User:Doncram/NHLinfo

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Questions and Information Issues regarding National Historic Landmarks

This article describes information system glitches, factual inconsistencies, and factual errors in official information regarding National Historic Landmarks of the United States. It is hoped that this recording may facilitate discussion and corrections. In three batches, a total of 27 items have been reported to the National Park Service, and may be under review.

Contents

[edit] Possible errors in National Historic Landmark summaries

Items reported to the National Register in a batch during December 2007 are as follows. (The report was sent to one office's email address on December 20, and then to a different office on December 27, and the latter was acknowledged on December 28 with a statement that "We will look into" the matters raised.) The items reported (numbered 1-5):

  • Item 1. For the Cleveland Abbe House in Washington, D.C., refnum=69000289, the NHL summary is titled "Kate Choin House". That title appears to be an outright error in the NHL summary listing. The National Register name for the site is Arts Club of Washington. The NRHP Inventory-Nomination document for the house explains both the Abbe name and the Arts Club name, but does not mention "Kate Choin". Note, there is a Kate Chopin House which is a National Historic Landmark in Cloutierville, Louisiana, with refnum 93001601. UPDATE: As of March 2, 2008, the NPS webpage has been updated to show "Abbe, Cleveland House" instead. This remains somewhat ungrammatical / inconsistent with more usual treatment in NHL webpage titles that would be "Abbe, Cleveland, House". For example, "Baker, Newton D., House" is NHL webpage title for another Washington, D.C. house. Definitely progress though!
  • Item 2. For the Robert S. Abbott House in Chicago, Illinois, refnum=76000686, the NHL summary is titled "Fort King Site". This title is possibly an outright error in the NHL summary listing. None of the wikipedia editors of the article List of Chicago Landmarks knew of the Fort King Site name. Is it wrong or could it be a slang name for the house, which is located on an avenue named for Martin Luther King, Jr.? It is NOT the name used for the site in the NPS's PDF listing of NHLs in Illinois. Zagalejo called my attention to discussion on it here. Perhaps it is local slang for the site, not the official NHL name. Or, because it is on the NHL summary, does that make it the official name? The Fort King name is not found in the NRHP Inventory/Nomination document for the site. There is another NHL having the name "Fort King Site", in Ocala, Florida. Since it appears unlikely that the NHL program would give two sites the same name, it appears likely that the Chicago "Fort King Site" is a miss-entry in the NHL summary page. UPDATE: As of March 2, 2008, the NPS webpage has been updated to show "Abbott, Robert S. House" instead. (Also ungrammatical as in the Abbe, Cleveland House case.) Thanks Zagalejo for pointing out that this was updated by the NPS.
  • Item 3. First Church of Christ, in CT is misspelled as first church of "Chirst" in in name of the page and in NHL summary title on the page itself. Spelt correctly in NRIS system.
  • Item 4. Ida Tarbell House, in CT. It is Tarbell, not Tarbel, misspelt in NHL summary. Spelt correctly in NRIS system.
  • Item 5. Rangers' Club, in California. It is Rangers', not Ranger's as it is misspelled in NHL summary. It is spelt correctly in the NRIS system and in the NPS on-line book by Laura Soulliere Harrison.

Possible error items reported to the National Register in a batch on Jan 3, 2008:

  • Item 7. For the Old Quaker Meeting House in Queens, NY, the NHL webpage for the site lists it as "Old Quaker Meetinghouse". There apparently is a big difference, that matters to some people, between Meeting House vs. Meetinghouse, per discussion raised in talk page, and the Quaker usage currently is Meeting House, and would historically have been that. Current usage is shown by the [http://www.nyym.org/flushing/ FLUSHING MONTHLY MEETING

of the Religious Society of Friends (Quakers) webpage] Also, the National Register of Historic Places Inventory/Nomination document for the site, from 1975, uses Old Quaker Meeting House as the name. It seems it should be changed to Old Quaker Meeting House.

  • Item 8c. All the other 48 NHLs in Alaska are similarly misidentified as being in counties, when they are not, in their NHL summaries. Those located in boroughs are probably all identified as being in "counties" of the same name. Those outside of boroughs are also misidentified.

