Talk:Domestication of the horse

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Is this original work? -- Zoe

The conclusion ought to be that mankind early understood the importance of breeding good stallions since they can produce much more foals than a mare can.

How is this stallion producing foals without a mare? Clearly I'm missing something. Ubermonkey

I.e. a single stallion could fertilize many different mares, bearing offspring, while a single mare could not bear more foals during the time she is pregnant. Maybe it could be rewritten.
Cheyenne family using a horse-drawn travois, 1890
Cheyenne family using a horse-drawn travois, 1890

Contents

[edit] Bit wear on teeth

It seems to me that the idea that the use of a bit implies the invention either of riding or of wheels ignores the use of the sledge. The timber dray (Horse-drawn vehicles - Find: dray), the troika and other sleighs used horses for traction without the use of wheels.

A light sledge suitable for carrying the folded homes of nomads could be and was quite easily made of two suitably curved poles to act as both shafts and runners. On snow, ice or grass, they would not wear very rapidly and would bear the weight of the goods so that only friction need be overcome. See Travois. (RJP 19:22, 5 March 2006 (UTC))

"Theories from DNA evidence"

this section needs a little scientific help. i read the report on genetic variation and the authors do not support either the single domestication theory or the multiple domestication theory, but they do seem to lean towards the first. what they actually proved (more or less) is that domesticated horses decend from multiple herds rather than one herd. this could still indicate one orginal domestication site, and addition breeding into the original line with new local herds as the horse-breeding knowlege spreads from culture to culture. this seems to be their preferred explaination, but they don't have proof of that, only proof (within the limits of the small DNA samples they had access to, and very limited wild DNA) that there was more that one original herd.

also the part regarding one original stallion is a little confused. with any given sexually-reproducing species you can trace back Y-chomosome inheritence to a common male ancestor. because the Y-chomosome is inherited soley from the father, there is an unbroken line backwards in time of father-to-son inheritance. this doesn't work in forwards in time, though, because some males do not have any male offspring and therefor their Y-chomosome line died out. so tracing Y-chomosome inheritence back far enough, you will awalys come up with one single male somewhere back in time that is the Y-chomosomal "adam" for that species. there were other males alive at the same time, but none that had an unbroken male line. the other male's genetic information can still be passed into the gene pool through female children, so they do contribute to the species. in humans, the Y-chromosomal adam lived about 75,000 years ago or so.

the same thing can be done with the mitochondrial dna for female inheritance, as mitochondria is inherited soley through the mother. humans have a mitochondrial "eve" about 150,000 years ago.

finally, there's another interesting tidbit to through in the mix. apparently there were original many different species of wild horse. all but one species (possible two, depending on how you classify the species) were rendered extinct about 10,000 years ago, almost certainly through human hunting. so, how did our domesticated horse survive from 10,000 years ago until 4,000 years ago when the first chariots show up? it seems unlikely that they could have survived extinction on their own when all the other species died, so it has been suggested that they were already being kept as food or pet animals from that time onwards.

~~slamorte

Such a clear explanation might be employed in re-editing the article itself. Why not log in and get to work on it, slamorte? --Wetman 17:30, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article still a mess

There is some material that covers the same information but stated differently in different places. There is a need for some consolidation and cleanup. I've tried, but it's daunting, and I don't have the time to locate some necessary information to be sure the material is stated accurately and the controversies each stated fairly.

It is important to note that size actually doesn't matter...the large heavy horse wasn't needed for mounted cavalry until the "invention" of the fully armored knight...look at Ancient Greek art--those fellows clearly were on small horses, look at how they carried their feet--wrapped around the barrel or hanging underneath.

