer to the Scottish dialect than to the Greek one. However, I accept that, to a professor of Ancient Greek, the opposite is likely to prove true (unless he is William Lorimer of course). Oh, and aren't good arguments ones that we favour, while bad arguments are ones that our opponents favour ? -- Derek Ross | Talk 04:29, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

It's not about aping something, it's about knowing what the most common term is. You can't just invent a term and expect wikipedia to follow it. "Doric" is definitely not more commonly used to refer to Scottish and there are many ways to prove this. Anyway I'm not suggesting that "Doric Greek" should move to 'Doric dialect'. I'm suggesting that Doric Greek should stay as it is, Doric dialect should be renamed to Doric Scottish, and Doric dielect would be a disambiguation page between the two (as in the case of Demotic). Miskin 16:24, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough. Well, "Doric" may well be more commonly used to refer to the Greek dialect but even so "Doric dialect", "The Doric" or just plain "Doric" are still the most common terms used to describe this particular dialect of Scots. "Doric Scottish" appears to be a term that you have invented and, as you point out, you can't just invent a term and expect Wikipedia to follow it. So if we are to move the article away from the title most commonly used to describe it just because that term is even more commonly used to describe something else (which does have a common alternative title), it could be argued that we will create a worse problem than the ambiguous titling problem that we are trying to solve.
Of course disambiguation pages are not the only way to solve that problem. In this case, I would suggest that the simplest way to redirect people who really are looking for the article on the Doric dialect of Greek whould be to add a disamb link at the top of this article, in the same way as has been done for articles such as Jacobitism. -- Derek Ross | Talk 17:13, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

'Doric Scottish' was just an example, I don't know what the language is called. Since "Doric dialect" is a dialect of some language X, then by default it becomes "Doric <X>". Alternatively you should use 'Doric (Scottish)' or 'Doric dialect (Scottish)', this is how disambiguation is made. It doesn't matter what name you'll choose, as long as 'Doric dialect' becomes a disambiguation page between Scottish and Greek. It's just ridiculous to have 'Doric dialect' redirect by default to Scottish, since the authentic Doric Greek dialect is blatantly of much greater importance by all means. Miskin 17:30, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I've been contributing to Wikipedia more or less every day since late 2001, so I think that I've just about got the hang of disambiguation by now, <grin>. However as I said, dismabiguation pages are not the only method for solving the problem nor even the best in all cases. -- Derek Ross | Talk 18:28, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

It's nae "Scottish", it's "Scots". — Anonymous, 14th August 2006

Aye, gin we're spikkin Scots but we're nae. This is the English Wikipedia, sae we'r spikkin English. Oniewey it's "Scotland" noo. I thocht it wis better nor "Scots" an "Scottish". -- Derek Ross | Talk 20:14, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Wh"

Can I ask why someone keeps on changing the "f" spellings to "wh"? "Fit like", not "whit like" is the Doric form. Respelling into some kind of "standard Scots" is is like trying to write it all in RP. --MacRusgail 15:50, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

But surely it's even worse to respell Doric as if it's some variant of "standard English". Doric speakers know that the "wh" spelling is pronounced "f" in Doric and that "ui" is pronounced "ee". They don't need to have Doric spelled using phonetic English "f"s and "ee"s in order to know how to pronounce it and the article points out how to pronounce "wh" and "ui" the Doric way for those who aren't Doric speakers. -- Derek Ross | Talk 19:22, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why call Scots Doric?

Why do we refer to Scots as "Doric" at all? The article suggests an analogy is being made to the contrast between the rural Scots and the urban English or, perhaps, Edinburgh dialects. I have always taken it to be a rather precious way of pointing out the increased prevalence of "a" sounds in some forms of Scots, and relating that to the use of alpha in Doric Greek where Attic Greek might have eta or epsilon. NRPanikker 20:16, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Well whatever the deeper reason might be, Scots speakers in the North East of Scotland will tell you that they are speaking Doric, if you ask what it's called. So at base we call it that because they call it that. Those in other parts of Scotland are more likely to say that they speak Scots (or perhaps Lallans, Orcadian, etc.) Further than that, the article just gives the conventional historical explanation for the use of "Doric" as the name. You're welcome to add other explanations as long as you can find some literature that discusses them so that you can cite it. -- Derek Ross | Talk 06:05, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Dinna fash yersel', Meester Ross. I've just noticed that another user made the same point three years ago. NRPanikker 15:05, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
<Grin>, I winna. It taks a fair bit tae rile me up. Cheers. -- Derek Ross | Talk 23:54, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I think it has to do with the fact that Doric Greek was also a Highland language in origin. The Dorians lived in the mountains before they came to conquer much of mainland Greece, Crete and Sicily. They weren't really restricted in Laconia as the article implies. Miskin 19:13, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Could be. -- Derek Ross | Talk 23:54, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] External Links

The BBC Radio 4 Listen Again page only links to the most recent programme, which is not relevant to the current article.

--Zach Beauvais 10:17, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nae Gweed ataa

Weel ah hink aat es pag' shid be ca'n wir sae ca'd "dialect" ae leid. Hit es nae gweed enouch fur ii scottis folk. Sae gies wir leid baik ye guffy spikkin hooers.

Awa ye gang, ye foul-mou'd gype. It's a dialect o Scots, nae a dialect o English. Hae a keek at Scots language gin ye want oor airticle on the leid. -- Derek Ross | Talk 04:17, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Are ye sure far it comes fae?

a Ken am aboot ti write in english, but ma spoken doric is way better than ma written...

I was always led to believe that doric was germanic, due to the gutteral tones... could be way wrong! I agree that it's a dialect, it's not scots. We are as individuals, scottish or Scots (plural). We speak with a scottish accent and an odd dialect called "Doric".

Bein born and bred N. E. Scotland, it annoys me that many Aberdonian deny this part of their heritage as it sounds "common" or "country", well that should be "yokel" for a kick off! I've learned this from personal experience and frankly, am disappointed. I think you should be proud of your heritage, this is the only part of the world that speaks this particular type of doric and we should try our hardest to maintain it!

So, dis onybody think am richt? Stuartfield should stay Crichie, New Pitsligo should stay Kiack..., yer semmet should ging aneath yer sark, which hopefully was pressed afore ye wint oot o the hoose! It should nae maeter far ye bide of far yer fae, its a' the same!

[edit] Futrets!

Correct me if I'm wrong, 'cause I'm mere half Scot and living in England so didn't want to jump in making corrections before checking, but the article says that 'futret' is wrongly applied to ferrets when it actually means weasel. I was under the impression that it meant anything of that type: weasels, stoats, ferrets, and all manner of similar critters... It's only a tiny point, I know, but it is a particularly wonderful word in a wonderful dialect. :o) - Shrivenzale 18:20, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Being from the North East I would agree with the above, and seeing as how theyre all Mustelids anyway its probably applied to them all The Taste of Monkeys 11:42, 28 August 2007 (UTC)