Five error items reported to National Register on January 28 are as follows (numbered 23-27 for consistency with previous two reports sent):

101 Ranch Historic District, which is very incomplete, and Kenne which gives the wrong name for the site but carries content about the site. It seems that the "Kenne" name in the webpage is entirely a typo, as there is no mention of "Kenne" in the 1974 NRHP Inventory-Nomination for the site or in any other available documents. The duplication causes there to be 21 NHL webpages in Oklahoma, while there are only 20 NHLs in the state. It seems the description in the "Kenne" NHL webpage should be transfered to the "101 Ranch Historic District" webpage, and the Kenne webpage should be deleted. UPDATE 3/2/2008. The "Kenne" webpage has been deleted, and now there are just 20 NHL webpages for Oklahoma. 101 Ranch Historic District description is fairly long, so it may have received description from the former Kenne webpage.

  • Item 24. Rosedown Plantation is a NRHP site in Louisiana. Its NHL webpage at http://tps.cr.nps.gov/nhl/detail.cfm?ResourceId=2022880955&ResourceType=District is titled merely "Rosedown" and is mostly blank, lacking the usual date of NHL designation, the usual statement of significance and so on. A photo included on the webpage is labelled "Rosedown Plantation". The National Historic Landmark Nomination for the site gives April 5, 2005 as the NHL designation date, and uses the "Roseland Plantation" name. The NRIS NRHP name for the site is "Rosedown Plantation". It seems that the NHL webpage name should be Rosedown Plantation, and that various material should be added to the webpage.
  • Item 25. For the Robert M. Lafollette House in Wisconsin. The NHL webpage at http://tps.cr.nps.gov/nhl/result.cfm is titled "Lafollette, Robert M.),Home", reflecting a typo of a stray parenthesis mark and 2 other discrepancies. The NRHP NRIS system name for the site is "Robert M. LaFollette House". The NRHP text document uses the latter name. Also the NHL webpage itself includes two photos with the latter name, too. It seems the NHL webpage should be changed to "Robert M. LaFollette House". Note the suggested changes are to include use of capital F, to use House not Home, and to drop the apparent typo of a parenthesis within the name.
  • Item 26. For the Fort Corchaug Archaelogical Site in New York, the NHL webpage at http://tps.cr.nps.gov/nhl/detail.cfm?ResourceId=-95678437&ResourceType=Site is titled "Fort Corchaug Archaelogical Site". Valid alternative spellings would be "Archaeological" and "Archeological", but "Archaelogical" as used in the NHL webpage is not a word in any available dictionary. The NRIS system uses "Archeological". The NRHP Inventory/Nomination document for the site calls it just "Fort Corchaug site". New York State Office of Parks, Recreation and Historic Preservation calls it "Fort Corchaug Archeological Site". It seems the NHL webpage should be changed to use the word "Archeological".
  • Item 27. Parishes not counties in Louisiana. This item is similar to one previously reported about Boroughs and Census Areas, but not counties in Alaska. There are not counties in Louisiana. The 53 NHLs listed in Louisiana are reported as being located in counties. For example, "Rosedown" is reportedly located in County of West Feliciana, when it is in fact located in West Feliciana Parish.

Apparent errors in NHL webpages not yet reported to the NPS:

The NHL webpage description, and its title, and the same title used in the NHL List document, all seem to refer to the later NRHP historic district, not to the two-building NHL. The title of the NHL webpage and title given in the NHL List is: "Central of Georgia Railroad Shops and Terminal", which seems to be a reasonably edited version for the wrong NRHP. It seems to me that both NHL webpage and NHL List title should be changed to, say, "Central of Georgia Railroad Depot and Trainshed" to describe the NHL buildings, instead. And the NHL webpage description and photos should be changed to describe the buildings, not the 1978 larger district. Note, the 1978 NRHP inventory document is clear that it covers a district of many buildings, viaducts and so on that includes the 2 buildings that are the NHL. The 1978 NRHP was not an expansion of the NHL, it was a separate NRHP.

