Talk:Doppelgänger

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Contents

[edit] Earthsea

Earthsea by Ursula K. Le Guin is a well known creation that alludes to the doppelganger with its plot. Perhaps it should be mentioned in the relevant section of the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.126.151.171 (talk) 22:51, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Inclusion of specific pop Cultural References?

While I value the strong academic and scientific status of this article, I propose that a few refences be used when they are relatively well-known and when they ACTUALLY USE THE TERM DOPPELGANGER. Like in Dungeons and Dragons, where it's been used for twp decades or so. Also, I propose that books, films, and shows that use evil doubles extensively without specifically using the name Doppelgänger(not just doubles, and not clones) extensively be ever so briefly mentioned if they are extremely well-known (such as, apparently, Stargate). Also (unless there are some very well known bands or authors) I think albums, books, films, and tv show episodes which use the word Dopplegänger as a title should be summed up in a sentence generalizing on this phenomenon. --RainbowWerewolf (talk) 13:57, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

All of this is dealt with in Doppelgänger (disambiguation) and Doppelgänger (Dungeons & Dragons), as well as List of fictional doppelgängers. Xanthoxyl 12:27, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Good point, but I could easily see how i might read the main article about Dopplegängers and assume that there are no direct cultural references using the same name of "dopplegänger". I think one or two sentences in this article could sum it up nicely and help point the reader towards that direction. I think the use of the word doppelganger in popular culture is significant because it points directly to the original German myth as discussed on this page.--RainbowWerewolf 15:28, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Major revert, May 2007

Several well-meaning editors working at cross-purposes managed to shred this article in late April. I tried to fix it up but in the end I have had to revert to the last usable version from mid-April. This was a last resort and I feel sure that most people comparing the two versions will understand why I did that.

The article is supposed to be about the claimed paranormal phenomenon, NOT about doubles in general, which in English are just plain "doubles". Please put discussion of the literary device in Doubles in fiction or Doubles in film and television. Xanthoxyl 06:36, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Miscellaneous remarks

At least for instances where the accents aren't being done right, shouldn't the spellings be changed to "Doppelganger"? There are numerous mentions of "Doppleganger" which I believe is not correct. Dr Sbaitso 00:51, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

hey this article should clearly specify that this is fantasy/folklore there are no such thing as doppleganger just like there are no vampires and werewolves ! Shodan 30 Dec 2005

Is it necessary to link to role playing games? Most fantasy creatures are found in RPGs, and in many other types of fiction, we don't list them all. 2toise 12:08, 3 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I'm also questioning the necessity of including the christian rock album and the sci-fi film. Who cares if a mediocre album or movie uses the term for its title? ---Anon.

What is meant by "It is not confirmed that seeing one’s doppelgänger is a sign of certain death. That is a myth, yet to be determined." This is (1) a very strangely constructed sentence, and (2) factually incorrect to refer to a "myth" as "yet to be determined." (Will we soon determine if mythical vampires actually fear garlic?)

  • I rewrote this part:

There are a few characteristics of doppelgängers that are commonly accepted. Firstly, they are visible to no one but the person they are an image of. They cast no shadow and no reflection in a mirror or in water. They are also supposed to provide advice to the person they shadow, but this advice could be misleading or malicious. They could also, in rare instances, plant ideas in your mind or appear before friends and relatives, causing confusion. mainly to remove any cofusion about who can see a dopplegänger Paul Tracy 13:12, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Frogus: Editing this page - will remove unneccessary dungeons and dragons information to a new page Doppelgänger_(D&D) and look for some actual content :)

It seems to me that this article needs quite a bit of work. As I understand it, based on other readings, a doppelganger is the experience of seeing a person's double, or encountering your own double, physically: encountering yourself walking down the street for example, or seeing your teacher in two places at once. The Jekyll/Hyde story is not analogous to this; while the novel is certainly an important exploration of the duality of human nature, it's a different experience than the doppelganger experience. Similarly, the neurological phenomenon mentioned in the article is not the same experience; the "shadow twin" experienced there is not experienced as a full physical double encountered in every day life. Underpope 06:09, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Newsvine

As of April 2006, Newsvine.com trademarked the term Doppelganger (sans umlaut marks). I suggest we no longer re-direct this page to doppelgänger.


