Talk:Doping at the 2007 Tour de France

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Reviewed version: December 26, 2007

Contents

[edit] Riders, leaks

A few topics I wanted to raise up:

1. Of the three cyclists charged with doping, two teams have been asked to resign, yet T-mobile was allowed to remain in the race. Though Sinkewitz was already out, and this was the first case of the three, this is odd given what happened with Astana and Confidis.

2. Another scandal within these scandals is that once again, test results were leaked by L'equipe, for both Vino and Moreni, before any official notice was given. This has happened with most previous doping cases coming out of the French lab. Similarly, rumors of Rasmussan's missed tests only began to surface after he won the yellow jersey, which led to his team and ASO to find out about this (Though I'm not sure the source of that leak is known)

3. Regarding the tone of Rasmussan's section, I'm not claiming his innocence, but has it been proven or admitted that he lied about his whereabouts. I know the NYT source says he first confessed then denied it again, but in the media frenzy that has been swirling around all this, I am somewhat skeptical of this side note in the article. At the very least, maybe find that Italian reference, or perhaps change the tone of the sections to allegations?

I'm not trying to delve (or even suggest) any conspiracy theories, but transparency and due process have been an issue with many of these scandals in the past, and this year scandals seem to be no exception. 69.95.92.143 05:39, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Completing the article

Due to lack of time it's impossible for me to gather all the information regarding the doping scandals of present Tour de France Edition. I hope that all the users interested in this controversial subject help out this article: it's really worth due to the events magnitude.

Mannschaftskapitän 21:19, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

I'll keep an eye on the article, and do what I can. I just heard about Rasmussen, and wow, I'm stunned. It's terrible how his withdrawal cheapens what guys like Contador and Soler were able to accomplish. Nosleep1234 00:40, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Users contributing to the article should remind themselves to keep a clear, objective and rational mind. With a substantial hyping of the allegations by French teams through the French media (AFP) over the leadup days to the Rasmussen final events culminating in several French team protests at the start of Stage 16, I think there may be a worthwhile reason to have a section on the buildup and handling of the affair, as portrayed by the media and commentators. Of course this depends on how thorough the article becomes and whether an insightful section is created. Nioclas 16:51 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Most controversial since 1996?

Off the top of my head, the 1998 Tour was more riddled with scandals, since it was happening while the tour was in progress. The 1996 tour have only come into the light following Riis' confession, and have had nowhere near the same impact. KDLarsen 22:04, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you're right. I just wanted to highlight the fact that Riis confessed his doping just a month before the start of 2007 Tour. It is an incredible coincidence that Riis' declarations were later followed by this saddening doping scandals that we are witnessing today. Besides, there are high possibilities that the top riders of that Tour were doped at the moment as no proper doping controls were operational back there. About the 1998 Tour, yes, it is with no doubt the most controversial competition of the recent years due to the events involving the Festina team. I tried to make it clear in this article but add more info on the matter if you consider it necessary.

Mannschaftskapitän 03:31, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Well most of the allegations of doping in 1996 came to light after the race was done, but I wouldn't say 1996 is "nowhere near" the impact of 1998. In 1996, the top 4 finishers have either admitted to doping, or are/have been in doping scandals, the top 4! The top 3 finishers for the polka dot jersey are/have been in doping scandals. The top points finisher, Zabel, admitted to doping. The white jersey winner, Ullrich, is in a doping scandal. The top two finishing teams, Telekom and Festina, were in doping scandals. Also I'd note that 1996 has been the only tour where the winner has admitted or been found guilty of doping, however it looks likely the 2006 Tour and Floyd Landis will be the 2nd to join that club. If any Tour needs to be striken from the books permanently, it is the 1996 Tour. --Fxer 06:46, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Contador