  • Item. For USCGC Fir (WLM-212), known by the NHL program as FIR (Lighthouse Tender), the NHL webpage at http://tps.cr.nps.gov/nhl/detail.cfm?ResourceId=2141&ResourceType=Structure states that the ship is located in Staten Island, New York, and in Solano County. There is no Solano County in New York State; Staten Island is Richmond County, New York; Solano County is in California. However the ship is now in the state of Washington, not in either Richmond or Solana counties.
  • Item. For the William Sidney Mount House, the artist's middle name seems to be Sidney, but the NHL website uses "Sydney" instead. The NRHP name is also William Sydney Mount House. The New York Times article about the house, and the wikipedia article on the artist William Sidney Mount uses Sidney however. It appears the NHL webpage and the NRHP should be corrected to use Sidney.
  • Item. For the Gen. Nathanael Greene Homestead, refnum 71000014, General Greene's first name is Nathanael, but the National Historic Landmarks webpage "Gen. Nathaniel Greene Homestead" (http://tps.cr.nps.gov/nhl/detail.cfm?ResourceId=1057&ResourceType=Building) mispells his first name as Nathaniel in the title and text of the webpage. This may be an error extended from a typo in the 1972 NRHP Inventory/Nomination document on the site, where it is misspelled as Nathanel in the title but not the main body of the document (where it is correctly spelled as Nathanael).</ref>.
  • Item. For Circular Congregational Church and Parish House, the NHL program name of the site is "Parish House of the Circular Congregational Church", as shown in the NHL webpage [1] and in the NHL program PDF list of NHLs nation-wide. However, this seems to be an error as the NRHP name and the title of the 1973 NRHP Inventory/Nomination document about the site is "Circular Congregational Church and Parish House". Even the NHL webpage seems to describe the church, not the associated parish house. It seems the title is entirely incorrect to focus on the parish house, not the church plus its associated parish house.
  • Item. For Ste. Claire (passenger steamboat), the NHL text is patently incorrect. The NHL webpage states "For 81 years, this vessel carried passengers to Bois Blanc (Bob-Lo) Island, a record of service on a single run unequalled in U.S. maritime history". But, the ship is nearly a twin ship to the Columbia (steamer), so wouldn't they both have comparable years of service? In fact, the full NRHP nomination text for Ste. Claire by Worden contains this statement of significance on page 7, from which the NHL summary webpage was apparently derived: "Ste Claire and her running-mate Columbia are the last two steamers of their type with integrity left in the United States. The pair shared their original run from Detroit to Bob-Lo Island for 81 years, a record of service on a single run unequalled in U.S. maritime history." It is a complete mess-up to take that and then say the Ste Claire has an unequalled run of service. Its run of service is equalled at least by the Columbia. And in fact the Columbia's run seems to have been slightly longer, as it was built first. So the NHL statement is wrong: Ste Claire's run was equalled and probably in fact surpassed. This is clearly an editing error.
  • Item. For Carter Glass House, the NHL webpage title of its NHL webpage is punctuated as "Glass. Carter, House". It should be "Glass, Carter, House" to be consistent with other titles.

[edit] Apparent problems in the NPS system to obtain NHL nominations / NRHP registrations

  • To access NRHP documents for NHLs, open a window onto the National Park Service http://nrhp.focus.nps.gov/natreghome.do?searchtype=natreghome
  • Search for the site, using the NHL name and other old names, to find its original nomination or registration text. The search system is quirky, to say the least, so your providing a direct link to the documents adds value to the article. The quirkiness occurs especially when it yields a list of several possible links. (For example, searching for "Old Main" at Vassar College. Searching on "main" in "New York" yields three or four links, but clicking on "Main Building, Vassar College" does not go through. However, searching on "Vassar" yields just the one link, which goes through). So try searching on a different word so that your desired site comes up first in the list, then the link is more likely to go through to the desired documents. If that doesn't work, try editing a link to the REFNUM-based name that you can figure the document should have, and test that. (For example, "Sagamore" in New York is yielded by the system but the dynamic link provided does not load. However entering the REFNUM based name into a draft article, selecting Preview, then following that link, works to yield an informative 41 page nomination document and a set of 8 beautiful photos, well worth the effort.)
  • Further, there are some NHLs, mostly relative recently designated, for which there are PDF texts of the NHL nominations available. An example is Manitoga. In the regular system, it shows that there are text and photo pdfs available, but one cannot download them. However, the text NHL nomination is available over in the samples area. For NYS, for example, at "Samples" listing for NYS. It would seem best for all of these to be accessible over in the other search area, but they are not. For some, that is all that is available, here (Eagle Island Camp, Elbridge Street Synagogue). For others, over in the other search site there is the NHL nomination and also the photographs, so it would be a mistake to only take this one.