Well I'm not usre I agree with the the statemnet they are only visible to ones self. When I was younger my mother experienced my double that would open her bed room door wave at her to follow me and wander into the next room. She would always get out of bed to follw me as if I had something to show her and I would no longer be in the living room, but she would find me in my bed fast asleep with no way back to my room once I left the hall into the living room without passing her. After her first experience she would leave the TV on in her room thinking she had dreamt it and she could see better what "it" was in the dark. To her surprise "I" or my other self had returned to her room several other times during the night, but would never respond when she would speak to me. So it kinda freaked me out after she told me what she was experiencing. Whatever it was was identical to me, close enough to fool my mother. I never became seriously ill and am not dead, nor is my mother. I am however Native American and do have several Medicine Men in my family, who currently await "the one" for my generation, so I'd like to hope it was some kind of divine message or something.

[edit] Skeptic

"It is possible that this body can easily be one of Hitler's known doppelgängers, or only one of the rumours about the true end of the dictator". I MEAN, C'MON! "known doppelgangers"? Not only is the author assuming this stuff is real, he is also telling us that Hitler had MORE THAN ONE?

Unsigned, I have heard that Hitler had numerous duplicates, although I have no idea how many, how similar they were, or who did what. Same of course goes for Saddam. On the other hand, I also think the wording you quoted needs help. More research required. — FJ | hello 05:16, May 11, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Body double, Doppelgänger, Look-alike

Recently I posted at WikiProject_Stub_sorting a suggestion to merge these into one article, and later retracted it because I'm not sure this is necessarily the best thing to do. Nevertheless, I still think the three types of person duplicates should be woven together cohesively somehow, even if not into a single article. — FJ | hello 05:23, May 11, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Doppelgänger in literature and film

This section has seriously watered down the scope of Doppelgänger. Frankenstein monsters, Jekyl/Hyde alter-egos, phantom multiple personalities and twin brothers are most certainly not Doppelgängers! All the more reason to try to bring some coherance to Body double, Doppelgänger and Look-alike. — FJ | hello 03:28, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] want to add to list of books about doppelgangers

I wanted to add Charles Williams' novel "Descent into Hell" (1937) to the list of books about doppelgangers, but I am too computer illiterate to figure out the instructions on how to edit a page. There is a Wikipedia page on Charles Williams which should be linked to this reference, if it is added. Can some kind person please do this? Thanks

[edit] 71.33.61.109 20:58, 10 October 2005 (UTC)addition to page

I added Jose Saramago's "O Homem Duplicado" and Charles Williams' "Descent into Hell" to the list of literary doppelgangers. This is the first time I've tried to do this, so I may have not done it properly. Please edit. Thanks. h_wiebelfetzer@yahoo.com

[edit] Response to criticism about inclusion of Dr. Jekyll, Frankenstein

According to Hillel Schwartz (The Culture of the Copy, 1996)Fyodor Dostoyevsky “was writing The Double in 1845… after fifty years of Doppelgangers, during which period European authors transformed the old Scandinavian and Slavic Double from a shape-shifting figure of divine protection to a spectral presentiment of disaster.” Similarly, Andrew Webber, in Doppelganger: Double Visions in German Literature, asserted that "The Doppelganger – innocently realistic in its apparent shape – is thus none the less akin to the monstrosity of such Gothic experiments in the miscreation of subjectivity as those of Jekyll or Frankenstein.” It is my humble opinion that the Doppelganger is both a mythical phenomenon and literary device. Jekyll and Frankenstein represent two examples of the Romantic use of that device. Romantic writers utilized the Doppelganger to discuss the nature and complications of the dual self. These two works illustrate such themes.