This shouldn't be in the article - he has not been formally accused of doping this year (title is "Doping at the 2007 Tour de France"), and was officially cleared during Operacion Puerto. His inclusion is somewhat slanderous. -- Sturgeonman 20:46, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. I have commented out his section for now. If references appear, his inclusion can be restored. Flyguy649 talk contribs 20:57, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
The Sinkewitz case didn't involve the 2007 Tour de France either, it was simply a previous doping case that became known during the Tour de France, well after Sinkewitz had left the Tour. It was not a doping case at the Tour de France. But in the case of Contador, he is being scrutinized, particularly by media in France and Germany, for having been on the list of customers of Eufemiano Fuentes. Contador has said that he was on the list for a matter of days or weeks, and only because he was in the wrong team at the wrong time. I feel that Contador should be included in this article as well, although obviously only with references. Because it was unreferenced, it did violate WP:BLP, and commenting it out was the right decision. AecisBrievenbus 21:14, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
The section of Contador speaks of last year, and how the scandals of this year have caused that incident to resurface. How does that violate BLP ? It doesn't accuse him of everything, if at all it shows how he is being treated by the press and his fellow riders --TheDJ (talk • contribs) 22:23, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

http://equipe.fr/Cyclisme/breves2007/20070726_183111Dev.html "I think that Evans would make a better winner of the Tour than Contador. You see Evans suffering in the mountains, one sees the grin. That is not the impression you get with Rasmussen and Contador.” http://www.velonews.com/tour2007/news/articles/12925.0.html --TheDJ (talk • contribs) 22:53, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

And best source of them all: original google translate --TheDJ (talk • contribs) 22:57, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Many journalists and viewers will have suspicion of many riders, and very few riders have never been part of a team that has ever included anyone implicated in a doping case. It seems fundamentally unjust, entirely unencyclopedic, and at least close to libellous, to highlight Contador with a section-heading. I would suggest having a section Other suspicions or similar, in which referenced but unproven suspicions could be collated, without undue highlighting of one individual against whom no case has been proven. Kevin McE 09:36, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Done --TheDJ (talk • contribs) 09:47, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
There's a difference between having been in a team that at some point in time has included someone implicated in a doping case and having been in a team that was found to be a doping swamp. And this year's tour only confirmed that the culture of Liberty Seguros is still well alive -cf. Vinokurov. And it certainly isn't unencyclopedic to keep basic physiology in mind. The fact that some fanboys believe their great heroes to be Superman reborn is not a perspective fit for an encyclopedia. The natural capabilities of a human being have their limitations. As for Contador, the blood clot he suffered certainly raises suspicions that it was not quite so accidental. --84.46.0.152 06:05, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Please do keep WP:NPOV in mind. It is not up to us to decide that the way media have covered Contador's relationship to Fuentes is "without any base whatsoever." AecisBrievenbus 09:59, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

It's hard to do with the current quality of reporting :D I rephrased the statement to "no new facts have surfaced" to better reflect that this is more about the media attention and less about doping. --TheDJ (talk • contribs) 10:09, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
It seems that Bild has found some form of "proof" that Contador was on the Fuentes list. http://www.bild.t-online.de/BTO/sport/2007/07/27/tour-spitzenreiter-contador/medikament-gelbes-trikot,geo=2211452.html Before adding this, i would prefer to see what happens tomorrow and see if any other sources adhere any credibility to this story. --TheDJ (talk • contribs) 20:09, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
The Bild article seems to rely heavily on an article in the Süddeutsche Zeitung, which may be a bit more reliable than Bild itself, so here's the link to the original article: http://www.sueddeutsche.de/sport/weitere/artikel/939/124756/. Blur4760 20:16, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Jörg Jaksche says that Contador was on the doping plan of Liberty Seguros of 2005. The whole team was doping, seems unlikely that only A.C. was not when his initials were on our list next to ours. --TheDJ (talk • contribs) 13:09, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Michael Rasmussen

Michael Rasmussen hasn't been pulled out because of doping. He has been tested 14 times or more during the tour de farce and all of them have been negative. He has been accused by another person who claims that he saw him in italy training of lieing about his whereabouts in mid june. He claims that he was in mexico training. It's one mans word against another man nothing else. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wis (talk • contribs)

