Talk:Don Dunstan/Archive1

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Contents

[edit] Expansion

I'll be significantly adding to this article in the next few weeks / months. If Dunstan is of particular interest to any editors, I'd greatly appreciate any input regarding my additions - he's got a very controversial place in the history books. michael talk 06:20, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I'll try and help out. It'd be great if we could have quality articles on both Dunstan and Playford IV, the two most dominant people in our history.--cj | talk 08:16, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Structure

Intro

  1. Early life
  2. Ascent to power
  3. The Dunstan Decade
    1. Election Wins
    2. Festival State
    3. Social Reform
    4. Cultural Change
    5. Electoral Reform
  4. Life after Politics
  5. Legacy

Current plan - feel free to make changes. michael talk 07:14, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Looks good to me. Rebecca 09:28, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Making Dunstan into a FAC had been part of my long term plan (after finishing the rest of the South Australian Premiers). Good start and I will be helping where I can. This may be down the track a bit but some suitable images would be great and the image of him in pink hot pants on the steps of Parliament House ideal but we may have to dig for them. --Roisterer 12:39, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Specially tailored pink shorts if I can remember correctly! A character. michael talk 14:51, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

  • Don Dunstan, Politics and Passion: Selected Essays from the Adelaide Review, John Spoehr, Bookends Books, Adelaide, 2000 - got it
  • Felicia: The Political Memoirs of Don Dunstan, Don Dunstan, Macmillan, Melbourne, 1981 - just purchased it
  • The Dunstan Decade, Andrew Parkin and Alan Patience (Editors), Longman Cheshire Pty. Ltd, Melbourne, 1981 - haven't got it
  • Playford to Dunstan, Neal Blewett and Dean Jaensch, Cheshire Publishing Ltd, Melbourne, 1971 - got it
  • Don Dunstan: The first 25 years in Parliament, Richard Yeeles, Hill of Content Publishing Company Pty. Ltd, Melbourne, 1978 - got it

Any others that you can suggest? michael talk 12:38, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Hm. These resources may be of some use if you can track them down. A bit of a search also came up with this book, which sounds potentially useful. Rebecca 13:34, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Cheers, I don't know how easy it'll be to grab the university records, but I'll definitely try to find that book. michael talk 14:10, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
They're not just university records, though - it lists the date and paper and page of all the newspaper articles/biographies, if you (or I) can be bothered looking them up by normal means. Anything else that's really crucial there is quite possibly in the National Library archives, too. Rebecca 01:00, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
I've got a feeling I'll have to schedule another trip to the State Library. Oh, well. michael talk 02:53, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
For a critical view of Dunstan, you may wish to check out It's Grossly Improper by Des Ryan and Mike McEwen (there's a copy at the SA State Library). Additionally, the book A Liberal awakening: the LM story [by] Steele Hall [and others] will probably include critical comments on Dunstan (it's been a while since I read it). Even if this is not the case, I recommend the book as an interesting document on 70s politics in South Australia. The State Library also has a copy. The article is looking great. --Roisterer 14:05, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
I ended up buying a copy of Felicia (signed too!) and its well worth it, just for the read itself - it'll come especially handy when I get to the 'Dunstan Decade' section. Walter Crocker's book on Playford dedicates an entire section on Dunstan (almost completely negative) but I will see if I can find those two you have suggested. Thanks for the comments regarding the article. :) michael talk 14:36, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Subdivisions

Is there any reason for the particular subdivisions of the Dunstan Decade section? It seems a little strange to have seperate subdivisions for the relatively minor (in the scheme of things) changes with festivals and the role of the governor, and then to cram everything else in an "other section". It seems to me that it might be better to take this chronologically (or to go by the above five-section plan). Rebecca 14:22, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

They'll probably disappear. I just need to organise my information, and there's a lot of it. It'll probably end up chronological. michael talk 14:40, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Images

There is going to be a big problem in regard to obtaining images for this article. There are next to none online, and I have no others I can easily access. Any suggestions? michael talk 06:18, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Flinders University was endowed with the Dunstan Collection in 1988 by the man himself. There is an Online Photographic Database. However, beware of copyright and conditions of access. I think the copyright of most images is held by the Advertiser. The Don Dunstan Foundation might be able to help out if a request is put to them. Also, you could try the South Australiana Database of the State Library.--cj | talk 06:56, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Legacy

I don't think I should include this section. Its contents should be removed or integrated into the rest of the article if possible. There's too much a chance of original research - whether positive or negative. Any comments? michael talk 15:06, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] query arising from FAR

"liberal conservative Liberal and Country League (LCL)"—I wonder whether the epithet can be piped to just "conservative". I'm sure that it's the way the coalition would have described itself then, and would today too. That would avoid the cumbersome repetition of "liberal". Tony 04:04, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] EXCELLENT article

Wow. Just wow. This article is incredibly detailed and very well written. My congratulations go to beneaththelandslide aka michael. Very well done and top notch effort! Timeshift 12:02, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Is this going to go on FAC? I think it's been ready for a while now. Rebecca 00:35, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm just waiting for the peer review to end. Once that's done, I'll tidy up the fair-use rationales on the images and then it'll go on FAC. michael talk 00:41, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dunstan's sexuality

My personal view that Dunstan is gay, or at least bisexual; I have no doubts whatsoever. However, he never officially came out and declared himself to be so. In fact, when 'It's Grossly Improper' was released, he denied all of it as the work of a cocaine addict (which Ceruto was). As far as I know, nowhere in the books has it outright said 'Dunstan is gay'. I can remember a reference to an 'ambiguous sexuality' in a newspaper article though.