The doppelganger is a phenomenon of neurological origin observed only by the subject and not by others present in the environment or elsewhere. Please don't confuse it with paranormal entities or results of waking dreams (another neurological phenomenon) as those originating the Frankenstein story. For similarly related neurological phenomena see nightmare (older meaning) and sleep paralysis. Jclerman 08:14, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
As the unsigned editor above indicates, the article is covering more than just the neurological phenomenon. It would be good to make clear the differences between the neuro phenom and the other uses, but the literary/mythological usages remain valid. Jgm 20:19, 1 December 2005 (UTC
I'd suggest the creation of a separate article, Doubles in literature. The word "doppelgānger", in English, properly refers to the paranormal only. Xanthoxyl 17:11, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unattributed quote

Somewhere, in a parallel universe, your evil twin exists. Identical to you in every physical attribute, its mind is twisted, evil and hell-bent on destruction; it is everything you are not. Occasionally a doppelganger stumbles upon a portal into our universe, and there are many twins living quietly among us, their powers weakened by the Earth. However, if by chance your twin should cross your path and make eye contact with you, his evil will be unleashed.

Who wrote this? It sounds like a quote from a novel. I think the quote could be best used in a different place, but I'd like an attribution, too. SimonFr 16:10, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

I say that it is to be removed or at least moved somewhere else until the source of the phrase is cleared. It's in a really oddball place and seems to be somewhat contradictory. What if the person is evil? Does that make the Doppleganger good? For every "evil" doppleganger tale I hear, I've heard of one where the doppleganger was kind and sweet or at the very least, harmless.

[edit] ghost or ghosts?

i was reading the portuguese version of the article (that reminds me that the link is missing) and there says that the doppelganger is ONE evil spirit that takes the form and etc. but in this article this isn't clear. so, it's one evil spirit that takes lots of forms or there is one to each person?

[edit] Explanation

The explanation of what a doppelganger is could be more clear. I still can't tell what it really is by the article. Is it ethereal? material? How is it different from an evil twin? etc. Does ghostly mean it is a ghost, or merely like one? There are plenty of examples, but this seems odd with a lacking explanation of what one is in the first place.

[edit] literature section

where did someone found doppelgangers in Lord of the Rings?!

[edit] The German word

I think it could be interesting to mention that although the word is adopted from German language, the German word Doppelgänger just means Look-alike. --217.229.113.209 14:36, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I think, in German, Doppelgänger can mean 1) an impersonator who acts without being seen (just talking or writing etc., not necessarily a look-alike) or 2) an impersonator who also looks like that other person (useful, if acting visually :-)) or 3) just a look-alike (without doing something). – Schöne Grüße --Suaheli (talk) 20:34, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Vardøgr

Some years ago I read about a subset of Doppelgängers, called Vardøgrs - literally meaning 'Forerunners', in Swedish or Norweigan, I believe. Apparently they were the equivalent of 'future echoes', where people would appear to perform actions or be in places before they got there - an example given was someone booking into a hotel, then arriving at the hotel the next day and performing the same routine again. I'd like to add a little info about them on here, but I can't find much online at all, nothing on Wikipedia. If anyone else can add some information it might be interesting. Slavedriver 15:17, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

There's a separate article now. Xanthoxyl 17:11, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] DNA thing really a joke?

As stated straight off the Slate webpage (See article here.):

"On the other: the Cypriot Baghdatis, 21, long-haired, charismatic, flashy. Agassi, in the final tournament of his career, seemed to be playing against himself—the 21-year-old, image-is-everything Andre Agassi. Need any more proof that these guys have the same DNA? Hell, they were even wearing different-colored versions of the same shirt."

On the edit history someone named Urutapu said this was a joke? (The edit can be seen here.) I don't think Slate would be lying on this?

I just need some verification because I don't want to start an Edit War..... (someone has a citation?) --AverageAmerican 03:20, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

You can't possibly take the Slate reference literally, can you?!

[edit] correct form of word

I'm putting this in the talk section, instead of editing the article as I am not familiar enough with wikipedia style. Could someone who is look into this?

The problem is the word "doppelganger". The article uses a spelling that is impossible. To clarify: the article uses the spelling "doppelgänger". In English, the word does not have an umlaut, as no words do in English. In German, nouns are capitalized. Thus, the form used is not a word in English or German.

Before anyone flames this, please consider that I care about the English language, but am not familiar with wikistyles. I find it sad that people use foreign loan words when we have an English equivalent. If we borrow words, they should be italicized or set off typographically and include diacritical marks. However, if wikipedia has a different standard, that is fine, just consider this comment an objection to that use of English.