He indeed hasn't been pulled out of the Tour for doping, but for lying about his whereabouts. The lying about his whereabouts, however, was related to his (in)availability to out-of-competition doping tests. The allegations are that he gave the wrong information to both his team and the UCI, which meant that they didn't know where to find him to test him. Which is about doping. AecisBrievenbus 21:27, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

The article states "Despite being tested negative for doping before the Tour... " for Rasmussen, but some media reports stated that due to his missing tests, he hadn't been tested in three years. Could someone please verify this? --84.46.0.152 05:57, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vinokourov

I've heard a few tv reports state that Vinokourov tested positive for blood doping after his second victory. I can't find any mention of this in written sources though. Does anyone know whether this is true? AecisBrievenbus 22:08, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

I heard this as well yes. I think it has gotten lost in the whole Rasmussen/Moreni ordeal of yesterday. I'll keep a look out for any such sources. --TheDJ (talk • contribs) 22:25, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
It's said he tested positive after race 15 too [1] Nil Einne 06:03, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Expand with context

We should further expand the article with some of the reactions of the riders in the peloton. The words of Bram Tankink about Sinkowitz and the words of Millar on the Vinokourov case spring to mind as well as of course the "sit in" organized by some of the teams. The media withdrawals etc should perhaps also be treated more extensively in a section of their own. I'm a tad uninspired atm for actual writing, but perhaps someone else feels up to it. --TheDJ (talk • contribs) 14:28, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] more fallout

I'm personally holding back a bit atm before these cases are reported by other sources as well. --TheDJ (talk • contribs) 20:30, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the Bild fragment. Notably, it doesn't say from what document the fragment originates. Obviously, it is not part of the original Spanish dossier (according to the Süddeutsche article, Contador's name is found on document #31 of the Fuentes dossier by the Spanish police). It is no more a proof that Contador was on the list than the article or the original Süddeutsche article are. So I wouldn't put too much emphasis on that nice little graphic. For all we know, Bild may have produced that fragment itself to underline the content of the article. Blur4760 20:41, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
It was just announced on Dutch television that there are some more rumours. They wouldn't yet specify what (to keep viewers curious, obviously), but it will be made public soon. I'm tuned in, and will update the article as soon as more verifiable information becomes known. AecisBrievenbus 20:54, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
May I be so bald as to ask what channel? I would like to tune in. Blur4760 20:59, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
NOS, De Avondetappe. Nederland 1. Aec·is·away talk 21:01, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Btw, you may be bald, but I would prefer if you were bold ;) Aec·is·away talk 21:02, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

A Belgian cycling journalist said on Dutch television yesterday or the day before yesterday that Rabobank team director Theo de Rooij had called Patrick Lefevre, head of the AIGCP, on the first or the second rest day, asking if Lefevre knew anything about Rasmussen that Rabobank had to know, and that the team leaders didn't trust Rasmussen anymore. I'm currently looking for the proper source, and will add it to the article iff I can find and reference it. AecisBrievenbus 00:13, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] ASO breaks with UCI

Should we mention that Christian Prudhomme has said in an interview with the Süddeutsche Zeitung that Tour organisers ASO will break with the UCI in response to the doping cases during this Tour? [2] AecisBrievenbus 21:11, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeah I think we should.. Basically they are declaring the UCI dead, that seems important enough to me. I had forgotten about this thing in my list above :D --TheDJ (talk • contribs) 21:15, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
I totally agree. The doping scandals of present edition Tour have clearly widened the existing gap between ASO and UCI. Another landmark for this Tour. Mannschaftskapitän 23:12, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
If this is included, I think the pre-Tour tensions between ASO and UCI over the ProTour system should be included as well, to place the relations between the two parties in context. AecisBrievenbus 20:21, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

http://www.wielerreport.nl/818/wielernieuws/UCI_haalt_uit_naar_ASO.html Something else we should still write about :D --TheDJ (talk • contribs) 11:49, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Semi-breaking: Soler