It also floors me that there is even a debate over whether horses were first ridden or driven. Aren't any anthropologists horsemen? Some of their theories defy logic and proof even in the present day that light cavalry is extremely effective. I mean, duh...people rode first. Ever try to train a horse? MUCH easier to teach them to be ridden than to drive. At least as long as you aren't afraid of falling off... Montanabw 16:22, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

your revert is apparently uninformed of a difference between the Bronze Age (1500 BC) and the Iron Age (500 BC). Of course the Iron Age horses were still "small", and it is undisputed that they were used for light cavarly, especially mounted archers, from at least 800 BC. The horses in 2000 BC may however have been still smaller, and your argument about Roman cavalry (late Iron Age) is completely irrelevant to the Bronze Age. There is simply no evidence of cavalry in the 2nd millennium BC. The Sigynnae are actually a good example of a steppe people apparently preserving the Bronze Age state of things into the Iron Age. We are not discussing "Icelander" size (14hh): of course these may be ridden even in warfare. I suppose we are looking at 10-12hh (Caspian pony): you certainly may trot around sitting on these (thus, I have no problem accepting that herdsmen were riding them long before the chariot was invented), but I have serious doubts about galopping into battle. dab (ᛏ) 15:23, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Do not assume that I am "uninformed." That's sort of a slam by Wiki guidelines. I think, however, that your clarification of horses as used in warfare versus domestication generally does the trick. I can't find the source now, but there ARE cave paintings of humans on horseback that predate the Bronze age...however, I will agree that the image was not of a warrior, and that evidence for use of mounted horses in warfare is a different kettle of fish.Montanabw 16:39, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

that's all I meant to say :) I assume it is a pretty natural idea to try and sit on a horse's back as soon as you catch one, even in the paleolithic. The "riding vs. driving" debate was misrepresented by alleging the "driving" side claims no human had sat on a horse before 2000 BC. That's of course nonsense. The point is that the horse did not become an efficient means of transport, much less of warfare, before that time. dab (ᛏ) 17:35, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

looking into Tarpan, it appears possible the horses were already between 12 and 13 hh at the time of domestication. That's still "pony" size, of course, but still noticeably larger than the Caspian pony. I don't have a definite source for this though. dab (ᛏ) 11:29, 22 August 2006 (UTC)


WOW, is about all I can say for this article. Might I suggest a different approach, think of it as highlights in horse domestication. An encyclopedic entry on the subject should focus on an overview of the topic and not a thorough discussion on each theory. A timeline approach acknowledging the early theories and going all the way to present day is what I expected. I can see that a lot of effort went into developing a thorough discussion on the various theories for horse domestication and they should not be lost, they can go into separate to cover each theory with its strengths and weaknesses. Mike padilla 03:20, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

You might be onto something. Maybe the thing to do is to create "sandbox" off of this page and start a more or less new article there, importing it over to the "real" space when those who care deem it ready. A better organizational approach is definitely where to start. That said, there's nothing wrong with a detailed article, just that there certainly is a line between detailed and bogged down, which is the problem here. And moving some theories to their own article might work if they got to be more than a paragraph or two. Well, anyone who wants to start the sandbox, I'm in. Montanabw(talk) 04:56, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] mrcas

I am sorry, I appreciate the point about "gibberish", but great care should be taken that 'dumbing down' things for readers unwilling to click on wikilinks isn't done at the expense of accuracy. Which is clearly the case in the following:

Investigations on the Y chromosome, published in 2004 suggests that all horses, big and small, may descend from one single stallion. On the other hand, similar studies showed that there are at least a hundred different maternal ancestors of the modern horse, though fewer as studies go deeper in time.