I think that many English-speakers get excited when they get to use foreign punctuation marks or the German Eszett. But if an English word exists we should use it in an English encyclopedia. By all means, include information on the German etymology, such as "doppelganger" coming from the German doppelgänger which means "look-alike".

Finally, to avoid flames about the umalut comment: English words may use a dieresis, but even that is deprecated by most current users (other than "The New Yorker" magazine). Either way, they are not umlauts. Another way of thinking about this is that "ä" is one unit in German and is a vowel that does not exist in English as it not part of our alphabet.

The solution is to replace all instances of the word doppleganger with the English spelling, except for the etymological note, which would would mention the German word (but clearly set off typographically as a foreign word).

Miriam-Webster and Dictionary.com both prefer the spelling given in the Wikipedia article.
Can you provide a source for your argument?
--Suttkus 02:06, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

The English language does permit borrowed letters: e.g. "café", which is rarely spelt "cafe" or italicised. The idea that these letters are "not allowed" and will be confiscated by the Scrabble Police is nonsense. They are only omitted when they are impractical. Xanthoxyl 21:42, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Abraham Lincoln???

Am I the only one who thinks the premonition in the mirror can't exactlly be attributed as a fully blown Doppleganger type phenomenom? I think that story should go under some form of foreshadowing or something. It's doesn't seem to be relevant since it was a reflection of sorts. CharlieP216

If you ask me, Lincoln just over exaggerated when he saw himself in the mirror under some bad lighting. But, meh, it could be true. UnDeRsCoRe 23:55, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Very true, coincidence? Maybe....CharlieP216 12:32, 18 October 2006
Personally, I've never heard this. While I'm no history buff, I'm akin to say that this is likely to have been fabricated by the imagination of some speculating fool post-Lincoln much like people have done with 9/11. I'd say remove it unless someone has a source for it. trucex

[edit] The citation demand in the popular culture section

There's a citation demand on the sentence, "Doppelgängers appear in a variety of science fiction and fantasy works, in which they are a type of shapeshifter that mimics a particular person or species for some typically nefarious reason." Do we really need a citation for this? Pretty much every bit of popular culture I've encounted on Doppelgänger makes the creature out to be malicious. I doubt anyone's actually done a comprehensive literature review on the topic, and while there are certainly non-malicious shape-shifters out there, surely that the vast majority are presented as dangerous (as, indeed, almost everything unusual is) is simply common knowledge. Is keeping the citation demand there justified? --Suttkus 20:05, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Popular culture references too long?

There are way too many "references" in the popular culture list. Now, I'm a type who's actually more okay with "trivia" than most on WP, but this is just ridiculous in length, and many entries are just too random. More generally, I don't think it's verified. For example:

  • Peter Howitt's Sliding Doors (1998), starring Gwyneth Paltrow. The two characters never meet, but their separate lives influence each other.

The article makes it quite clear that this was a case of examining what would have happened in slightly different situations concurrently; they are parallel timelines, which is not the same.

  • John Knowles' novel, A Separate Peace (1959), whose main character, Gene Forrester, is immensely jealous of Phineas (Finny), his roommate, and eventually hurts him and replaces him (note the "Olympics" when Phineas insisted that Gene act as his replacement).

This is just nonsense. There's not even a mistaken identity here.

For actual dopplegangers- evil twins, clones, etc., there may be an argument for keeping some of them. That said, the use of doppleganger for just "mistaken identity" purposes is way too broad a net, and no list can even hope to scratch the surface. SnowFire 04:57, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Cloud Strife of Final Fantasy VII has numerous doppelgangers who explain his past to him when he falls into the life stream. He also lives in the shadow of Zack, the mercenary whome he believes he is.

On second thought, I'm nuking now. When 75% of the references I do know are just wrong in some way, that isn't a good sign for the ones I'm not familiar with. SnowFire 06:41, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What about Kirby?

His copying powers sort of make him a form of a doppelgänger. This is further exploited in the Super Smash Bros series, where he can even attain the host character's headgear. Should Kirby be mentioned in some way? Totema1 18:31, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kingdom Hearts reference?