Of the 22 samples listed for New York, I was able to obtain 4 listed there which were not obtainable through the regular system. These are: Camp Eagle Island (listed there as Eagle Island Camp; Eldridge Street Synagogue, Gerrit Smith Estate, and Manitoga. Of the 22 samples, I did not check them all but one, Modesty (sloop), is not in fact available there (Modesty is available through regular search).

URLs like that work for most NHL sites. Note the NHLS in the URL string. However, for Old Bent's Fort, which is another NHL, the URL differs, the URL string includes NRHP in place of NHLS:

Try harder on the St Paul's Cathedral site in Buffalo New York, which has 2 associated REFNUMs, 73002298 and 87002600. The NPS server directed to the 2nd REFNUM, which fails.

Try harder on St. Paul's Church National Historic Site, 66000580, which shows up in the NPS search interface, but that is a NRHP and NHS, but not an NHL

Try Downsville Bridge, an NRHP that is not a NHL, and that does not show up in the NPS search interface, with REFNUM 99000503:

Try Colorado Chautauqua, became NHL in 2006, was NRHP in 1978, displays in NPS interface but cannot connect to it:


[edit] Bellevue in Georgia vs. Bellevue Avenue Historic District in Rhode Island

The photos to accompany NRHP document for Bellevue Avenue Historic District Photos accompanying Bellevue Avenue Historic District: 5 photosPDF (32 KB) includes 2 photos of Bellevue in state of Georgia and 3 photos of Chateau-sur-Mer, one of the Bellevue Avenue mansions in Rhode Island. This photo set is filed under reference number 72000023 of the Bellevue Avenue Historic District.

[edit] Butte-Anaconda Historic District vs. Camp Disappointment in the NPS system

  • Butte-Anaconda Historic District is an NHL in Montana, with refnum 66000438. Searching on it in the NPS system yields neither text of NRHP Inventory-Nomination nor photo set.
  • Camp Disappointment is an NHL in Montana (with similar but different refnum 66000434. Searching on it yields the text for the Butte-Anaconda Historic District instead, although it does yield the correct photos for Camp Disappointment.

[edit] Cedarcroft vs. Carpenter's Hall

In the NPS Focus system, the PDF document at the REFNUM for Cedarcroft National Register of Historic Places Inventory-Nomination 71000693 that should be CedarcroftPDF (32 KB)|date=, 19 |author= |publisher=National Park Service}} instead links to NRHP Inventory-Nomination for Carpenter's Hall in Philadelphia. The corresponding photos document Photo set to accompany Cedarcroft NRHP text (Accompanying 1 photo, exterior, from 1971.PDF (32 KB)</ref>, however, does include a picture of Cedarcroft.

On the other hand, at the refnum for Carpenter's Hall, the Carpenter's Hall text and photo sets appear properly.


[edit] Lightship No. 83 Relief vs. Lightship WAL-605 Relief

Note NRHP text and photos for Lightship No. 83 "Relief" are available on-line at the National Park Service, but mistakenly under the refnum 89002462 that belongs to Lightship WAL-605 Relief, instead of under the correct refnum 75001852. NRHP text and photos for Lightship WAL-605 seem unavailable on-line.

[edit] Ringwood Manor vs. Raton Pass in the NPS system

[edit] Riverby vs. Slabsides NHLs in the NPS system

  • Riverby and Slabsides are two distinct properties associated with the life of John Burroughs. They are located about a mile apart, in West Park, New York. They were both declared National Historic Landmarks on November 24, 1968, and they were assigned consecutive REFNUMs in the Register of Historic Places.
  • In the NHL system, Riverby gets REFNUM 68000035; Slabsides is 68000034
  • In the NRIS system, Riverby gets REFNUM 68000035; Slabsides is 68000034
  • In the National Register search system, searching on "Riverby" yields "Burroughs, John, Riverby Studio". However the PDF text and photo files that are served up, with refnum 68000035 within their URL / filename, describe "Slabsides". Searching on "Slabsides" yields nothing. So currently the Riverby text and photos are unavailable, on-line.