The study in question certainly didn't "suggest that all horses may descend from a single stallion". That would be stating the obvious. We may state the obvious for our readers' benefit, but we may not allege that a research paper did so. I imagine that the paper much rather suggested that "the Y-mrca, that is, the stallion from which all horses great and small, pretty and ugly, alive today are descended" did in fact live at such-and-such a time (later than the Neolithic). Similarly, it is nonsense to state that "there are at least a hundred different maternal ancestors of the modern horse". I imagine that the intended reading here is that "studies show that maternal lines around the presumed time of domestication do not converge to a single individual." It is again clear and not the study's result, that if you go further back in time (how far?), these maternal lines will, in fact, converge to a single strand. Again, I am not opposed to some dumbing-down (as long as the reader isn't being talked down to), but if you're going to do that, you have to take care to give facts precedence over quality of prose. dab (ᛏ) 20:09, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Having not read the study, I was taking what was written, just trying to blend different explanations into something readable for an adequately educated member of the general public. I certainly agree corrections and the style could be improved. However, I have a law degree and 10 years of higher education, including some life science. But I'm not a scientist. This makes my eyes cross and gives me a headache! Clarity and good, readable style isn't "dumbing down, that's my only point. Also, wiki links can be "piped" so that what is said in the article flows nicely. It's nice to get the gist WITHOUT having to read 10 wiki articles, especially when some people still live with a dialup ISP. So how about this: Don't cut other material, but write down the facts, explain why they matter, make the point that all this is about (which is, I assume, that all domesticated horses apparently came from one progenitor stallion?) Then I can try to improve the style so it can be read by people other than geneticists??Montanabw 21:53, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
I haven't seen the paper myself, but as far as I understand, the point is that all domesticated horses might descend from one domesticated stallion: the entire point is that the Y-mrca appears to have lived after the presumed date of domestication, while the mt-mrca lived before that time. But since we both haven't seen the paper, we have to be extra careful not to introduce unverified claims. Now, again, please accept my apologies if I seemed rash: I did not remove the passage because I found it 'dumbed down', but because it contained factual errors. Wikipedia was slow as molasses for me yesterday, or I might have tried rephrasing it. I am all for clarity and readable style. It's just that we are trying to discuss an expert paper we haven't even seen, and since the concept of mrca is rather complicated to explain to someone encoutering it for the first time, there is a real danger the paragraph will be seriously sidetracked if we try to do it here. Of course I support spelling out the abbreviation, linking to most recent common ancestor, but people interested in figuring out the details will have no choice but to go and read that article. dab (ᛏ) 08:34, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Works for me. Overall, the article is getting better. The trick, as always, is to write factually but for a general audience. If you think Wiki was slow, try it on a dialup in a rural area!

[edit] import/ToC

I've imported the material on horse domestication on Samara culture (which did not deal with the Samara culture in particular); the material now present in the article may have to be re-organized in a better thought-out ToC. dab (ᛏ) 09:29, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

I tweaked it some, it will need more. The original article already had some disorganization and redundancy, but better to have it all in one place and then edit than leave something out that is important.


[edit] Too Homogenous

4ex, it says

The horse of the Iron Age was still relatively small, perhaps 12.2 to 14.2 hands high or 1.27 to 1.47 meters, measured at the withers. This was shorter overall average height than modern riding horses, which range from 14.2 to 17.2 hh (1.47 to 1.78 meters).

The horse of the Iron Age in which areas? "Iron Age" is a junk designation anyway. One people are in the Iron Age when another are in a Bronze Age and a third in a Stone Age. Since I don't know what the original writer is referencing, I can't correct it. This sounds like, say, a Parthenon pony, but doesn't apply to horses elsewhere at the same time, like the Persian's Nisaeans, 16-17 hh, or the horses of the Sea of Grass, 14.2-15.3 hands (both from excavated remains). Am I allowed to rewrite this from the ground up, since I can't just tweak it?