The rumour I mentioned above involves Soler and was reported in a Danish newspaper. AecisBrievenbus 21:21, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Found it, here: [3]. AecisBrievenbus 21:23, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
If I understand it correctly, a cyclist has tested positive after the 14th stage, and police are currently raiding the Barloworld hotel. Soler races for Barloworld. AecisBrievenbus 21:24, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
man man man, where does it end...--TheDJ (talk • contribs) 21:37, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

German channel ARD has Soler as a positive doping test as breaking news on its website. AecisBrievenbus 21:52, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

For more, see [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9] and [10]. There will be a press conference at 11am tomorrow. AecisBrievenbus 21:54, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Incredible, you found every source that I wanted to add (and some more...)Blur4760 22:12, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Checking the sources you provided I have not found a specifical or clear "official" declaration on a possible doping by Soler. What I have read are plain rumours which are written as if they were intended exclusively to lessen Soler's achievements or damage his public image. If the fact is really confirmed, of course we will have to open a new sub-section in this article but until now we have to wait for more reliable sources.Mannschaftskapitän 23:09, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
That's exactly the reason why I've not added the information to the article. It is unsubstantiated at the moment, so shouldn't be included per WP:BLP. We have to wait for official confirmation, either during the night or at the press conference mentioned by Het Laatste Nieuws. I don't think this is "intended exclusively to lessen Soler's achievements or damage his public image" though. AecisBrievenbus 23:19, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Can someone keep an eye on the Mauricio Soler page? I've reverted the rumours 4 times (WP:3RR doesn't apply as its BLP), someone else keeping an eye on this would be useful. I don't see why people just can't wait till the morning :S Thanks, SeveroTC 23:24, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
I've raised this issue at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Mauricio Soler and WP:BLP, also for future reference. AecisBrievenbus 23:43, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Sigh! Eurosport is reporting this now, as well. What a terrible year.Bdegroodt 23:55, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

There is nothing true of this story apparently. But we might use some of those sources to show the "craziness" that is going on... --TheDJ (talk • contribs) 11:54, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Timeline

Should we add a timeline to the article, so that we can follow what happened when, which positive test became known when, etc? AecisBrievenbus 22:10, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Response from cyclists

I suggest adding a section about the reactions of Tour cyclists to the doping controversy to this article. There was a strike of a few teams at the start of stage 16, and there is talk of a strike one meter before the finish line tomorrow. We could add some quotes (David Millar and Mark Cavendish IIRC calling for prison sentences for doping offenders, Boonen calling Vinokourov all kinds of bad names, etcetera). AecisBrievenbus 21:57, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

  • It seems to me you've got some good ideas and a good handle on where this article should be going - would suggest you be bold and make the amendments yourself. If they're well sourced and within Wiki guidelines I'm pretty certain the other editors who are monitoring this page and Doping at the Tour de France will back you up! Dick G 03:10, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mayo

Did Mayo actually test positive for synthetic testosterone during the 2007 Giro d'Italia? Was it not just a 'non-positive' for excessive values, for which he has a medical exemption.

[11] and [12] both refer to the results as 'non-negative' and mentions only elevated levels of testosterone, nothing about synthetics. I don't read German too well, but it didn't seem that the article referenced mentioned so either. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Asbjorjo (talk • contribs) 12:22, August 2, 2007.

It was elevated levels of the testosterone:epitestosterone ratio. Mayo is said to have wide fluctuations in his testosterone anyway ([13]) and further tests at a lab in Barcelona showed his testosterone was natural. I've amended the article to reflect this and added an English-language source since I believe the German source doesn't add anything above the English ones available. SeveroTC 12:37, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Contador statement by Hinault

I removed this statement:

"Several participants, like Sébastien Hinault for instance, have implied that Contador is no better than Rasmussen[1]."