[edit] Juliette Gordon Low District

Regarding Juliette Gordon Low Historic District, which has refnum 66000276. The NRHP Inventory/Nomination text filed under that number is that of another NHL, Fort James Jackson (Fort James Jackson text is also available under its correct reference number). The accompanying photos are of the Low district. See Incorrect text (that of Fort James Jackson when it should be Juliette Gordon Low District and see Photos to accompany NRHP Inventory-Nomination (text not available on-line): Photos, exterior and interior, from 1870, 1907, 1920, 1980, and 1986.

The NHL summary (or the NHL list?) mentions that 2006 documentation is available, and in fact a sample nomination for it is available here.

[edit] NRHP photos but not text, in the NPS system

CHECK IF THEY'RE AVAILABLE IN THE NOMINATIONS AREA. SOMETIMES TEXT IS IN NOMINATIONS AREA, while photos under regular system. For example, Sheldon Jackson School in Alaska.

  • For Florence Mills House in NYC, the accompanying photo set is provided but not the NRHP inventory/nomination/registration text itself.
  • For Buttolph-Williams House in CT, the accompanying photo set is provided but not the NRHP inventory/nomination/registration document text itself.
  • For Russell Henry Chittenden House in CT, refnum 75001944, the accompanying photo set is provided but not the NRHP inventory/nomination/registration document text itself.
  • For Connecticut Agricultural Experiment Station in CT, the accompanying photo set is provided but not the NRHP inventory/nomination/registration document text itself.
  • For USS North Carolina (BB-55), in North Carolina, refnum 82004893, the accompanying photo set is provided but not the NRHP inventory/nominaton/registration document text itself.
  • For Ten Chimneys, in Wisconsin, refnum 03001042, the accompanying photo set is provided but not the NRHP inventory/nomination/registration document.
  • For Thomas A. Greene Memorial Museum in Wisconsin, refnum=93001615, the accompanying photo set is provided but not the NRHP inventory/nomination/registration document

[edit] NRHP document scan incomplete

[edit] Error in Designation of 220 W. 135th St. as Florence Mills House NHL

From the Florence Mills House article: "There is contention that the actual address of her home was 220 West 133rd Street, and that a mistake was perpetuated from a photo of the house being mislabelled as being on West 135th Street in a New York Evening Journal article at the time of her death.[1] The 220 West 133rd Street building has also been demolished and replaced.[1] The mistake in landmarking the West 135th Street address is acknowledged implicitly by the National Park Service, in stating that "For a number of years, this four-story row house was thought to be Mills home for most of her tragically short life".[2]"

[edit] Location of Ships

Ships designated NHLs are movable. Where is Nantucket (lightship)? See talk page for that article. It is NHL listed in Bridgeport CT, but last reported in Oyster Bay, New York in January 2007, and planned to be moved to Staten Island. The Fir (ship) is NHL listed in New York, but reportedly in Seattle. The current List of National Historic Landmarks in New York reports on both, counting the Nantucket as being in New York State and the Fir as being a former NYS landmark.

Does the NHL summary page describe where the ship was located at time of designation? It seems that the NHL summary should perhaps be clear about that, and/or report also on updates. There are probably not very many ships that are NHLs (how many?) and they do not move very often (how often?).

[edit] Apparent Discrepancies in NRHP and NHL Dates

[edit] One Year Difference In NRHP and NHL Dates

Often a landmark receives its NRHP listing and its NHL designation on the same day. Just a few of many possible examples where this has happened are:

There are a number of cases where an official date for NRHP listing is exactly one year different than an official date reported for NHL listing. Wikipedia articles on NHLs may report both dates, drawn from two official sources but reported together within the NRHP infobox. The juxtaposition makes it easy to note cases when the NRHP was given on the same day and month, but year different by one year, vis-a-vis the NHL date. This gives rise to the question whether there is an error in one of the dates. Among the NYS NHLs, these include the following (reported in January 3 batch):

  • Item 9. Christeen (sloop), in NYS: NHL date December 4, 1992 vs. NRHP date December 4, 1991.
  • Item 10. Nash (tugboat), in NYS: NHL date of 04 December 1992; NRHP date 04 December 1991.
  • Item 11. USS Hornet (CV-12) in Alameda California, for which the wikipedia article stated NHL was 1991, NRHP was 12/4/1991, but NHL summary gives 12/4/1992

Unreported items:

  • Item. Robert Smalls House in Beaufort, South Carolina. The NHL webpage-reported NHL date (here) is May 30, 1973, but NRIS NRHP date added is May 30, 1974. The NHL nomination form is dated December 1973, which would be consistent with an NHL declaration in 1974. It appears the NHL webpage date is wrong by 1 year.