This is such a common failing of tech history articles: assuming one culture represents all cultures, whether in horses, bows, or plants gathered.HollyI 20:14, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

How about using this talk page as a "sandbox" for a section rewrite and you can also provide your sources. Those of us who care can check your work and give you our "blessing" (grin) when it seems ready to incorporate into the main article. (I created the header, below) Keep in mind that there are multiple theories out there and sometimes it is important to "teach the controversy" by mentioning all sides. (For example, the "were horses driven or ridden first" controversy... sigh, don't get me started on THAT one!) As for "Iron Age," it may be appropriate to clarify that we are talking primarily about ancient Mesopotamia and the immediate surrounding areas. There were no horses in North America at the time, so that area needs not be noted, and most sources I have seen place initial domestication as starting with either the Scythians or some of the peoples of the Fertile Cresecnt itself and spreading fairly quickly from there. (Dates of domestication in China and India are worth knowing...)Montanabw(talk) 21:40, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
However, before you state that ANY ancient horses were actually 17 hands tall, your source needs to be impeccable, as there are certainly few if any sources making that claim. (and a LOT of folks digging up and analysing ancient sites know squat about horses, hence the infamous driving or riding controversy...) I just spent a whole bunch of time becoming painfully aware that modern research pretty much shows that the "Great Horse" of the middle ages was nowhere close to the size of the modern horse, as is often argued. Montanabw(talk) 21:40, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] I've started a general edit to the entire article

I am an archaeologist who specializes in Eurasian steppe prehistory and specifically in the prehistory of human-horse relationships. I have started a general edit of the article on the Domestication of the Horse. As this is my first Wikipedia effort, I am still uncertain about some technical editing matters, particularly on uploading images. The article could use some added images, and I have many. At this point, 10/25/07, I have made substantial changes to the Introduction, the section on the Predecessors of the domestic horse, and the section on Genetics. I am not offended by rewrites myself, so feel free to change my changes. I am about to begin on the Archaeological Evidence, which is my actual area of expertise. I have, however, read a lot of literature on equid taxonomy and genetics, and I have added references to those sections. This will be an ongoing project perhaps for the next week, whenever I have the time. Gohs 16:46, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Overally, you are doing a job that is much needed, but be careful about readability and POV. See my edits and perhaps you should consider using the "sandbox" area I have created below for drafting material, though it's also OK to be "bold." Some of your material is very good, and when it is sourced, it is better. I am doing a lot of wordsmithing for readability, though. This is an encyclopedia, after all, not a learned treatise (whenever you have sources that can be linked to the web, try to add a link, even if it is a subscription database. Also try to add ISBN numbers for books) However, there are competing theories, and the Eurasian steppes are not the only place where domestication may have occurred, and thus you need to watch your POV. I have no idea if you are also a person who knows horses at all, but I'm sure you realize that some "expert" theories out there are clearly full of shit. (Like the one that argues that horses were driven before being ridden). Montanabw(talk) 17:23, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Follow up: Went through and mostly just wordsmithed. However, saw a couple of things you need to watch.
  1. Please do not blank most questionable material without first using the {{fact}} tag to allow other editors a chance to defend their material. You will note that I threw that tag on some sections, and not necessarily because I question all of them (some I agree with) but because they DO need a cited source.
  2. You can delete or hide rather than tag things that seem beyond the pale, but usually only if the material is potentially rather offensive and apt to trigger edit wars. (Like I tossed the material about the Blackfeet and the magpies!) For example, today I hid one rather outlandish theory that was in there. I didn't delete it because maybe there's a source, but it's still a loopy theory that if it IS sourced, (like the Blackfeet and the magpies) I will go out and find the sources that say otherwise. (Mares, no matter what their position in a herd, do not "submit" to stallions unless receptive to breeding, ask the large number of people with stallions who have suffered severe injuries from being kicked by mares. And the docile stallion theory is also nuts, bachelor herds have mild behavior, but even a very well-mannered stallion is going to act differently in the presence of a mare in estrus. That particular theory just defies all biological sense. But I digress...) Anyway, we also have to work on that Tarpan issue. They really existed, and I haven't the energy to source that stuff now, but maybe read Konik and Heck horse and see what you think. Montanabw(talk) 18:01, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

New note: Please read Wikipedia:Footnotes, part of the problem is that we need to do a little wiki markup language to make footnotes work here the way they are supposed to. I fixed a bunch, you can probably see how it works from there. Montanabw(talk) 22:16, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sandbox for rewrites