And as for telling me to "read the article", I wrote the article. I researched the article. I read countless books on the man. I don't need an activist coming on here and tooting his horn needlessly and telling me how I need to read my own piece of work. michael talk 02:56, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Well there is a contradiction here. As our IP editor friend points out, the article reads "In 1986 he met his future partner, Stephen Cheng, with whom he opened a restaurant called "Don's Table" in 1994. He lived with Cheng in their Norwood home until his death from cancer on February 6, 1999.". If that's accurate those categories belong. If not that bit of article is problematic (or need to reflect any ambiguity in their living arrangement that may be present). WjBscribe 03:00, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
The point is that Dunstan never openly identified as homosexual or an GLBT activist; in fact, as Michael mentions, he actually rejected such labels in at least one instance. Hence, the categories are inappropriate. However, tagging this article as within the scope of WP:LGBT is somewhat appropriate given Dunstan was significant in homosexual law reform.--cj | talk 03:03, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes, Cheng was his partner. His business partner and his companion. But as for a romantic, sexual or whatever relationship, it is simply unknown and ambiguous. We don't have fact or proof on the matter. What we know is that Cheng was a partner and this is mentioned. 'Ambiguous' certainly is the key word here, and if anything could be said, an 'ambiguous sexuality' would be it. I agree with CJ regards the LGBT project inclusion. michael talk 03:06, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Stephen Cheng was his partner in every sense of the word. Justice Kirby was quite clear on the matter at the NSW launch of the Dunstan Foundation on 28 July 1999. As to tagging, at least LGBT activist is quite appropriate. 150.203.2.85 03:07, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Kirby is not an authority on Dunstan's private life. And Dunstan was never an GLBT activist.--cj | talk 03:09, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Considering Kirby knew Dunstan for over 30 years, I'd dispute that. 150.203.2.85 01:50, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah the project tag is fine given his role in rights reform anyway. But as I see it, either:

  1. He had a documented relationship with a man that lasted an number of years, in which case the LGBT people tag is appropriate (I agree the activism one isn't), or
  2. He did not, in which case the section I quoted above needs to be adjusted, perhaps to "business partner".

As I see it, if there is controversy about his sexual orientation which was more than just gossip, NPOV requires the extent of that to be conveyed- though without reaching our own conclusions and citing reliable sources. WjBscribe 03:12, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Philip Adams wrote that he "urged Don Dunstan to publicly profess his homosexuality, so as to spike the guns of gossiping conservatives seeking to destroy his premiership".[1] The gossip was around while he was still Premier, and not just because of the pink shorts! At the opening of the 2002 Gay Games, Justice Kirby said people like Robert Helpmann and "future premier" Don Dunstan frequented well known gay dance clubs such as the Purple Onion in the early 1970s.[2] 150.203.2.85 03:18, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

This obit made it pretty clear what team he batted for. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 09:25, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

He was gay "Openly gay former Premier of South Australia Don Dunstan has died of cancer at the age of 72."[3] "The courts hosted trials for men accused of gay sex before South Australia became the first state to decriminalise homosexual sex, under gay premier Don Dunstan in 1975."[4] "there were two periods 1967-68 and 1970-79, where we had an openly gay Premier, Don Dunstan"[5] "Australia has had at least one gay state Premier, Don Dunstan in SA, but the truth of his sexuality wasn’t revealed til long after he left office."[6] "Ex-premier Dunstan's long-time lover in payout plea"[7] <--- Direct quote from Stephen Cheng.

He was an activist "He was also a leader in the fight for gay and lesbian rights."Senate Hansard, p1927

150.203.2.85 01:50, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't those refs are unbiased, but we don't need them. Maybe I'm being naive here, but how can a man with a male partner not fit the GLBT category? Rocksong 02:24, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Please don't remove information about the Special Branch "pink files". They were the very reason Dunstan sacked Salisbury, for misleading Parliament about their existence. 150.203.2.85 03:06, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Disappointment regarding deletion of factual material

I place on the record my disappointment in the deletion of factual material regarding Don Dunstan.

Away from politics, Dunstan had a wide range of interests, which are not incorporated in the article.

If another contributor has concerns about "haphazard" style, I would have thought the answer is to perform diligent rewriting to harmonise the material, rather than merely deleting it as a matter of personal taste!Fitzpatrickjm 09:42, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Such lines as "Whilst he was State Premier, he published a cookery book, inwhich [sic] he advocated the use of chicken." are not of encyclopedic value. michael talk 09:47, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
I consider this comment somewhat dismissive, and ignorant of the importance of food and drink in his life- not only was Dunstan the author of an influential cookery book, he also was an advocate of food education, a restauranteur and a gardener.

Also, other factual material has been deleted.

I consider your actions in deleting factual material are indicative of an unwillingness to consider the role of an encyclopedia to present facts.Fitzpatrickjm 11:18, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

I think the fact that he published a cookery book (and the other stuff) deserves to go back in, and I think "Other interests" is a good heading for it. But I don't understand the point of mentioning chicken. Suffice to say he published a cookery book. Peter Ballard 13:10, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
But all these things are already mentioned in the text. They're already there! michael talk 13:17, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
No, they're not! I request that this information be reinserted. Anyone who has read Don Dunstan's books "Don Dunstan's Australia" and "Don Dunstan's Cookbook" will have gained an idea of Mr Dunstan's broad range of interests outside politics. Sadly, neither of these books are cited as references in the article.Fitzpatrickjm 11:18, 28 May 2007 (UTC) 11:15, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
His cookbook is mentioned. Cooking as a hobby is mentioned. I am aware of 'Don Dunstan's Australia', but it is a book that seems to have little to no publicity. michael talk 11:24, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Date formats

Looking at the mishmash of date formats in this article, may I take the opportunity to remind editors of the guidelines found in WP:DATE. --Pete 09:50, 27 May 2007 (UTC)