[edit] Other difference in NRHP and NHL date

Potential discepancies reported in batch of January 3 are numbered items:

Unreported items:

  • Summerseat (Morrisville, Pennsylvania): NHL webpage reports designated as NHL: 17 July 1965, but NRIS reports added to NRHP: 17 July 1971. NRHP Reference#: 71000685. Since a 1965 NHL should have been added to NRHP on October 15, 1966 when NRHP started, and the 2 reports state the same day and month, it seems likely that the NHL date is wrong and should be 17 July 1971.

[edit] Post October 15, 1966, Having NHL date before NRHP date

Potential discrepancies reported in batch of January 3 are numbered items:

Unreported items:

  • Waynesborough, the Gen. Anthony Wayne House in Pennsylvania, was Designated as NHL: 28 November 1972 but was Added to NRHP: 07 March 1973.
  • Hayes Plantation in North Carolina, reportedly designated as NHL: 07 November 1973 but not added to NRHP until 26 February 1974, per NRIS. NRHP Reference#: 74001341

[edit] Naming of certain NHLs

[edit] Exchange vs. Exchange Building, in Virginia

The NHL webpage and the NHL list article give "Exchange" as the name, but NRHP text document gives "Exchange Building" or "The Exchange" and one other alternative name. "Exchange Building" seems preferable to merely "Exchange". Wikipedia article now is Exchange Building

[edit] Parish House vs. Circular Church, in South Carolina

For the Circular Congregational Church and Parish House, the NRIS name is that, the NRHP Inventory/Nomination document is that. But the NHL webpage for the site gives name "Parish House of the Circular Church" and shows pictures only of the Parish House. Hmm, not clear if there is a mistake here or not. It could be the nomination of the whole was denied. Need some further document on the decision to name the parish house a NHL, but not the rest. Note, the NHL date and NRHP date are the same date in 1973 or so.

[edit] Chautauqua Institution

  • For what the NHL names Chautauqua Historic District, the prefered name is Chautauqua Institution Historic District, per discussion back and forth on Doncram talk page and talk page of another wikipedia user. The NHL name on webpage and in the PDF listing is the same. The NRHP document reflecting close knowledge of the site, however, is Chautauqua Institution Historic District (confirm?).

[edit] Friends Meeting Houses

  • Meetinghouse is used in New York and Wisconsin and perhaps other NHL webpages, while Meeting House is the prefered term. Per discussion back and forth on Doncram talk page or the Old Friends' Meeting House talk page, and on talk page of another wikipedia user.

[edit] KY NRHP info

From Talk of Louisville KY wikiproject:"I recently learned of an excellent way to get information on any NRHP in Kentucky. You can just call the Kentucky Heritage Council at (502) 564-7005 and ask for Marty Perry. He will e-mail you a PDF on any property you want, which contains 10+ pages of information on the property's history and historical importance, as well as it's architectural importance. They include plenty of footnotes, meaning the information in the PDF will be totally acceptable for Wikipedia as it's from published sources (the PDF itself probably counts as a published source anyway, due to the NHRP process, they're archived in various libraries on Microfilm). Most properties have 5+ pictures as well, which I believe to be in the public domain as it's through the National Park Service, a federal level agency, but don't quote me on that.

Just to avoid getting Wikipedia a bad rap with them, I remind you that this is a really cool service they don't have to provide (they could make you go to the library and print off microfilm), so please be nice to Mr. Perry. --W.marsh 22:51, 23 June 2007 (UTC)".


[edit] References

  1. ^ a b Florence Mills.com
  2. ^ Places Where Women Made History: Florence Mills House, at National Park Service, downloaded 9/13/2007