There is clearly a doppelganger element in the video game Kingdom Hearts, as well as many others, which you might read about #REDIRECT [[<a href="http://www.answers.com/topic/doppelg-nger">here</a>. This should be included in the Fiction section of the artivle ]]

[edit] Two Buffy references?

Maybe we could add two "Buffy, the Vampire Slayer" episodes: "The Wish" (Season 3, Episode 9) and "Doppelgängland" (Season 3, Episode 16). Nancy.Gallant 20:25, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Quick question for the males here: informal poll

Males: does the following statement by Otto Weininger ring true to you?

In his philosophical text entitled Sex and Character, philosopher Otto Weininger writes that: "Or again, consider this: no animal is made afraid by seeing its reflection in a glass, whilst there is no man who could spend his life in a room surrounded with mirrors. Can this fear, the fear of the doppelgänger, (it is notable that women are devoid of this fear; female doppelgängers are not heard of) be explained on Darwinian principles? The word doppelgänger has only to be mentioned to raise a deep dread in the mind of any man. Empirical psychology cannot explain this; it reaches the depths" (Second part: Chapter IX). --Wassermann 15:01, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

So, if you are a male and have just finished reading the above paragraph, does the thought of or reflection upon a doppelgaenger actually leave you filled with an irrational sense of "deep dread" that defies "empirical psychology"? Thanks for any answers...--Wassermann 15:01, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

While I am not male, I must contest against that statement Weininger made (Vine-in-ger, right?). Female dopplegangers exist. Just look at some of the things mentioned in this article! Wilhelmina Will (talk) 08:35, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Well I for one feel like shaking in the corner after reading this article and I'm male. This is the most freaked out I've felt in a long time after reading anything, but then it's proboly because it reminded me of my doppelganger I saw when I was younger.--TailsClock (talk) 09:31, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] more stargate references please

I profoundly regret deleting the references to television's "Stargate" series in the "Literature" section. I would very much like to turn back time on that one, I was being far too hasty.

Also, someone should incorporate into the 'Literature' section that episode of "Friends" where Rachel starts dating a guy that looks just like Ross right after she breaks up with Ross (the FIRST time they break up hahaha).

Hey everybody: I hope you don't care if I BLOW YOUR MINDS!!! That character WAS Ross!!! Don't freak out guys! It was just the same ACTOR as played Ross, playing the PART of that guy. I know it's hard to fathom, but everybody on 'Friends' is just an actor! No seriously, I'm being for real! They're actors!

Anyways, somebody should put that 'Friends' reference in the Literature section. Then they could watch as this page on dopplegranges sets a new standard for encyclopedic excellence.

Also, someone please insert more "Stargate" references into any and every part of this article. I suggest this because a recent scientific survey (citation needed) proved conclusively that no American can comprehend an encyclopedic article (or, for that matter, any type of article) that does not explicitly refer to a specific episode of Stargate.

Lunchboxface 10:02, 28 April 2007 (UTC)



[edit] Otto Weininger

What exactly is the point of the "Otto Weininger" section, such as it is - except that it shows W.'s obvious limitations? "Female doppelgangers are unheard of", "men cannot live surrounded by mirrors" etc. - that's all BS. Unless it's complemented by the appropriate citations, I suggest the section would be best erased.

Corny, isn't it? I'll delete it. Xanthoxyl 10:09, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Where is Goethe?

You know - J. W. Goethe, the famous German poet etc.? His was a very famous account of a doppelgänger. One would expect it to be included in the relevant Wikipedia article.

[edit] New Lincoln Evidence

I think a mention of Lincoln's severe strabismus is completely pertinent to the article, given that such a disorder would have created the instances of doppelgänger observation noted in the mirror opposite. Should this be added? -EarthRise33 17:11, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I'm going to go ahead and add it, having found the medical documentation for it. -EarthRise33 17:13, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Should this one be included?

I don't know what makes a "famous" encounter with a doppelganger, but would this one do? [1] It's the third or fourth one down, under the title "Screaming Doppelganger - Victoria, British Columbia". Wilhelmina Will (talk) 08:40, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Only if there is detailed information which can be attributed to a book or article. Xanthoxyl (talk) 12:45, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Help-info

What do dopplegangers look like?? --81.1.107.234 (talk) 17:21, 29 March 2008 (UTC)