I can't read French, but through google translate, it did seem to me that Hinault was implying that Contador was no better than Rasmussen. However, I think that it's too vague - i.e., not encyclopedic - to say that someone "implied" one thing or the other in a Wikipedia article. Can someone who speaks French put this reference back in with a statement that more neutrally indicates what Hinault was explicitly saying? i.e., something like "Hinault indicated that he wanted neither Contador nor Rasmussen to win". Cogswobbletalk 16:50, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

That would be incorrect because it's not what he is saying. He said "He is no better then" that's a judgemental remark, and you cannot make that neutral. --TheDJ (talk • contribs) 18:57, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
But, at least in that citation, Hinault did not say "He is no better than Contador". He said that Evans would be (would have been) a better winner of the Tour than Contador, because it was clear that he was suffering, while the same could not be said for Rasmussen or Contador. By that logic, I would be a far better winner of the tour than any of the previously named, because the suffering would have been even more evident for all to see if I had been cycling up those mountains. Kevin McE 19:14, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

OK, this is just stupid. Either we delete the entire section on Contador and pretend nothing ever happened, or we have weak quotes with a lot of speculation and nothing actual factual and believable in the section. What do you guys want ??????? I tried both ways, people keep nagging. you can't have your cake and eat it at the same time. --TheDJ (talk • contribs) 00:03, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

It seems to me that if somebody made a direct accusation, then that accusation should be accurately reported, or if quote marks are being used, that their words are accurately translated. BLP demands that, otherwise we are wandering into fields of libel. If the original speakers were "discrete" in their choice of words, then they may well have not said anything that amounts to much when reported: we cannot infer to them more than they said, so what they said may not be worth including. However, there is enough there to retain the section. Kevin McE 09:16, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
I think this will become easer with time as well, since either something will become of it, or nothing will at all... SeveroTC 09:45, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
Agreed with Kevin McE. BLP is very strict about not allowing unsourced or improperly sourced statements. Anything else should be aggressively and immediately removed. If someone (like Franke) says "I think Contador used drugs", then it can and will be left in the article. Any vague speculation is not allowed.
My objection to the Hinault statement in this article was that it didn't seem to match exactly what I read in the source (albeit, the translated source). I agree that Hinault was *implying* that Contador is no better than Rasmussen, but unfortunately, he didn't state that explicitly, he only stated that he would prefer that Evans win. Cogswobbletalk 21:23, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
Unfortunately few people do more then "imply" this. However if so many people have made these kinds of comments, then shouldn't we report on that ? Ah nevermind, we will just wait 10 years for someone to write a book about it I guess. I really find it shameful that I am unable to get properly across in this article that there was much commotion in this tour about speculation and fingerpointing. I'm more then familiar with all the guidelines that are used to remove these specific sections from the article, but in my eyes it just proves that sometimes the guidelines and policies simply do not apply. However I do not feel like warring over this, and I feel even less like discussing it for hours and hours to find just the right wording and just the right quotes from all those 100s of sources as not to step on anyones toes. Like I said, books will be written, shifting this problem from wikipedia to the real world and someone will later update it. --TheDJ (talk • contribs) 21:55, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
WP:BLP is pretty clear, unsourced or poorly sourced controversial material must be removed immediately. However, keep in mind that this article already states that journalists have re-examined the Puerto incident, and states explicitly that Franke has accused Contador of using drugs. These things are left in because they are well sourced. If anyone wants to include a specific quote from another source, I have no objections. My problem with the Hinault statement was that it interpreted his actual statements. If Hinault (or anyone else) is only willing to imply something without saying it explicitly, then it's not up to Wikipedia to interpret what they meant. However, if some journalistic source is willing to interpret what they meant, then it's fine to include it here, e.g. "According to the New York Times, many riders suspect Contador was doping." Cogswobbletalk 04:01, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA Review

Sorry, but I do not think that the article reaches the GA criteria at the moment. There are several unsourced statements, and an entire section (Background) without sources. As well, the text could use a copyedit, and there are quite a few one or two sentence paragraphs, so perhaps a few of them could be merged. Good luck addressing the concerns. -- Scorpion0422 20:21, 26 December 2007 (UTC)